Connacht Team Talk Thread VI - Some like it TOH

thomond2006 · 26-01-2021 10:43PM

Clan, you see to stop blaming Frank Murphy for everything.

Bazzo · 26-01-2021 11:00PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Clan, you see to stop blaming Frank Murphy for everything.

Did Frank Murphy put you up to this?

Former Former Former · 26-01-2021 11:58PM

b.gud wrote: »

The OP literally said he is not to blame for the loss, see below

I wasn't talking about one specific poster, just the number of posts along the lines of "now I'm not saying he cost us the game but..." over the last couple of days. I don't think it's fair to call the guy's integrity into question.

27-01-2021 12:00AM

It's time to be Frank here lads, we need to stop blaming Frank for losing games we quite Frankly should be winning ...

Lost Ormond · 27-01-2021 12:01AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

They need to get a couple of more refs in so. This genuinely wouldn't happen in amateur sport or any other professional league. It makes the league look very small time and I am someone who normally defends it. They need to do it quickly and at a minimum, Murphy shouldn't be reffing Connacht when at all avoidable, as it has been frequently in the past.

That takes time. How would you suggest they get more refs to that level?
You cant just push people who may not be ready. At moment IRFU are training refs to higher level than other unions within the league. will take time for other unions to bring through more officials.

In soccer its counties who develop the refs and pro teams etc arent linked.
Rugby the associations are far more linked so its hard to change.
Its a multi nation league. until there is a pro ref from Connacht and more from Ulster and Leinster then this wont change and very hard to force refs through to this level especially before they are ready.

Zzippy · 27-01-2021 12:09AM

Festive Life wrote: »

That takes time. How would you suggest they get more refs to that level?
You cant just push people who may not be ready. At moment IRFU are training refs to higher level than other unions within the league. will take time for other unions to bring through more officials.

In soccer its counties who develop the refs and pro teams etc arent linked.
Rugby the associations are far more linked so its hard to change.
Its a multi nation league. until there is a pro ref from Connacht and more from Ulster and Leinster then this wont change and very hard to force refs through to this level especially before they are ready.

When are you making the step up? And which province will you be affiliated to?

ClanofLams · 27-01-2021 12:15AM

Festive Life wrote: »

That takes time. How would you suggest they get more refs to that level?
You cant just push people who may not be ready. At moment IRFU are training refs to higher level than other unions within the league. will take time for other unions to bring through more officials.

In soccer its counties who develop the refs and pro teams etc arent linked.
Rugby the associations are far more linked so its hard to change.
Its a multi nation league. until there is a pro ref from Connacht and more from Ulster and Leinster then this wont change and very hard to force refs through to this level especially before they are ready.

Every other rugby league in the world manages to avoid this, it isn’t too complicated. As far as I know it only affects Frank Murphy (as in he is the only ex player reffing in the league?) and he only represented two teams.

It’s really not too difficult to avoid the situation of him reffing one of those teams in non Covid times. The league just hasn’t bothered in the past, could have easily sent him to other games (eg he has reffed in Sportsground when he could have reffed in rds) but didn’t.

A league making a major transformation and going into a brand new market should be looking to avoid impressions of potential new fans going “wtf is going on here? this guy played for them
100 times and is now reffing them??” which would be the reaction should it occur.

Edit - just on your general point of not much can be done if prospective refs are ready, if a ref broke their leg or whatever next August I am quite confident no fixtures would be cancelled. Something can be done, the league just hasn’t bothered doing it. That reflects poorly.

ClanofLams · 27-01-2021 12:18AM

Former Former Former wrote: »

I wasn't talking about one specific poster, just the number of posts along the lines of "now I'm not saying he cost us the game but..." over the last couple of days. I don't think it's fair to call the guy's integrity into question.

Connacht performed terribly, were incredibly lucky to be 12 up at half time and did not take advantage of the luck.

From my perspective anyway, this is more a general conversation around the optics of a guy reffing a team he has one hundred caps for. It’s ridiculous.

Lost Ormond · 27-01-2021 12:37AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

Every other rugby league in the world manages to avoid this, it isn’t too complicated. As far as I know it only affects Frank Murphy (as in he is the only ex player reffing in the league?) and he only represented two teams.

It’s really not too difficult to avoid the situation of him reffing one of those teams in non Covid times. The league just hasn’t bothered in the past, could have easily sent him to other games (eg he has reffed in Sportsground when he could have reffed in rds) but didn’t.

A league making a major transformation and going into a brand new market should be looking to avoid impressions of potential new fans going “wtf is going on here? this guy played for them
100 times and is now reffing them??” which would be the reaction should it occur.

The french and english leagues are 1 nation competitions and have had guys ref teams they either live in area etc.
Super Rugby regularly has games with refs from same nation as one team reffing games. If teams saw it as an issue then surely it would be brought up with Greg Garner, ref manager for the competition and a change might happen.

Glen Jackson reffed a super rugby quarter between Jaguares v Chiefs and he used play for them.
We are talking about professional athletes in terms of the refs. Its not like Lions tours of the 50s/60s. The refs cant win regardless. If it wasnt this ref in this situation it would be another ref and something else.
In common with Super Rugby, the PRO14 has a policy of the best officials taking charge of the best games, no matter what country they are from.

Appointments are merit-based, with those who perform well getting the biggest games. Neutrality has always been part of deciding who gets which appointments, but capability is a key factor and if you ask players and coaches they will tell you they want the best official in charge.

The clubs, provinces and regions wanted the situation to evolve on those lines.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/nigel-owens-column-referees-arent-14583825

ClanofLams · 27-01-2021 01:03AM

Festive Life wrote: »

The french and english leagues are 1 nation competitions and have had guys ref teams they either live in area etc.
Super Rugby regularly has games with refs from same nation as one team reffing games. If teams saw it as an issue then surely it would be brought up with Greg Garner, ref manager for the competition and a change might happen.

Glen Jackson reffed a super rugby quarter between Jaguares v Chiefs and he used play for them.
We are talking about professional athletes in terms of the refs. Its not like Lions tours of the 50s/60s. The refs cant win regardless. If it wasnt this ref in this situation it would be another ref and something else.
In common with Super Rugby, the PRO14 has a policy of the best officials taking charge of the best games, no matter what country they are from.

Appointments are merit-based, with those who perform well getting the biggest games. Neutrality has always been part of deciding who gets which appointments, but capability is a key factor and if you ask players and coaches they will tell you they want the best official in charge.

The clubs, provinces and regions wanted the situation to evolve on those lines.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/nigel-owens-column-referees-arent-14583825

I have no issue with refs taking charge of teams from the same country, although obviously ideally it would be welsh reffing games between scottish and irish teams and vice versa etc. Hopefully the league can get to that stage sooner rather than later.

Despite the Glen Jackson example, it's not good enough and more importantly from the perspective of the league, it doesn't look good to have a ref who played for a team now in charge of a game involving them.

I would stand by the point that if Frank Murphy wasn't available next season, no games would be cancelled. It's possible to avoid the situation and it should be avoided.

Lost Ormond · 27-01-2021 01:11AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

I have no issue with refs taking charge of teams from the same country, although obviously ideally it would be welsh reffing games between scottish and irish teams and vice versa etc. Hopefully the league can get to that stage sooner rather than later.

Despite the Glen Jackson example, it's not good enough and more importantly from the perspective of the league, it doesn't look good to have a ref who played for a team now in charge of a game involving them.

I would stand by the point that if Frank Murphy wasn't available next season, no games would be cancelled. It's possible to avoid the situation and it should be avoided.

Its a cross border league now it doesnt have the travel times that super rugby has but it still isnt always feasible to have neutral country refs for all games or even a lot of games right now.
The only way that can change is if there is substantial more refs come through from more countries but thats a long term goal.

ClanofLams · 27-01-2021 01:18AM

Festive Life wrote: »

Its a cross border league now it doesnt have the travel times that super rugby has but it still isnt always feasible to have neutral country refs for all games or even a lot of games right now.
The only way that can change is if there is substantial more refs come through from more countries but thats a long term goal.

I'm not saying that should be done, I said that should be the goal. My only point is that the one ref who is an ex player shouldn't be reffing any of the two teams who he represented and that is obviously possible.

The league has handled it poorly, the first game I recall Murphy reffing was when Muldoon was captain, who captained Murphy when he was at Connacht....I would call it amateur but that wouldn't happen at amateur level to be honest. Numerous players are still at Connacht who were there when he was. Going into new market now the league needs to take small things like this more seriously, only one chance to make a first impression and all that.

Lost Ormond · 27-01-2021 01:28AM

ClanofLams wrote: »

I'm not saying that should be done, I said that should be the goal. My only point is that the one ref who is an ex player shouldn't be reffing any of the two teams who he represented and that is obviously possible.

The league has handled it poorly, the first game I recall Murphy reffing was when Muldoon was captain, who captained Murphy when he was at Connacht....I would call it amateur but that wouldn't happen at amateur level to be honest. Numerous players are still at Connacht who were there when he was. Going into new market now the league needs to take small things like this more seriously, only one chance to make a first impression and all that.

In a very ideal world it could happen but if we want and we should want more former pros to referee and be refereeing at professional level then this ultimately will be part of that.
A policy of neutrality is probably possible, but it there would be compromises in quality and it works against the interests of the countries that have four teams in the competition, Wales and Ireland.

Do you want refs to be criticised for poor performances when neutral and theyre are not up to the mark or to be criticised for the perception that referee errors are caused by basically an accusation of bias

ClanofLams · 27-01-2021 01:37AM

Festive Life wrote: »

In a very ideal world it could happen but if we want and we should want more former pros to referee and be refereeing at professional level then this ultimately will be part of that.
A policy of neutrality is probably possible, but it there would be compromises in quality and it works against the interests of the countries that have four teams in the competition, Wales and Ireland.

Do you want refs to be criticised for poor performances when neutral and theyre are not up to the mark or to be criticised for the perception that referee errors are caused by basically an accusation of bias

I want the Pro14 to succeed. I don't want them to be setting themselves up for easy criticism when Connacht win a tight game against one of the new South African teams and Murphy is referee. I don't want poor optics to affect the league and this is poor optics.

I have no strong preference for ex professional players reffing to be honest, just as they don't always make the best coaches across sport I doubt there is any data to support the theory than ex professional player will be a better referee than an ex AIL player for example.

28-01-2021 10:52AM

So Ulster sign Nakarawa on a one-year deal. I look forward to seeing what NIQ marquee signing the IRFU have for us in store. I won't hold my breath anyways ...

thomond2006 · 28-01-2021 11:00AM

marley45 wrote: »

So Ulster sign Nakarawa on a one-year deal. I look forward to seeing what NIQ marquee signing the IRFU have for us in store. I won't hold my breath anyways ...

Nakarawa is replacing an NIE that is leaving early.
I'd be surprised if Munster or Leinster signed an NIE for what it's worth.

gally74 · 28-01-2021 11:01AM

marley45 wrote: »

So Ulster sign Nakarawa on a one-year deal. I look forward to seeing what NIQ marquee signing the IRFU have for us in store. I won't hold my breath anyways ...

Robbie and Dorris to move home to the West...... if only

connachta · 28-01-2021 11:41AM

SqueakyKneecap wrote: »

Friendy for 2 more years

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/10/27/us/politics/27trump-secondtermsub/merlin_177550761_d3195b11-be3f-427e-8501-d78659f42e2d-jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp

BeardySi · 28-01-2021 11:43AM

SqueakyKneecap wrote: »

Friendy for 2 more years

I badly needed some good news this morning, this was far better than I was expecting

With last season and this being so heavily disrupted by covid he's never really had a chance to string a normal campaign together. Would have been gutted to see him leave before he got a proper crack at something...

its_phil · 28-01-2021 11:58AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Nakarawa is replacing an NIE that is leaving early.
I'd be surprised if Munster or Leinster signed an NIE for what it's worth.

It is just jealousy but jeez it's some leg up Ulster have got up in the last few years compared to out West between Mathewson, Madigan, Murphy, McGrath, and Moore with talk of another Leinster backrow going North.

Throw in Nakarawa now, how are we supposed to catch up with the other 3 provinces? Sam Arnold and Robin Copeland are the only Irish internationals I can remember us signing in the last few years. We've obviously done well to retain the likes of Kieran, Jack, Bundee, Ultan and Quinn as well which requires resources from the IRFU.

thomond2006 · 28-01-2021 11:58AM

Very good news. He inherited a mess from Kieran Keane and has done a good job overall. He's taken players like Oliver and Wootton who were surplus at Munster and gotten a lot from them.

ClanofLams · 28-01-2021 12:10PM

I would say he has done a reasonable job. His recruitment has been good. First year was very positive. Last two years have seen the same recurring problems. Away form and consistency are ongoing issues.

There have been a fair few performances way below acceptable standard in the last couple of seasons, hammerings over in Edinburgh and Cardiff come to mind.

EachSmallChime · 28-01-2021 12:43PM

ClanofLams wrote: »

I would say he has done a reasonable job. His recruitment has been good. First year was very positive. Last two years have seen the same recurring problems. Away form and consistency are ongoing issues.

There have been a fair few performances way below acceptable standard in the last couple of seasons, hammerings over in Edinburgh and Cardiff come to mind.

Completely agree on the above but interesting to see this in the Irish Examiner

Record of Connacht coaches in league and Europe in professional era

Warren Gatland (NZ) (1996 + 1997) P12, won 7 lost 5 (58% win)

Glen Ross (NZ) (1998 - 2000) P12, won 5, lost 7 (42% win)

Steph Nel (SA) (2000 - 2003) P33 won 16 lost 17 (48% win)

Michael Bradley (Ire) (2003- 2010) P186, won 67 lost 112 drew 7 (36% win)

Eric Elwood (Ire) (2010 - 2013) P84 won 29 lost 52 drew 3 (35% win)

Pat Lam (Sam/NZ) (2013-2017) P119 won 57 lost 61 drew 1 (48% win)

Kieran Keane (NZ) (2017-2018) P28 won 12 lost 15 drew 1 (43% win)

Andy Friend (Aust) (2018- present) P61 won 32 lost 29 (52% win)

He's actually the most consistent coach we've had! I would think there are a lot of quick wins in our game under Friendy to really boost that number up.

KBurke85 · 28-01-2021 12:52PM

ClanofLams wrote: »

I would say he has done a reasonable job. His recruitment has been good. First year was very positive. Last two years have seen the same recurring problems. Away form and consistency are ongoing issues.

There have been a fair few performances way below acceptable standard in the last couple of seasons, hammerings over in Edinburgh and Cardiff come to mind.

Away form is not the issue this season. We're perfoming better away than we are at home.

away form is a big issue in rugby as a whole not just connacht

tobdom · 28-01-2021 01:36PM

Delighted that Friend has been retained, I think he's excellent.

It's probably not going to happen this year, with the way things are, but I'd like to see a change of defensive coach. Wilkins has been here 4 years now and I've never been convinced by him - was referenced here recently enough, he arrived to us from a pretty defensively poor Edinburgh.

While I think there are aspects of our defence that have been very good in the last couple of years, scramble defence for example, there's more that continues to be just sub-par at this stage (structured, set-play defence - maul etc.).

There's always an element of player/team responsibility, but it's been too long now and things are pointing towards the coaching.

ionadnapóca · 28-01-2021 01:54PM

EachSmallChime wrote: »

Completely agree on the above but interesting to see this in the Irish Examiner

Record of Connacht coaches in league and Europe in professional era

Warren Gatland (NZ) (1996 + 1997) P12, won 7 lost 5 (58% win)

Glen Ross (NZ) (1998 - 2000) P12, won 5, lost 7 (42% win)

Steph Nel (SA) (2000 - 2003) P33 won 16 lost 17 (48% win)

Michael Bradley (Ire) (2003- 2010) P186, won 67 lost 112 drew 7 (36% win)

Eric Elwood (Ire) (2010 - 2013) P84 won 29 lost 52 drew 3 (35% win)

Pat Lam (Sam/NZ) (2013-2017) P119 won 57 lost 61 drew 1 (48% win)

Kieran Keane (NZ) (2017-2018) P28 won 12 lost 15 drew 1 (43% win)

Andy Friend (Aust) (2018- present) P61 won 32 lost 29 (52% win)

He's actually the most consistent coach we've had! I would think there are a lot of quick wins in our game under Friendy to really boost that number up.

That's a very impressive stat considering the talent available.
Im a little surprised with the criticism Friend has gotten.

He plays an exciting brand on rugby and has overhauled the squad.
Porch has been an outstanding addition & hopefully also Ben O'Donnell.

Most importantly he's sound as a pound!

Bazzo · 28-01-2021 02:31PM

Great news. Even greater news is that he mentioned the redevelopment of the sportsground going ahead in his press release.

connachta · 28-01-2021 02:32PM

SqueakyKneecap wrote: »

I'd be encouraged that even if we can't recruit NIQ's that the signings from the summer have bedded in well.

What happens to Aungier btw?

Badly missed in 2nd half last week

Bazzo · 28-01-2021 02:43PM

EachSmallChime wrote: »

Completely agree on the above but interesting to see this in the Irish Examiner

Record of Connacht coaches in league and Europe in professional era

Warren Gatland (NZ) (1996 + 1997) P12, won 7 lost 5 (58% win)

Glen Ross (NZ) (1998 - 2000) P12, won 5, lost 7 (42% win)

Steph Nel (SA) (2000 - 2003) P33 won 16 lost 17 (48% win)

Michael Bradley (Ire) (2003- 2010) P186, won 67 lost 112 drew 7 (36% win)

Eric Elwood (Ire) (2010 - 2013) P84 won 29 lost 52 drew 3 (35% win)

Pat Lam (Sam/NZ) (2013-2017) P119 won 57 lost 61 drew 1 (48% win)

Kieran Keane (NZ) (2017-2018) P28 won 12 lost 15 drew 1 (43% win)

Andy Friend (Aust) (2018- present) P61 won 32 lost 29 (52% win)

He's actually the most consistent coach we've had! I would think there are a lot of quick wins in our game under Friendy to really boost that number up.

Clearly for our next appointment we should be aiming to get Warren Gatland back.

ClanofLams · 28-01-2021 03:28PM

EachSmallChime wrote: »

Completely agree on the above but interesting to see this in the Irish Examiner

Record of Connacht coaches in league and Europe in professional era

Warren Gatland (NZ) (1996 + 1997) P12, won 7 lost 5 (58% win)

Glen Ross (NZ) (1998 - 2000) P12, won 5, lost 7 (42% win)

Steph Nel (SA) (2000 - 2003) P33 won 16 lost 17 (48% win)

Michael Bradley (Ire) (2003- 2010) P186, won 67 lost 112 drew 7 (36% win)

Eric Elwood (Ire) (2010 - 2013) P84 won 29 lost 52 drew 3 (35% win)

Pat Lam (Sam/NZ) (2013-2017) P119 won 57 lost 61 drew 1 (48% win)

Kieran Keane (NZ) (2017-2018) P28 won 12 lost 15 drew 1 (43% win)

Andy Friend (Aust) (2018- present) P61 won 32 lost 29 (52% win)

He's actually the most consistent coach we've had! I would think there are a lot of quick wins in our game under Friendy to really boost that number up.

It a fair point but he’s also operating in a totally different landscape to most of that list. Increased funding has helped Connacht a lot to be competitive so probably not really fair to compare him with coaches who were operating under shoe string budget such as Bradley and Elwood.

Lam basically changed the entire way Connacht had played for the last twenty years plus which obviously leads to some poor results and recall his first season was a disaster but he’s been far and away best coach Connacht had.

Connacht Team Talk Thread VI - Some like it TOH

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