What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Larbre34 · 27-01-2021 07:15PM

Its already not ending well.

What Philippe Lambert MEP said on the News is absolutely right, AZ shouldn't have signed up to contracts it knew it did not have the capacity to keep. The EU could ruin them in Court.

However, thats in no ones interest. As I said yesterday, the formula created by Oxford-AZ with hundreds of millions of EU euros, should be stripped from them and offered in open source to other industrial and bio pharma makers with the potential capacity replicate it in other facilities.

Hurrache · 27-01-2021 07:17PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

It reminds me of Irish government ministers speaking out against Eircom back in the day for not delivering broadband. Both the politicians and Eircom knew it would not have any substantive effect on the situation; it was merely an act for the public.

Poor simile. The EU, i.e. we, is extremely powerful and don't take kindly to being ****ed around.

Melanchthon · 27-01-2021 07:25PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

However, thats in no ones interest. As I said yesterday, the formula created by Oxford-AZ with hundreds of millions of EU euros, should be stripped from them and offered in open source to other industrial and bio pharma makers with the potential capacity replicate it in other facilities.

I don't think Oxford should be given any blame here at all not matter the outcome as they initially wanted to be open source.
Blame bill gates for this (and no it's not microchips lol)

https://khn.org/news/rather-than-give-away-its-covid-vaccine-oxford-makes-a-deal-with-drugmaker/

E mac · 27-01-2021 07:26PM

Hurrache wrote: »

Poor simile. The EU, i.e. we, is extremely powerful and don't take kindly to being ****ed around.

Are they though? For once I would like to see the EU do something to show their apparent might and power...all they ever do well is bureaucracy.

jackboy · 27-01-2021 07:30PM

Hurrache wrote: »

Poor simile. The EU, i.e. we, is extremely powerful and don't take kindly to being ****ed around.

The EU is a paper tiger. They are only hard on the weak. The pharma industry is vastly more powerful than the EU.

Hurrache · 27-01-2021 07:31PM

jackboy wrote: »

The EU is a paper tiger. They are only hard on the weak. The pharma industry is vastly more powerful than the EU.

What newsletter are you taking your clichés from?

Hurrache · 27-01-2021 07:34PM

E mac wrote: »

Are they though? For once I would like to see the EU do something to show their apparent might and power...all they ever do well is bureaucracy.

Be realistic. Any business or commercial dispute does not go straight to legal action and court, you try come up with solutions and resolve it amicably.

CrabRevolution · 27-01-2021 07:37PM

PCeeeee wrote: »

Could you explain more the Chamberlain/VDL parallel please. I'm not seeing it.

Yeah me neither. A day ago we were being told AZ are in the right and the EU must be wrong....but now we're getting analogies from the same people that have AZ in the place of the Nazis?

Am I missing something?

HalfAndHalf · 27-01-2021 07:37PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its already not ending well.

What Philippe Lambert MEP said on the News is absolutely right, AZ shouldn't have signed up to contracts it knew it did not have the capacity to keep. The EU could ruin them in Court.

However, thats in no ones interest. As I said yesterday, the formula created by Oxford-AZ with hundreds of millions of EU euros, should be stripped from them and offered in open source to other industrial and bio pharma makers with the potential capacity replicate it in other facilities.

Why so, the EU investment was in production increase to the EU supply chain, not vaccine development.

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 07:42PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its already not ending well.

What Philippe Lambert MEP said on the News is absolutely right, AZ shouldn't have signed up to contracts it knew it did not have the capacity to keep. The EU could ruin them in Court.

However, thats in no ones interest. As I said yesterday, the formula created by Oxford-AZ with hundreds of millions of EU euros, should be stripped from them and offered in open source to other industrial and bio pharma makers with the potential capacity replicate it in other facilities.

They are providing it at cost right

Who else is going to jump in on that one

Renault 5 · 27-01-2021 07:43PM

jackboy wrote: »

The EU is a paper tiger. They are only hard on the weak. The pharma industry is vastly more powerful than the EU.

lol

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 07:44PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

I don't think Oxford should be given any blame here at all not matter the outcome as they initially wanted to be open source.
Blame bill gates for this (and no it's not microchips lol)

https://khn.org/news/rather-than-give-away-its-covid-vaccine-oxford-makes-a-deal-with-drugmaker/

Who else was lined up to do it?

There's no story there

Which one of the vaccines won't have had a production problem by year's end

Pfizer is looking to make a fortune from this

ThePanjandrum · 27-01-2021 07:44PM

I know this is hypothetical but if the EMA decides not to approve the vaccine, will the EU still insist on delivery of the 300 million doses it has contracted for or will it claim that the contract is null and void because it doesn't meet its criteria which were not previously specified?

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 07:46PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I know this is hypothetical but if the EMA decides not to approve the vaccine, will the EU still insist on delivery of the 300 million doses it has contracted for or will it claim that the contract is null and void because it doesn't meet its criteria which were not previously specified?

You'd assume they would lose at least a portion of the money paid up front

E mac · 27-01-2021 07:49PM

Hurrache wrote: »

Be realistic. Any business or commercial dispute does not go straight to legal action and court, you try come up with solutions and resolve it amicably.

What can the EU do? 1.Amicable solution whereby AZ 'promise' a set amount ever month to EU? In return EU have satisfactory solution but still don't get initial supply promised
2. Take AZ to the courts possibly bankrupt them one less vaccine supplier...who's gonna wanna deal with the EU then..

ThePanjandrum · 27-01-2021 07:51PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Its already not ending well.

What Philippe Lambert MEP said on the News is absolutely right, AZ shouldn't have signed up to contracts it knew it did not have the capacity to keep. The EU could ruin them in Court.

However, thats in no ones interest. As I said yesterday, the formula created by Oxford-AZ with hundreds of millions of EU euros, should be stripped from them and offered in open source to other industrial and bio pharma makers with the potential capacity replicate it in other facilities.

Astra-Zeneca can supply the vaccine but probably not at the time that the EU has decided it now wants (I imagine these were not specified otherwise Astra-Zeneca would have tried to deliver according to the schedule).

But do remember that it's not Astra-Zeneca which created the vaccine, that's Oxford University (funded by the UK Government). Astra-Zeneca are the manufacturers, distributors and developers of a network of other production companies who are producing this on a non-profit basis and making it available to poorer countries as well as the rich.

CrabRevolution · 27-01-2021 08:00PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

Astra-Zeneca can supply the vaccine but probably not at the time that the EU has decided it now wants (I imagine these were not specified otherwise Astra-Zeneca would have tried to deliver according to the schedule).

But do remember that it's not Astra-Zeneca which created the vaccine, that's Oxford University (funded by the UK Government). Astra-Zeneca are the manufacturers, distributors and developers of a network of other production companies who are producing this on a non-profit basis and making it available to poorer countries as well as the rich.

You honestly reckon the EU didn't bother to specify when they wanted the vaccines? They just said "We'd like 200m vaccines please, to be delivered at your convenience at any stage between now and the end of time"...?

HalfAndHalf · 27-01-2021 08:06PM

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You honestly reckon the EU didn't bother to specify when they wanted the vaccines? They just said "We'd like 200m vaccines please, to be delivered at your convenience at any stage between now and the end of time"...?

And do you honestly think that a company the size of AZ, mass producing a vaccine that requires huge vats of cultures to mature a less than predictable yield, only a couple of months after its development, to be able to specify an exact amount on an exact date?

And Tbf they actually said we want X million vaccines, delivered at our convenience, whenever we get round to approving it for use, stored until we say so and to hell with if anyone else is ready for them to save their citizens and if we don’t approve it we won’t want them so we’ll have X million € back.

Every other manufacturer have had production delays and setbacks....there’s been no toys thrown out of prams across worldwide media about those companies have there. Just the one where it can be politicised....

ThePanjandrum · 27-01-2021 08:12PM

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You honestly reckon the EU didn't bother to specify when they wanted the vaccines? They just said "We'd like 200m vaccines please, to be delivered at your convenience at any stage between now and the end of time"...?

I think that the EU would not want to specify delivery times because it did not want to take deliveries of the vaccine if it did not want them.

BTW, if it comes to Court it will probably be in England. It's the preferred judiciary for many commercial contracts, even those where none of the parties is British based and if Astra-Zeneca drew up the template, that's what it would be expected to do.

Probes · 27-01-2021 08:16PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

And do you honestly think that a company the size of AZ, mass producing a vaccine that requires huge vats of cultures to mature a less than predictable yield, only a couple of months after its development, to be able to specify an exact amount on an exact date?

Every other manufacturer have had production delays and setbacks....there’s been no toys thrown out of prams across worldwide media about those companies have there. Just the one where it can be politicised....

It's not the delay that's the problem per se, it's that the delay seems only to impact on the EU supply. I agree with the EU, that doesn't seem right.

Renault 5 · 27-01-2021 08:17PM

It’s funny that people think the EU seems to not understand the ins and outs of the contract that was signed.

The EU will know word by word, letter by letter what’s in the contracts.

This is way worse for AZ in relation to signing contracts with other countries and requesting advanced payments.

27-01-2021 08:18PM

jackboy wrote: »

The EU is a paper tiger. They are only hard on the weak. The pharma industry is vastly more powerful than the EU.

One of the dumbest things I've read in a while

wexfordman2 · 27-01-2021 08:21PM

Dressoutlet wrote: »

For anyone that said they didn't have a clue what I was speaking about, or that I was wrong about the EU banning Ireland from buying supplies and yet couldn't, even after I asked, show me the proof of why I was wrong.
The EU are playing politics with our health and its totally unacceptable.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1386888/Brexit-news-oxford-vaccine-ireland-micheal-martin-coronavirus-covid19/amp

IRELAND has been BARRED from ordering up doses of the Oxford coronavirus vaccine in an apparent EU bid to pay the UK back for Brexit, a former Irish diplomat has said.
The pioneering vaccine has yet to be given the green light by the EU, despite having been given the thumbs-up in the UK, as efforts are stepped up to vaccinate as many people as possible with the NHS under increasing pressure. However, Ray Bassett, Ireland’s former ambassador to Canada, Jamaica and the Bahamas, told Express.co.uk: “Our Minister for Health, Stephen Donnelly, has just been rebuffed publicly when he suggested that Ireland should bring in some supplies of the AstraZeneca/Oxford COVID vaccine in anticipation of its approval by the European Medicines Agency
“The Irish Government was sharply told by the Commission that this would not be permitted.

“It is hard to see how any democratic Government should allow itself to be overruled by an unelected body like the Commission especially when the health of its citizens is involved in a pandemic.”

The reasons for the EU’s stance are unclear - but given the strained nature of relations between the bloc and the UK in the light of Brexit it seems reasonable to think it may be a factor.

Your first problem is.taking absolutely anything wirtten in the express as evidence of truth or fact, my god I am astounded that anyone would even attempt that.

HalfAndHalf · 27-01-2021 08:22PM

Probes wrote: »

It's not the delay that's the problem per se, it's that the delay seems only to impact on the EU supply. I agree with the EU, that doesn't seem right.

Well I’d imagine that’s because it’s only us that have said......wait for it.......wait for it.......oh Christ it’s Friday go go go we want them now!

To be honest I’m finding all a bit embarrassing how the EC are acting, why are we waiting until Friday to approve it when it’s clear from all the giving out that it’s going to be approved. Just more dragged out waiting.

And to be attempting to order a private company to take other countries orders to fulfil theirs is straight out of Putins playbook.

No one seems to be pointing the finger at Novasep and asking questions of them, they’re the ones that run the Belgian plant showing the much lower than expected yield, which had it been on par with the U.K. sites would mean we’d have our initial supply as promised.

jackboy · 27-01-2021 08:25PM

AdamD wrote: »

One of the dumbest things I've read in a while

Ah, the innocent.

CrabRevolution · 27-01-2021 08:27PM

ThePanjandrum wrote: »

I think that the EU would not want to specify delivery times because it did not want to take deliveries of the vaccine if it did not want them.

BTW, if it comes to Court it will probably be in England. It's the preferred judiciary for many commercial contracts, even those where none of the parties is British based and if Astra-Zeneca drew up the template, that's what it would be expected to do.

"I think" "it will probably be" "if" "I imagine".

Have you any facts to back any of this up?

It's pretty clear that there's just a few anti EU posters here going with a scattergun approach of every possible reason to try and justify AZ's actions and place all the blame on the EU, even when lots of those reasons are disproven or contradictory.

-It's just poor yields, nothing to see here. The fact they took the EU's money to build up stock is an irrelevance.
-But it's actually because the EU signed a contract later than the UK...even though countries who signed contracts after the EU are also getting vaccines delivered on time.
-In any case it's not really a contract
-And the EU didn't specify when they wanted the vaccines.
-But actually the fact the EMA haven't given approval in the 2 weeks since AZ applied has somehow set back AZs Q1 production by 60%.

I don't mean to just blindly defend the EU, but we have a handful of posters here just taking any story and running with it, just because they want to slate the EU.

Melanchthon · 27-01-2021 08:27PM

CrabRevolution wrote: »

You honestly reckon the EU didn't bother to specify when they wanted the vaccines? They just said "We'd like 200m vaccines please, to be delivered at your convenience at any stage between now and the end of time"...?

Hopefully Astra Zeneca will allow the contract to be published and this will be clearer.

For the minute though

But for all the EU seething, its leverage may be constrained by the contracts themselves. While the commission has not published its advance purchase agreements (APAs), partly redacted details of its deal with CureVac say that “the delivery dates set out in this APA are the contractor’s current best estimates only and subject to change”, adding that “the parties acknowledge that there is a risk that … the timeline for scaling up the production of the product may be delayed”.

From this article

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/27/eu-vaccine-bust-up-astrazeneca

Renault 5 · 27-01-2021 08:29PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Well I’d imagine that’s because it’s only us that have said......wait for it.......wait for it.......oh Christ it’s Friday go go go we want them now!

To be honest I’m finding all a bit embarrassing how the EC are acting, why are we waiting until Friday to approve it when it’s clear from all the giving out that it’s going to be approved. Just more dragged out waiting.

And to be attempting to order a private company to take other countries orders to fulfil theirs is straight out of Putins playbook.

No one seems to be pointing the finger at Novasep and asking questions of them, they’re the ones that run the Belgian plant showing the much lower than expected yield, which had it been on par with the U.K. sites would mean we’d have our initial supply as promised.

If according to AZ the UK facilities are only producing for the UK and Belgian and Dutch facilities are only producing for the EU block.

Who is producing the AZ doses for the rest of the world?

Based on AZ logic it will be neither the UK or EU.

CrabRevolution · 27-01-2021 08:30PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Hopefully Astra Zeneca will allow the contract to be published and this will be clearer.

For the minute though

From this article

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/27/eu-vaccine-bust-up-astrazeneca

We'd all benefit from seeing the contracts alright, but the poster I was replying to just claimed there were no dates specified whatsoever, best efforts or otherwise.

HalfAndHalf · 27-01-2021 08:33PM

CrabRevolution wrote: »

"I think" "it will probably be" "if" "I imagine".

Have you any facts to back any of this up?

It's pretty clear that there's just a few anti EU posters here going with a scattergun approach of every possible reason to try and justify AZ's actions and place all the blame on the EU, even when lots of those reasons are disproven or contradictory.

-It's just poor yields, nothing to see here. The fact they took the EU's money to build up stock is an irrelevance.
-But it's actually because the EU signed a contract later than the UK...even though countries who signed contracts after the EU are also getting vaccines delivered on time.
-In any case it's not really a contract
-And the EU didn't specify when they wanted the vaccines.
-But actually the fact the EMA haven't given approval in the 2 weeks since AZ applied has somehow set back AZs Q1 production by 60%.

I don't mean to just blindly defend the EU, but we have a handful of posters here just taking any story and running with it, just because they want to slate the EU.

Yet you are just blindly defending them and anyone who is the opposite to you are anti-eu!

That’s a very narrow minded, one eyed position.

Lots of people defending the EU and they’re world beating ability with contracts and agreements.....like the Brexit one that has left consumers, fishermen etc. worse off here in a Ireland than other EU countries!! Compare our fishermen to the French as a starter for 10 as an example!

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/26/business/astrazeneca-pfizer-vaccine-delays-europe/index.html

Pfizer having the same issues at Belgian plants, are the EC gunning for them and threatening this that and the other? No! Not a word, not a single word!!

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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