What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 05:41PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

What are you on about! Best/biggest, whatever, you meant they make the most money out of the EU market so they need us blah blah blah.

I have posted a link to the sky news article from ONE MONTH AGO where it clearly states China have overtaken Europe as the 2nd biggest customer.

You’re wrong, why not admit your initial post was rubbish bravado chest puffing and move on. Instead you’re now running rings around yourself trying to defend misleading people.

Sky News is not providing any references or data to back up its claim. Try use Sky News as your reference in a peer reviewed article. My screenshot was of a more credible source.

You don’t like my points for whatever reason. So for whatever reason, you attack one tiny detail to undermine my credibility in the debate.

screamer · 27-01-2021 05:42PM

Maybe EU should look at revoking AZ licences for other stuff they produce.... you can only get so far with carrot sometimes stick is needed.

NeuralNetwork · 27-01-2021 05:43PM

screamer wrote: »

Maybe EU should look at revoking AZ licences for other stuff they produce.... you can only get so far with carrot sometimes stick is needed.

That would be politicising the EMA, a highly trusted and exclusively technical and facts based agency and it's just not going to happen.

Licensing and politics have nothing to do with each other and that's one of the cornerstones of good regulation. If you start politicising regulatory decisions, you're entering Trumpian territory. It's not even technically possible within the EU system of governance as nobody has that kind of executive power, thankfully.

HalfAndHalf · 27-01-2021 05:44PM

Evan Rich Storefront wrote: »

Sky News is not providing any references or data to back up its claim. Try use Sky News as your reference in a peer reviewed article. My screenshot was of a more credible source.

You don’t like my points for whatever reason. So for whatever reason, you attack one tiny detail to undermine my credibility in the debate.

You’re wrong. Own it. Goodbye.

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 27-01-2021 05:49PM

screamer wrote: »

Maybe EU should look at revoking AZ licences for other stuff they produce.... you can only get so far with carrot sometimes stick is needed.

But then you'd get a jingoistic reaction from the UK if supply is diverted. I can see the reaction from the tabloids now:
'THEY'RE STEALING OUR VACCINES'
'VON DER LIAR'
etc

The Brexit fanatic Ministers would probably deploy soldiers at AZ manufacturing plants.

Then the EU reacts with ring fencing supply and stopping Pfizer/Janssen supplies to Britain etc. It has the potential to be a really messy situation.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 05:50PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

You started off as biggest, then changed your mind to 2nd biggest in ONE POST!!

You’re wrong. Own it. Goodbye.

So, the source needs to be analysed, to determine if the information is accurate. You said that Sky News said that China is the 2nd biggest market. I asked for the underlying source, to scrutinise the data, given that I provided you with the most recent high-quality data.

I do think that we are the best. We have good trading agreements between EU countries. We are stable. We having an ageing population. We have a large market. This was my reason for using the term best.

Anyway, while you pick hole in my semantics, EU citizens are dying due to the pandemic. I am delighted that the EU is fighting for the vaccines it paid to save our lives!

NeuralNetwork · 27-01-2021 05:55PM

The EU's entitled to know where it's money went and to get to the bottom of this. The issue to me would seem to be one of failed communication and blindsiding the EU with a last minute announcement of a shortage of supply. They should have been informing the EU of progress all along and then maybe things would not have come to this kind of row.

The EU itself is a technocratic organisation so the contracts will just be parsed and checked and processed.

I'd rather see the outcome of a review of this in the coming days and in the meantime AZ should be getting on with ironing out the manufacturing glitches.

The key focus in the next while should be about getting the J&J (Janssen) and CureVac (now with Bayer support) products through the licensing system as quickly as is safe.

Dyr · 27-01-2021 05:57PM

Evan Rich Storefront wrote: »

Caught with their pants down? Do give a reasoned argument, stating the facts that lead you to such a conclusion?

We paid. They failed to deliver. Simple.

We paid, AZ are saying they're delivering as per contract.

EU are briefing journalists that "best effort" is a boilerplate clause and means f**k all in a contract.

I know which party sounds more convinced that they're onside, legally.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 05:58PM

Bambi wrote: »

We paid, AZ are saying they're delivering as per contract.

EU are briefing journalists that "best effort" is a boilerplate clause and means f**k all in a contract.

I know which party sounds more convinced that they're onside, legally.

Why would the EU be so keen to publish the contract if they are in the wrong?

fly_agaric · 27-01-2021 05:59PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

One thing the EU could do is create a EU Pandemic Management Agency and actually resource it properly and that would require serious agreement from the member states. The piecemeal approach has not helped, as it's all been about reacting to member states' reactions when various countries tried to grab resources earlier on in the pandemic.

Could anything on that scale be done without a new EU treaty?
Maybe EU countries that are agreeable could do something radical like that quite fast under enhanced cooperation mechanisms of Lisbon Treaty (?).
Otherwise the pandemic could be over before it gets up and running...

That would not include us, would it (due to requirements for referendums)?
It is going alot further than a collective ordering of vaccines or medical supplies and sending new health related (and other?) powers up to the EU level and making a new body to handle it.

HalfAndHalf · 27-01-2021 06:00PM

Evan Rich Storefront wrote: »

So, the source needs to be analysed, to determine if the information is accurate. You said that Sky News said that China is the 2nd biggest market. I asked for the underlying source, to scrutinise the data, given that I provided you with the most recent high-quality data.

I do think that we are the best. We have good trading agreements between EU countries. We are stable. We having an ageing population. We have a large market. This was my reason for using the term best.

Anyway, while you pick hole in my semantics, EU citizens are dying due to the pandemic. I am delighted that the EU is fighting for the vaccines it paid to save our lives!

Now you think that we’re the best market for AZ, a U.K. company........because we have good trading relationships with the U.K.!! Ah come on, you do know it isn’t 2019 right?

I can’t even!

Call me Al · 27-01-2021 06:02PM

Dempo1 wrote: »

So now it appears the EU are asking for some of Britain's stock? This is just becoming absurd. I can just see Boris delivering them to Ursula personally. Whatever about who's right or wrong, it's a supply issue, get over it. Politicians need to cop on and stop making widely ambitious promises. Our own Minister for health now rowing back on promises albeit he doesn't call them that.

I really don't think the EU cares where the supply comes from as long as it comes.
Why would they?
That's up to AZ to figure out.
Going by their own press release last June they were fully aware of the implications of a 400million vaccine order for Europe would mean. They clearly acknowledged in this that they would need to significantly upscale manufacturing.

NeuralNetwork · 27-01-2021 06:06PM

In the big scheme of things, what the UK tabloids might or might not write is entirely irrelevant both AstraZeneca and the EU and I think trying to link this to Brexit is also nonsense. The world doesn't revolve around that topic.

It's a contractual dispute, plain and simple. If there's an issue, there's an issue. If there isn't there isn't. It's really as simple as that.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 06:06PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Now you think that we’re the best market for AZ, a U.K. company........because we have good trading relationships with the U.K.!! Ah come on, you do know it isn’t 2019 right?

I can’t even!

I wouldn’t want to piss off an important customer. It’s bad business. Moreover, it is bad publicity for AZ.

And on an ethical level, you sell something to somebody and then don’t provide it, because to hell with it, our trading relationships are terrible anyway?

Finally, you seem to confuse Brexit relations with business relations? Brexit does not dictate what markets the company seeks

froog · 27-01-2021 06:08PM

it's all down to what's in this contract. the EU seem rock solid the contract has been breached. this one could drag on for years to be honest, long after covid has been dealt with. so you can appreciate the urgency from the EU here and using whatever threats they have up their sleeve to get what they paid for.

fly_agaric · 27-01-2021 06:25PM

Dempo1 wrote: »

So now it appears the EU are asking for some of Britain's stock? This is just becoming absurd. I can just see Boris delivering them to Ursula personally. Whatever about who's right or wrong, it's a supply issue, get over it. Politicians need to cop on and stop making widely ambitious promises. Our own Minister for health now rowing back on promises albeit he doesn't call them that.

As regards the bigger picture (of politicians and public everywhere all screaming for vaccinations yesterday) I'd agree.

It is amazing (to me) that so many vaccines have been developed so quickly and are being manufactured and distributed at such scales.

However if the EU commission is correct that AstraZeneca have not been fair or honest in its dealings with them, I do want them (as our reps. in all this - I am an Irish citizen) to hold the company accountable for it rather than just "getting over it (and any excess body count)" as you put it.

Edit: On asking for some output of UK plants, well if EU plants were already used for supply to UK, pre end of Brexit transition I see no problem.
It's very, very unlikely to happen, and such requests could send Brexiters in the UK into paroxyms of enjoyable anger but I couldn't care less about that really.

namloc1980 · 27-01-2021 06:28PM

Dempo1 wrote: »

So now it appears the EU are asking for some of Britain's stock? This is just becoming absurd. I can just see Boris delivering them to Ursula personally. Whatever about who's right or wrong, it's a supply issue, get over it. Politicians need to cop on and stop making widely ambitious promises. Our own Minister for health now rowing back on promises albeit he doesn't call them that.

So your solution to a potential breach of contract is to just "get over it". Interesting.

Green Peter · 27-01-2021 06:30PM

I think the Brits are behind this, it gives their government the image of brexit working already and a head start with their economy. I bet James Bond has something to do with it.

namloc1980 · 27-01-2021 06:31PM

Green Peter wrote: »

I think the Brits are behind this, it gives their government the image of brexit working already and a head start with their economy. I bet James Bond has something to do with it.

An example of "the Brits are at it again"?

Cerveza · 27-01-2021 06:32PM

Green Peter wrote: »

I think the Brits are behind this, it gives their government the image of brexit working already and a head start with their economy. I bet James Bond has something to do with it.

The pound is gathering also.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 06:33PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

So your solution to a potential breach of contract is to just "get over it". Interesting.

And to those whose loved-ones are in the vulnerable categories that should have been vaccinated in the coming weeks that now won’t receive a vaccine and may perish as a consequence? Should they “get over it” also

brickster69 · 27-01-2021 06:33PM

screamer wrote: »

Maybe EU should look at revoking AZ licences for other stuff they produce.... you can only get so far with carrot sometimes stick is needed.

I guess you are not one of the many who might rely on those products to be kept alive.

Hurrache · 27-01-2021 06:33PM

Green Peter wrote: »

I. I bet James Bond has something to do with it.

Johnny English more like.

jackboy · 27-01-2021 06:38PM

screamer wrote: »

Maybe EU should look at revoking AZ licences for other stuff they produce.... you can only get so far with carrot sometimes stick is needed.

Yeah, depriving EU citizens of their medication would really show that company what’s what.

NeuralNetwork · 27-01-2021 06:55PM

I see Sanofi is now going to manufacture or at least fill and pack the Pfizer / BioNTech vaccine:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/27/europe/sanofi-vaccine-doses-intl/index.html

mick087 · 27-01-2021 07:01PM

This situation is becoming a farce.

This is becoming like when Neville Chamberlain was holding a paper saying we will have peace in our time with yer woman Ursula Von Der Leyen holding contract saying where are our vaccines?

AZ are not able to produce them we need a plan B, this episode is getting out of hand, now they seem to be bringing the Brits into it.
This is not gonna end well.

Bit cynical · 27-01-2021 07:05PM

I thought there was something arrogant in the Commission's attitude in this FT article from about 3 weeks ago:

The commission also hit back at criticism of its vaccine strategy, which was agreed by member states in June. “We have actually signed contracts that would allow member states to get access to 2bn doses, largely enough to vaccinate the whole of the EU population,” said Eric Mamer, commission chief spokesman.

He said it was “quite astonishing” that some people were asking why all doses were not immediately available, pointing to predicted manufacturing constraints, which meant distribution around the EU would gradually build up until a “big delivery” around April.

Sounds like they were already expecting delays but that it subsequently became politically unacceptable among the member states, hence the outburst against AZ.

https://www.ft.com/content/c9bbc753-97fb-493a-bbb6-dd97a7c4b807

PCeeeee · 27-01-2021 07:08PM

mick087 wrote: »

This situation is becoming a farce.

This is becoming like when Neville Chamberlain was holding a paper saying we will have peace in our time with yer woman Ursula Von Der Leyen holding contract saying where are our vaccines?

AZ are not able to produce them we need a plan B, this episode is getting out of hand, now they seem to be bringing the Brits into it.
This is not gonna end well.

Could you explain more the Chamberlain/VDL parallel please. I'm not seeing it.

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 27-01-2021 07:10PM

PCeeeee wrote: »

Could you explain more the Chamberlain/VDL parallel please. I'm not seeing it.

Thought I was the only one

Bit cynical · 27-01-2021 07:13PM

It reminds me of Irish government ministers speaking out against Eircom back in the day for not delivering broadband. Both the politicians and Eircom knew it would not have any substantive effect on the situation; it was merely an act for the public.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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