What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Call me Al · 27-01-2021 02:36PM

Renault 5 wrote: »

I have 3 questions.

1. How many doses have been produced so far in the Belgian facility to date.

2. How many doses that were produced are currently in storage within the EU.

3. Where any of the doses produced within the Belgian facility distributed to countries outside of the EU and If so, Who and how many?

Is that you Ms von der Leyen?

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 02:36PM

Evan Rich Storefront wrote: »

Your argument will be redundant when the EU approves the Astra’s vaccine by the end of the week. Will the vaccine flood in with the approval? Or will no vaccine arrive and it will still be the EU’s fault?

how? they pre purchased doses that haven't even been produced yet

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 02:37PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We don't know why they took so long to submit for approval - at least I'm not aware of the reason. Also we could have emergency approved this back in December like the UK did.

I never said that they have copious supplies - they obviously don't or they would just supply them. It's most likely because they have the UK, Israel etc who approved it ahead of the EU and rolled it out more rapidly than projected, coupled with possibly them paying a premium for it, that has led to supply constraints.

Realistically the AZ vaccine is by far and away the best vaccine we have at the moment logistically and cost wise to get us out of this mess.

One question, AZ struggled to meet the UK goals in December. It somehow would have magically conjured the vaccines if it had been approved earlier by the EMA? An approval is far more commitment than a huge sum of money? Clearly, the EU had every intention of rolling out their vaccine. They were monitoring the data pending the supply becoming available? Imagine if there was an upswing of an adverse effect? Imagine the outrage that the EMA had only licensed on phase III data, when accumulating phase IV data was showing such deleterious effects

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 02:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

AZ would have had to share out the supply they had, rather than supply the customers who were ready to go as it seems they sensibly did.

You're in business : Customer A says your quote is approved, here's your money, give us your products ASAP. Customer B says we'll get back to you in 2 months and let you know whether we are going to buy anything from you, and by the way, keep all your stock for us. Who do you supply?

As a Cavan man, did you ever pay up front for anything? If not, why not?

they already paid for them, there's no disputing that

Charles Babbage · 27-01-2021 02:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Pure speculation. Aside from this, the EU's strategy to date has been a total failure. Just yesterday they came out and said the EMA could not grant emergency authorisation as the UK did, that was down to member states. Stephen Donnelly said back in December this wasn't the case and that they had to work in tandem with our EU neighbours.

Stephen Donnelly is wrong or is being misquoted. When Britain approved the vaccine there were under the EU system and Hungary has given emergency approval for the Sputnik vaccine.

.

Astra Zeneca announce the same - and remember the EMA HASN'T EVEN APPROVED the AZ vaccine yet - HOW DARE YOU BREACH CONTRACT !!!!! And by the way, they probably didn't breach contract.

The EU gave them €138m, a substantial sum, to gear up their production to be ready once they were approved. They have had 6 months and it is reasonable to expect them to have supplies ready to go. It seems that AZ are now relying on slippery terms in their contract. How blame may lie with the EU in not making the contract tighter but if you pay for something then you expect delivery, not legal trickery.

Wolf359f · 27-01-2021 02:39PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah sure why stop at emergency approval?

Why not just open it up so that each individual can buy a "vaccine" off whomever they like once the seller "pinky-promises" that it'll work with no side effects?

There'd probably be a good few sellers on ebay within hours if they did that.

I remember only last year most saying they wouldn't take the vaccine until months after it's approved due to risks of it not being safe to now, just approve it for emergency use, don't even look at the data, rubber stamp the application and start jabbing away. You just can't win.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 02:39PM

Call me Al wrote: »

Is that you Ms von der Leyen?

Because she really has time to speak to wasters like us at 14:00 on a Wednesday on this obscure Irish forum

Donald Trump · 27-01-2021 02:39PM

monkeybutter wrote: »

how? they pre purchased doses that haven't even been produced yet

It is implied that they pre-funded doses which were then sold to others instead.

Pete_Cavan · 27-01-2021 02:39PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I never said that they have copious supplies - they obviously don't or they would just supply them. It's most likely because they have the UK, Israel etc who approved it ahead of the EU and rolled it out more rapidly than projected, coupled with possibly them paying a premium for it, that has led to supply constraints.

So you are suggesting that AZ are intentionally diverting supply for which the EU has paid up front for to other customers because the EU didn't emergency approve their vaccine? Do you think that had the EU emergency approved it with little assessment, their orders would be met?

The things we know for sure are that AZ only applied for approval in December and that they are experiencing production issues, how are those things the EUs fault?

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 02:40PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

It is implied that they pre-funded doses which were then sold to others instead.

exactly, they have already paid for more doses than they have produced in total. months of supply yet to even be made

Donald Trump · 27-01-2021 02:42PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Do you need to be reminded of the several hundred million euros paid up front by the EU?

As a Cavan man, did you ever pay up front for anything? If not, why not?

Sorry, had to fix that post

Pete_Cavan · 27-01-2021 02:44PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

AZ would have had to share out the supply they had, rather than supply the customers who were ready to go as it seems they sensibly did.

You're in business : Customer A says your quote is approved, here's your money, give us your products ASAP. Customer B says we'll get back to you in 2 months and let you know whether we are going to buy anything from you, and by the way, keep all your stock for us. Who do you supply?

They are contractually committed to supply all their customers in line the supply agreements. If AZ can't do that, it is on them. I don't know why that is so hard for you to understand. If AZ can't deliver after the EU paid they hundreds of millions up front, the EU is right to go mad.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 02:44PM

monkeybutter wrote: »

they already paid for them, there's no disputing that

Why would the approval really matter? I mean, to take it from a business perspective, who cares what the customer does with the product? Whether we bought a big box of vaccines to sit in a warehouse or to vaccinate our population is arbitrary to AZ. Our money, our rules. We gave the money, so they need to cough up the goods. This pharmaceutical company is dictating to the EU

Wolf359f · 27-01-2021 02:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Meanwhile Germany did a side deal for 30 million extra doses of the Pfizer vaccine - crickets from the Commission.

They also ordered 200,000 "Trump antibodies" from Regeneron in another side deal - again crickets from the Commission.

We're all in this together my ass.

Pfizer announce delay in production - "that's grand lads, it happens to the best of us" from the Commission.

Germany done a deal separate to the EU deal. The issue the EU had was with countries competing with each other. If the EU was offering Pfizer X per dose and German turns around and say's we'll double that for us to be first in the queue etc...
The EU done their deal and German decided afterwards to order more for delivery after the EU order is complete.

Secondly, the deals are for vaccines not treatments, there's no restrictions on EU countries buying any treatments that they wish.

The Pfizer delay in delivery was most certainly not met with 'that's grand lads'. The delay was suppose to be for weeks and the EU commission intervened and the delay was reduced. Pfizer also gave a very valid reason for the slowdown. AZ can't even answer the EU's questions (how many doses were made, how many were exported etc...)

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 02:48PM

Evan Rich Storefront wrote: »

Why would the approval really matter? I mean, to take it from a business perspective, who cares what the customer does with the product? Whether we bought a big box of vaccines to sit in a warehouse or to vaccinate our population is arbitrary to AZ. Our money, our rules. We gave the money, so they need to cough up the goods. This pharmaceutical company is dictating to the EU

i know, i think there's too much poitín and not enough soup

Donald Trump · 27-01-2021 02:51PM

For all those people moaning about the EU and going on about it being ok to ignore later contracts in order to fulfill earlier contracts first

South Africa are expecting an imminent arrival of 1m doses https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/jan/27/coronavirus-live-news-uk-to-quarantine-arrivals-from-high-risk-countries-as-global-covid-cases-pass-100m?page=with:block-601178dc8f08bf384c763acc#block-601178dc8f08bf384c763acc

A delivery of 1 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine is expected to arrive imminently at Johannesburg’s international airport and there are plans for jabs to be given to doctors and nurses starting next week.

Health Minister Zweli Mkhize has said South Africa intends to vaccinate 67% of its 60 million people in 2021, starting with the most vulnerable health workers. He is expected to speak about the arrival of the vaccines later Wednesday.

You may also notice that there is an article from January 7th 2021 about SA ordering their first vaccines . https://apnews.com/article/africa-south-africa-coronavirus-pandemic-coronavirus-vaccine-22f3d4d4a9364ddd4c07b87f4d5294f8

JOHANNESBURG (AP) — South Africa says it will import 1.5 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine to inoculate the country’s health workers. This is South Africa’s first announcement of the purchase of a COVID-19 vaccine as its cases soar.

The first 1 million doses will be delivered later this month from the Serum Institute of India, followed by an additional 500,000 doses in February, Health Minister Zwelini Mkhize announced Thursday.

Also another article here from 5 days ago about how much they are paying for it https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/south-africa-paying-more-than-double-eu-price-for-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine

South Africa will have to buy doses of Oxford-AstraZeneca’s Covid-19 vaccine at a price nearly 2.5 times higher than most European countries, the country’s health ministry has said.

What do the "first-come-first-served" spoofers on here make of that?

27-01-2021 02:53PM

To respond to a few points above:

1. Emergency approval doesn't imply don't even look at the data or some sort of cowboy operation.

2. I heard Donnelly say this on Prime Time. Here's something a quick Google turned up:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-plans-to-vaccinate-700-000-people-by-end-of-march-donnelly-1.4457685

Fianna Fáil TD Marc MacSharry called for the Government to “shelve the [being a] good European line” and engage in bilateral arrangements to get extra vaccines for Ireland.

He said “why can’t we be like the Israelis” the leading country in the world for vaccination, or like the Germans who had done their own deal to get extra vaccines.

The Sligo-Leitrim TD asked if the Minister had spoken directly to the leaders of the vaccine producing companies but Mr Donnelly said that was being discussed at the appropriate EU level and which point Mr MacSharry said the State should drop the “good European” line and act for the State.

He said the State might pay an extra premium for the vaccine but he said the extra payment to get people vaccinated would be the equivalent of two weeks of the cost of funding the pandemic unemployment payment.

3. Production delays:
Both Pfizer and AZ have suffered from them. Hardly surprising since this is a massive unprecedented wartime scale effort, and the EU is huge. Yet the pile on from the EU is on AZ. Smells political to me.

4. EU slow rollout:
Even if we had an unlimited supply tomorrow, many EU countries aren't even able to use the supply they have. Ireland are actually doing very well on this front.

27-01-2021 02:54PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

For all those people moaning about the EU and going on about it being ok to ignore later contracts in order to fulfill earlier contracts first

South Africa are expecting an imminent arrival of 1m doses https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/jan/27/coronavirus-live-news-uk-to-quarantine-arrivals-from-high-risk-countries-as-global-covid-cases-pass-100m?page=with:block-601178dc8f08bf384c763acc#block-601178dc8f08bf384c763acc

You may also notice that there is an article from January 7th 2021 about SA ordering their first vaccines . https://apnews.com/article/africa-south-africa-coronavirus-pandemic-coronavirus-vaccine-22f3d4d4a9364ddd4c07b87f4d5294f8

Also another article here from 5 days ago about how much they are paying for it https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/22/south-africa-paying-more-than-double-eu-price-for-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine

What do the "first-come-first-served" spoofers on here make of that?

I don't see the problem? You get what you pay for. I'm sure AZ have this contractually tied up well. Also, how many did they order? It's not like AZ have said the EU is getting no vaccines?

Then two German national newspapers come out saying the AZ vaccine is only 8% effective in over 65s. Scandalous stuff.

Donald Trump · 27-01-2021 02:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't see the problem? You get what you pay for. Also, how many did they order? It's not like AZ have said the EU is getting no vaccines?

Two simple points:

1) EU pre-funded vaccines which were to be stockpiled to be ready to go once approval was granted. It appears that AZ took the money, said nothing and only just informed the EU that "eh...yeah, about those few hundred million vaccines you are expecting over the next few weeks.....we kinda forgot where we left them or something."

2) On 7th January, a company with existing contractual obligations that it knew it could not realistically fulfill, apparently went out and took on even more work and signed more contracts....which they apparently appear to be able to fulfill in full.......for the same product they can't deliver for others.

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 03:00PM

Deleted User wrote: »

To respond to a few points above:

1. Emergency approval doesn't imply don't even look at the data or some sort of cowboy operation.

2. I heard Donnelly say this on Prime Time. Here's something a quick Google turned up:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-plans-to-vaccinate-700-000-people-by-end-of-march-donnelly-1.4457685

3. Production delays:
Both Pfizer and AZ have suffered from them. Hardly surprising since this is a massive unprecedented wartime scale effort, and the EU is huge. Yet the pile on from the EU is on AZ. Smells political to me.

4. EU slow rollout:
Even if we had an unlimited supply tomorrow, many EU countries aren't even able to use the supply they have. Ireland are actually doing very well on this front.

point 1, so why was the Schtates top man laughing at them and implying that was basically what they did

all the other points, this is a big wartime effort, no doubt, so if they had legit reasons for the delay the EU wouldn't be hopping on it when there doesn't seem to be an issue with others supply,

its also a big effort to roll out the vaccine, same issues

screamer · 27-01-2021 03:02PM

Oh and conveniently, a suspect package was just sent to their Covid production factory in Wales, now all evacuated.
You couldn’t make it up. Trust is a huge part of new healthcare medicines and vaccines, I don’t think I want the AZ vaccine even if they do deliver the doses.

27-01-2021 03:03PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Two simple points for you:

1) EU pre-funded vaccines which were to be stockpiled to be ready to go once approval was granted. It appears that AZ took the money, said nothing and only just informed the EU that "eh...yeah, about those few hundred million vaccines you are expecting over the next few weeks.....we kinda forgot where we left them or something."

2) On 7th January, a company with existing contractual obligations that it knew it could not realistically fulfill, apparently went out and took on even more work and signed more contracts....which they apparently appear to be able to fulfill in full.......for the same product they can't deliver for others.

This is how business works. You can't sit on your hands waiting for clients to be ready. You have to take the orders knowing there will be inevitable delays, regulatory failure to approve etc.

AZ may well have worked out that it makes more financial sense for them to break the contract and supply everyone with as much as they can instead of favouring one customer over another. Who knows. And the EU are OK with Germany outbidding them for extra Pfizer vaccines.

I mean, as Donald Trump I don't have to tell you this.

Meanwhile, people are dying.

Pete_Cavan · 27-01-2021 03:04PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't see the problem? You get what you pay for. I'm sure AZ have this contractually tied up well. Also, how many did they order? It's not like AZ have said the EU is getting no vaccines?

You don't see a problem with a company reneging on contractual commitments to supply life saving products which have already been paid for? Bizarrely you seem to see a problem with the EU being unhappy with that situation!

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 03:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

To respond to a few points above:

1. Emergency approval doesn't imply don't even look at the data or some sort of cowboy operation.

2. I heard Donnelly say this on Prime Time. Here's something a quick Google turned up:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-plans-to-vaccinate-700-000-people-by-end-of-march-donnelly-1.4457685

3. Production delays:
Both Pfizer and AZ have suffered from them. Hardly surprising since this is a massive unprecedented wartime scale effort, and the EU is huge. Yet the pile on from the EU is on AZ. Smells political to me.

4. EU slow rollout:
Even if we had an unlimited supply tomorrow, many EU countries aren't even able to use the supply they have. Ireland are actually doing very well on this front.

I have a background in clinical trials.

1. Simply nonsense. You can look up any reputable website. The purpose of the approval is to safeguard individuals, with both effective and safe treatments. This is achieved by reviewing phase I-IV data
2. We gain what, 500,000 vaccines by spiting our European neighbours. And then we have to expect that everything will be just cool between us?
3. Why is the EU being disproportionately affected? Why have the supplies continued as normal to other areas? Even areas that ordered after us
4. Provide evidence please?

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 03:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This is how business works. You can't sit on your hands waiting for clients to be ready. You have to take the orders knowing there will be inevitable delays, regulatory failure to approve etc.

AZ may well have worked out that it makes more financial sense for them to break the contract and supply everyone with as much as they can instead of favouring one customer over another. Who knows. And the EU are OK with Germany outbidding them for extra Pfizer vaccines.

I mean, as Donald Trump I don't have to tell you this.

Meanwhile, people are dying.

that is not how business works unless you want to go out of business

they didn't outbid them for anything

they bought extra doses they will get after the eu order has fulfilled

obviously you are trolling at this stage

Melanchthon · 27-01-2021 03:07PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

What do the "first-come-first-served" spoofers on here make of that?

It's not simply first come first served though people are arguing about, it's that the UK signed a deal with better stricter terms than the EU did because they were quicker, the time scale also comes into play because it means the UK plant will have ironed out it's teething problems first, the UK may also have it as part of their deal that they have exclusive first preference on vaccines produced in the UK based plants which the EU does not in terms of its contract, simply a best effort clause.
All this hopefully will be out in the open soon if Astra Zeneca allow the contract to be released.

About the South Africa shipment, in their statement recently the EU was very specific that Humanitarian exports would not be impacted, so it might be that?

Donald Trump · 27-01-2021 03:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

This is how business works. You can't sit on your hands waiting for clients to be ready. You have to take the orders knowing there will be inevitable delays, regulatory failure to approve etc.

AZ may well have worked out that it makes more financial sense for them to break the contract and supply everyone with as much as they can instead of favouring one customer over another. Who knows. And the EU are OK with Germany outbidding them for extra Pfizer vaccines.

I mean, as Donald Trump I don't have to tell you this.

Meanwhile, people are dying.

I don't think you have much of an argument from any angle.

Do you not understand the concept of selling something? If you sell me vaccines (and as part of that deal you will stockpile and store them temporarily for me) and I pay you, then they are my property. You can't later decide to sell them to someone else who might offer you more.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 27-01-2021 03:12PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

It's not simply first come first served though people are arguing about, it's that the UK signed a deal with better stricter terms than the EU did because they were quicker, the time scale also comes into play because it means the UK plant will have ironed out it's teething problems first, the UK may also have it as part of their deal that they have exclusive first preference on vaccines produced in the UK based plants which the EU does not in terms of its contract, simply a best effort clause.
All this hopefully will be out in the open soon if Astra Zeneca allow the contract to be released.

About the South Africa shipment, in their statement recently the EU was very specific that Humanitarian exports would not be impacted, so it might be that?

Be sure to link the two contracts so we can compare and contrast!

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 03:15PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

It's not simply first come first served though people are arguing about, it's that the UK signed a deal with better stricter terms than the EU did because they were quicker, the time scale also comes into play because it means the UK plant will have ironed out it's teething problems first, the UK may also have it as part of their deal that they have exclusive first preference on vaccines produced in the UK based plants which the EU does not in terms of its contract, simply a best effort clause.
All this hopefully will be out in the open soon if Astra Zeneca allow the contract to be released.

About the South Africa shipment, in their statement recently the EU was very specific that Humanitarian exports would not be impacted, so it might be that?

this is why we need to wait for the facts before jumping to conclusions

if it is just a supply issue, then its a storm in a tea cup really

all the companies will have those and why its pointless putting out targets until you have secured supply

monkeybutter · 27-01-2021 03:16PM

Evan Rich Storefront wrote: »

Be sure to link the two contracts so we can compare and contrast!

you gotta assume that they aren't lying about it

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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