BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

bk · 22-01-2021 4:04pm

GT89 wrote: »

I sort of agree but I still think the public transport in London is still vastly superior to our own in many ways although we are beginning to catch up. I often think when it comes to things like public transport Dublin looks to London and Cork looks to Dublin.

Sure, but then London is a much larger city and not really a direct comparison and the rest of the UK and cities similar size to Dublin are pretty poor.

Plus I don't think London really compares all that well to the other big mainland European cities like Paris, Berlin, etc.

Also where I feel the comparison breaks down is the London Underground, which obviously makes up the core of Londons transport and does most of the heavy lifting.

We don't have anything like that here and very much depend on Dublin Bus in a way that London doesn't quiet depend on London Bus (though still important). So saying buses in Dublin are almost as good as London Bus isn't all that high of a complement, when you look at the overall picture in London and other cities.

Other then the shared history, I have to say that similar sized European cities like Amsterdam and Copenhagen would be better examples for Dublin to look at.

GT89 · 22-01-2021 6:58pm

bk wrote: »

Sure, but then London is a much larger city and not really a direct comparison and the rest of the UK and cities similar size to Dublin are pretty poor.

Plus I don't think London really compares all that well to the other big mainland European cities like Paris, Berlin, etc.

Also where I feel the comparison breaks down is the London Underground, which obviously makes up the core of Londons transport and does most of the heavy lifting.

We don't have anything like that here and very much depend on Dublin Bus in a way that London doesn't quiet depend on London Bus (though still important). So saying buses in Dublin are almost as good as London Bus isn't all that high of a complement, when you look at the overall picture in London and other cities.

Other then the shared history, I have to say that similar sized European cities like Amsterdam and Copenhagen would be better examples for Dublin to look at.

Believe it or not buses in London actually carry significantly more passengers than the tube per year. In fact globally speaking in the vast majority of cities including those with extensive rail based public transport buses are the dominant.

People use buses in London when it makes more sense than the tube and many use the buses to make connections with the tube and national rail. The tube does not cover all areas in London and a large swathe of South London is nowhere near any tube lines.

I do agree that infrastructure such as bus priority measures is better in other cities but I don't think London's public transport network is something to be sniffed as somewhere to look up to. Cycling wise we should be looking to be like the Netherlands.

bk · 22-01-2021 8:36pm

GT89 wrote: »

Believe it or not buses in London actually carry significantly more passengers than the tube per year. In fact globally speaking in the vast majority of cities including those with extensive rail based public transport buses are the dominant.

I do know that and I was actually thinking about it as I wrote what I did.

But I think it is important to put out a key difference between London and Dublin. In London, the London Underground acts as the core of the public transport network.

London Bus acts more in the outskirts of the city, transporting people to and from tube stations, rather then carrying them all the way into the city *

* Except for the parts of London not covered by the tube, then London Bus plays a more important rule there.

By comparison Dublin Bus makes up the core of the Dublin transport network, carrying people right into the city on most routes (outside of DART and Luas). It plays a much more core role then London Bus.

dirk_dangler · 22-01-2021 11:39pm

bk wrote: »

ld fare has already become a flat fare.

I think we would probably have had the 90 minute flat fare by now if it hadn't been for Covid..
On the other hand, you would think this would be perfect time to introduce the 90 minute ticket when passenger numbers are low and the government are basically keeping DB afloat anyway.

We had a 90 minute ticket for DB and then the NTA came along and cancelled it, seems most round here have forgotten that, i suspect once it is completely forgotten the NTA will announce a "game changing" 90 minute flat fare to much praise in the media and here.

punisher5112 · 22-01-2021 11:44pm

dirk_dangler wrote: »

We had a 90 minute ticket for DB and then the NTA came along and cancelled it, seems most round here have forgotten that, i suspect once it is completely forgotten the NTA will announce a "game changing" 90 minute flat fare to much praise in the media and here.

Don't forget the rambler, 2eazy ticket and so on.
Student tickets also and of course the child care which was and is extremely cheap.

The travel90 was an absolute steal and I use to tell anyone that would be moaning about paying my wages and so on.... I gave up when the same people had the chance to use these and then the same people still paying cash when leap came.....

Just can't win.

BonnieSituation · 22-01-2021 11:56pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Don't forget the rambler, 2eazy ticket and so on.
Student tickets also and of course the child care which was and is extremely cheap.

The travel90 was an absolute steal and I use to tell anyone that would be moaning about paying my wages and so on.... I gave up when the same people had the chance to use these and then the same people still paying cash when leap came.....

Just can't win.

Anyone who doesn't avail of Leap cards this stage, even for a seldom journey, should be slapped about the head.

GT89 · 22-01-2021 11:59pm

dirk_dangler wrote: »

We had a 90 minute ticket for DB and then the NTA came along and cancelled it, seems most round here have forgotten that, i suspect once it is completely forgotten the NTA will announce a "game changing" 90 minute flat fare to much praise in the media and here.

Good point but it was only valid for DB and not the DART or Luas

punisher5112 · 23-01-2021 12:02am

GT89 wrote: »

Good point but it was only valid for DB and not the DART or Luas

Yes but there were feeder tickets, rambler to do across other modes too and also there were discount cards across other methods.

Zebra3 · 23-01-2021 10:17am

dirk_dangler wrote: »

We had a 90 minute ticket for DB and then the NTA came along and cancelled it, seems most round here have forgotten that, i suspect once it is completely forgotten the NTA will announce a "game changing" 90 minute flat fare to much praise in the media and here.

Travel90 tickets were such good value for me that they were cheaper than just buying a single ticket on the bus from Maynooth into the city centre.

And yet so many people I spoke to about them had no idea what I was talking about.

punisher5112 · 23-01-2021 10:33am

Zebra3 wrote: »

Travel90 tickets were such good value for me that they were cheaper than just buying a single ticket on the bus from Maynooth into the city centre.

And yet so many people I spoke to about them had no idea what I was talking about.

Yes and it wasn't like it was kept top secret.

Even today with all the timetables, internet, search engine, free WiFi etc etc people still don't understand what bus does what or why at 2330 buses hold their time in the city just like they did over 100years ago on the trams....

On the xspresso it worked out the best and then they could use again if needed.

GT89 · 23-01-2021 11:50am

Why instead of introducing Leap could they not have expanded T90 to include Luas and Dart?

Stevek101 · 23-01-2021 12:49pm

https://about.leapcard.ie/leap-90

GT89 · 23-01-2021 2:29pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

https://about.leapcard.ie/leap-90

Yeah but the Travel 90 meant that all journies on DB after the first journey was made were free. Leap 90 is only a 1€ discount.

BonnieSituation · 23-01-2021 3:20pm

And Leap fares are about 30% cheaper than cash.

I love the attitude of "It's not perfect therefore it's rubbish" attitude with everything.

You have to remember that the NTA only really have had teeth and proper backing the last few years. All of this takes time after decades of bullshíty.

dazberry · 23-01-2021 3:29pm

If I remember back correctly (disclaimer) - depending what stage band you were in the travel 90 ticket became more expensive than the cash fare for that single journey, and it was the only prepaid ticket option for single journeys. It was great value for multiple hops, most I ever managed was 3 on one ticket, but for your regular commute you were paying for the convenience.

dublinman1990 · 24-01-2021 11:07pm

There is a photo here of a green & yellow roundel on this bus shelter in Donnycarney.

Link

bk · 25-01-2021 11:46am

The Leap 90 has an advantage over the old T90:

- It is automatic, you get it automatically even if you don't know it exists, no need to plan ahead and buy a different ticket.

As for multiple journeys being free, well that is where daily and weekly Leap capping comes in, again better because you get it automatically without needing to plan ahead or buy any special ticket, it just works.

The proposed 90 minute ticket is much better then the old T90:

- It is supposed to work across all service, DB, GAI, Luas, Dart, a true integrated ticket.

And all of this ignores the real reason most of us are excited about this ticket, it isn't money saving, etc. It is the idea that this becomes the default fare on Dublin Bus and replaces the current complicated fares bands * and finally gives us a flat fare on the bus, which should speed up boarding times and thus dwell and journey times.

Basically almost everyone will just be using the right hand validator, skipping the driver and getting a 90 minute ticket by default and optionally jumping on Luas/Dart/another bus later if they want and all without needing to pre-plan anything or needing to interact with the driver, etc.

* Yes, I'm aware the short fare will also stay under the plan, few people use that anyway and I hope in time it will be dropped too.

Dyr · 25-01-2021 11:50am

dublinman1990 wrote: »

There is a photo here of a green & yellow roundel on this bus shelter in Donnycarney.

Link

Great to see how even more utterly **** ugly the NTA are making our transport infrastructure, its like the NTA hate the concept of beauty in public spaces.

cgcsb · 25-01-2021 12:03pm

I just think it's frustrating how progress, spending and general effort is directed at the 'look' of bus stops, the livery of buses and lot's of other miscellaneous things that 99% of passengers won't notice or care about while there hasn't been any visible progress on:

-Integrated ticketing
-Building the suburban bus interchange stations (allegedly happening in advance of the cbcs)
-No planning app for any cbc has been submitted 3 years into the project
-Not one busconnects route implemented after 3 years

MJohnston · 25-01-2021 12:47pm

Bambi wrote: »

Great to see how even more utterly **** ugly the NTA are making our transport infrastructure, its like the NTA hate the concept of beauty in public spaces.

That's a bit over the top, it's pretty much a straight swap. Here's the exact same stop:

Dyr · 25-01-2021 1:02pm

MJohnston wrote: »

That's a bit over the top, it's pretty much a straight swap. Here's the exact same stop:

And its f**k ugly, I do like the addition of a new colour for the stop sign, like a jaunty little cap on a pile of sh**e

MJohnston · 25-01-2021 1:28pm

Great contributions!

bk · 25-01-2021 4:04pm

cgcsb wrote: »

I just think it's frustrating how progress, spending and general effort is directed at the 'look' of bus stops, the livery of buses and lot's of other miscellaneous things that 99% of passengers won't notice or care about while there hasn't been any visible progress on:

-Integrated ticketing
-Building the suburban bus interchange stations (allegedly happening in advance of the cbcs)
-No planning app for any cbc has been submitted 3 years into the project
-Not one busconnects route implemented after 3 years

Of course we all want to see these happen and frustrated that they are taking so long. But these elements of BusConnects are all the ones that will take far more money and FAR more time.

Designing and rolling out a new livery, branding, etc. are relatively quick and easy to do, compared to the monumental task of re-engineering roads, building infrastructure and getting the planning permission for it.

It isn't as if it is the same person who designed the new livery is also the engineer who is designing the bus interchanges, etc.!!

Of course not, completely different people, with different skillsets, in completely different teams. They can absolutely work simultaneously on different elements of the project. It isn't like rolling out the new livery is in any way delaying the other work.

And I see no evidence that money is being redirected at this re-branding versus the other work.

If your complaint is that rolling out the other elements of BusConnects is taking too long, then I agree with you 100%.

But I see no issue at all with simultaneously working on delivering the new more environmentally friendly buses, livery, branding, etc.

Peregrine · 25-01-2021 4:52pm

Three months ago, you could have said there has been no visible progress on:

- The new livery
- New bus stops
- Low emission buses

And any other part of BusConnects that aren't the two big ones and integrated ticketing. These are very different sub-projects being worked on by very different teams. A new livery obviously takes less time than rebuilding all the main arterial roads in Dublin. What would people prefer? Halt progress on these BusConnects items to avoid annoying a couple of thousand people in Dublin who actually know the different aspects of BusConnects? Make bus painters design an integrated ticketing app? Make graphic designers write up planning applications?

The size and skills of the teams working on these projects don't even compare to CBCs or the network redesign. I know progress has been frustratingly slow on those projects but it's not because of funds and priority being redirected to a couple of graphic designers working on a bus stop redesign for a few weeks.

bk · 25-01-2021 7:18pm

Also surely the reason we are getting the new livery now, is because a fleet of brand new buses is starting to arrive. This is the perfect time to roll out a new livery.

It would be incredibly stupid and wasteful to deliver these buses with the old DB/BE livery and then change them 2 or 3 years from now to the new livery when the rest of BusConnects comes along!

I assume that the new livery/branding is predicated on the delivery of the new hybrid fleet of buses. They are only doing it now because the new buses are coming. And I assume no one thinks we should have held off on ordering those!

Personally I'm very happy to finally see elements of the BusConnects plan finally start to be delivered. Hopefully this is just the start, I've no doubt more is going on in the background and hopefully we will see more soon.

bk · 25-01-2021 8:00pm

Ughh... I did just find some disappointing info about the Next Generation Ticketing project. From the tender docs:

Indicative Timeframe
1.7 The NTA would like to award the Framework Agreement in Q3 2022, with services under the initial work packages commencing within three months of the award of the Framework Agreement.

Still so long to come. They should have started this years ago!

punisher5112 · 25-01-2021 8:10pm

bk wrote: »

Ughh... I did just find some disappointing info about the Next Generation Ticketing project. From the tender docs:

Still so long to come. They should have started this years ago!

Now would be ideal for testing, teething issues etc.... Sure to so little travellers it would be great to get it sorted.
The equipment as is is absolutely terrible and loses money constantly.

Peregrine · 25-01-2021 8:33pm

bk wrote: »

Ughh... I did just find some disappointing info about the Next Generation Ticketing project. From the tender docs:

Still so long to come. They should have started this years ago!

Yeah, it was mentioned in another thread recently. A Q3 2022 contract award date means it'll be 2023 by the time it's implemented. The good news is that the contract is only for account based ticketing and the 90 min fare isn't part of that project so could still be on track to be introduced this year. While the lack of contactless card and phone payments before 2023 is disappointing, the 90 min fare is probably more important to the initial success of BusConnects.

I think a 90min fare can be implemented with the current old testament equipment and no ABT. The only impediment that I can see is reluctance to reduce farebox revenue at this time and coming to an agreement with Irish Rail about sharing the farebox revenue this year. Given that the government are pretty much guaranteeing to make up the shortfall this year anyway, I don't think Irish Rail will care much.

AlekSmart · 25-01-2021 8:53pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I would love to talk to any architect or engineer that are drawing up the plans and widths of bus stops and bus lanes as I've yet to come across any designed to accommodate an actual bus.....

Anyone know please let me know.

The Dept of the Transport maintain a VERY detailed database of such frivolities.....It is bang up to date and barely missed Covid.

https://www.trafficsigns.ie/current-traffic-signs-manual

Bus Stop and associated Bus markings are in Chapter 7,with this little gem nestling on page 58.

Here's a taster of the OFFICIAL requirements for Bus Stop Layouts.

RRM 030:
Bus Stop Markings

7.7 Bus and Tram Markings
BUS STOP (RRM 030)

7.7.1 Bus Stop Markings, RRM 030, shall only be used to indicate the
location of a bus stop, where they supplement a kerbside upright
Bus Stop Sign (RUS 031), or to indicate the location of a bus stand.
They indicate the area within which vehicles other than buses may
not stop or park.

7.7.2 It is important that buses should be able to dock parallel to and
close to the kerb, to assist passengers, particularly those with a
mobility handicap, to board and alight with ease. This can
frequently be made difficult, especially in urban areas, by a variety
of factors, some of which may be overcome by careful design.

7.7.3 The major factor in achieving parallel docking at a bus stop is the
entry and exit distance required. At a typical roadside bus stop, a
conventional 12m European standard bus requires a minimum
overall clearance of 37m of unimpeded access (see Figure 7.28);
an articulated bus needs 49m. Vehicles parked or loading
adjacent to the bus stop can result in buses failing to achieve
parallel docking or having to stop too far from the kerb, requiring
passengers to step into the carriageway to board and alight.

It is perhaps a matter for the Minister for Transport to ascertain whether the relevant Departmental Officials have actually read their own publications,as current indications would suggest they have not.

cgcsb · 25-01-2021 9:01pm

bk wrote: »

Also surely the reason we are getting the new livery now, is because a fleet of brand new buses is starting to arrive. This is the perfect time to roll out a new livery.

It would be incredibly stupid and wasteful to deliver these buses with the old DB/BE livery and then change them 2 or 3 years from now to the new livery when the rest of BusConnects comes along!

I assume that the new livery/branding is predicated on the delivery of the new hybrid fleet of buses. They are only doing it now because the new buses are coming. And I assume no one thinks we should have held off on ordering those!

Personally I'm very happy to finally see elements of the BusConnects plan finally start to be delivered. Hopefully this is just the start, I've no doubt more is going on in the background and hopefully we will see more soon.

I get all that, but from the public's point of view integrated ticketing has been coming for 12 years after already being decades behind the rest of Europe. No doubt some work is being done but the optics are another new bus livery and a new colour scheme at bus stops.

That being said public transport in Dublin generally has improved in the past 10 years, still integrated ticketing is bread and butter stuff and all we get is missed deadlines and spin.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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