Home heating automation

CrazyFather1

Every month the suppliers have a "deal" on the table either direct or via one of the other 3rd parties

Normally you see the discount is reduced and you get a smart something. Personally I wouldn't bother with the smart something as you will find it will cost you a fortune over the term of the contract. It is better to get the higher discount up front and then buy the system yourself. The installation "seems" easy from what I have looked at on YouTube etc. Of course you might read in paper "man electrocuted while trying to upgrade heating system" :-)

ARGINITE

Is there an alternative to Hive for heating and stored hot water controls?
What do others recommend?

deezell

ARGINITE wrote: »

Is there an alternative to Hive for heating and stored hot water controls?
What do others recommend?

Drayton Wiser, Tado, Nest, Honeywell are the front runners in the Smart category. Other thermostat /timer controllers with remote internet spp access include Climote, EPH Ember. Not all can integrate smart radiator TRVs into their system, Drayton, Hive, Tado and Honeywell Evohome are the front runners for this.

arrianalexander

Looking to switch to smart option,

currently have the timer in the kitchen find attached , with one thermostat in hallway and another upstairs on landing


we have oil heating

which option is available to me if any ?

deezell

arrianalexander wrote: »

Looking to switch to smart option,

currently have the timer in the kitchen find attached , with one thermostat in hallway and another upstairs on landing


we have oil heating

which option is available to me if any ?

Your system may have motorised valves for all three zones. If so, it can be operated by any of the Smart systems. The Drayton system might be the simplest install. Can you open the grasslin (loosen the base screw a little and hinge up and off), and take a pic of the wiring on the base plate. I'm hoping the CH On terminal hast two connections, one each to the wall stats. This would facilitate a simple connection of the Drayton receiver in place of the grasslin.

Fujitsu10

deezell wrote: »

First check your valves, and see if there are unused wires coming from the valve motorised actuators, in addition to the live and neutral which power the acuator. There should be an extra pair, usually grey and orange, which are connected to a microswitch which closes when the valve is powered open. If these switches are there, retain the old timer to power the HW, but disconnect it from the boiler Switched Live (SL) in. Connect the new Tado stat to supply live to operate the HW valve. Now wire the valve microswitches to fire the boiler, permanent live in on one pole of each, say, Grey, and switched live from the other poles, Orange, to the boiler SL in. This way either HW timing or Tado stat CH timing will fire the boiler, with each opening their valve independently.
If your motorised valve actuators have no microswitch, you can box up a pair of mains relays to combine the timer outputs as a single SL to the boiler, or you can buy replacement actuator heads with the microswitches built in, to create a proper S plan circuit, where the boiler only fires when a valve has physically opened, and operated its microswitch. Using just relays will fire the boiler even if a valve is stuck shut.

Thanks for all the great advice, the valves aren't easily accessible where they are installed. The ground floor valve is behind the kitchen unit in the utility room and the first floor valve is in the hot press on the first floor (Way too awkward to run a cable to). I have gathered the makings of a relay box controller which will allow me to switch both valves at the same time and allow me to select HW (Boiler only running). When the CH is selected it will energise both valves and heat upstairs and downstairs at the same time. (That will be fine for my use)
Can you tell me if the TRV's can call for the boiler to start via the Wireless receiver, or is the wireless receiver only controlled from the wireless stat? Or is it possible to have either TRV's or Wireless receiver calling the burner to run? I'm asking this as there is a schedule for the TRV's also on the APP, it's not very clear to me if for example the TRV is set to 20c and the room temp is say 16c and the schedule is set for 20c during this period will the boiler fire up?
It would be nice also as you suggested previously to fit a stat on the HW cylinder to control the boiler once the water temperature has been reached. Could you recommend a suitable stat for this? It would be best if this could be wireless as running a cable would not be easy. Thanks as always, the help is greatly appreciated.

DrPhilG

Question re smart heating when there are dual heating sources.

I have oil central heating. I also have a slack coal burner on the same circuit. We use the slack burner more in winter when it's freezing and we want to leave the heat on 24/7, and the oil when it's milder and a few hours a day is enough.

I currently have a standard single channel clock, and 2 zone switches, living area and bedrooms. The heating zones are self explanatory and if both switches are off, it just heats the water.

I currently have a DIY smart setup whereby the oil burner is plugged into a smart plug which I can control remotely. However I'd prefer to have a proper smart system.

The problem though, is this even possible with that slack burner in place? I know that the smart controls, the oil burner turns on/off as required, but that isn't an option with the slack burner. It is temperature controlled at the unit but that doesn't link with anything else. It's basically a dumb heat source.

Any suggestions? Or is it possible to just have smart TRVs without a smart controller?

Or should I just disconnect the slack burner and flog the damn thing?

deezell

Fujitsu10 wrote: »

Thanks for all the great advice, the valves aren't easily accessible where they are installed. The ground floor valve is behind the kitchen unit in the utility room and the first floor valve is in the hot press on the first floor (Way too awkward to run a cable to). I have gathered the makings of a relay box controller which will allow me to switch both valves at the same time and allow me to select HW (Boiler only running). When the CH is selected it will energise both valves and heat upstairs and downstairs at the same time. (That will be fine for my use)
Can you tell me if the TRV's can call for the boiler to start via the Wireless receiver, or is the wireless receiver only controlled from the wireless stat? Or is it possible to have either TRV's or Wireless receiver calling the burner to run? I'm asking this as there is a schedule for the TRV's also on the APP, it's not very clear to me if for example the TRV is set to 20c and the room temp is say 16c and the schedule is set for 20c during this period will the boiler fire up?
It would be nice also as you suggested previously to fit a stat on the HW cylinder to control the boiler once the water temperature has been reached. Could you recommend a suitable stat for this? It would be best if this could be wireless as running a cable would not be easy. Thanks as always, the help is greatly appreciated.

A TRV is assigned to a zone stat as it's
Boiler relay. If its connected wirelessly, then it will also close the ext kit relay, which is used to fire the boiler. If the TRV valve opens for hot flow when it detects a lower than scheduled temperature, it instructs the stat relay to close and fire the boiler. Note that in a partial TRV installation, all other non TRV rads will heat, though the main stat may already have reached it's target. This is not an issue in a full TRV setup, only the calling TRVs will be open A TRV located in and slaved to the main stat and room (hall or landing say), will open when the main stat calls the boiler for its own stat schedule. When other TRVs' call, it will not open its own slaved TRV if the stat itself is at target. The same holds true if the stat is just a relay for the TRV in its zone, the TRV being assigned as measuring device and the stat is just a relay, its own temperature measuring is not used to trigger it's relay.

Use something like this instead of a wired cylinder stat.
http://www.gasapplianceguide.co.uk/drayton_digistat_plus%20C%20RF%20thermostat.htm

ARGINITE

deezell wrote: »

Drayton Wiser, Tado, Nest, Honeywell are the front runners in the Smart category. Other thermostat /timer controllers with remote internet spp access include Climote, EPH Ember. Not all can integrate smart radiator TRVs into their system, Drayton, Hive, Tado and Honeywell Evohome are the front runners for this.

I have looked at Tado but it didn't see a mention of support for stored hot water, have I missed this?

deezell

[

ARGINITE wrote: »

I have looked at Tado but it didn't see a mention of support for stored hot water, have I missed this?

Yes, the Tado extension kit is a wireless receiver relay for the Tado stat, for existing installations where there is no pre wired wall stat. The receiver connects to fire the boiler and/or open a zone valve. This receiver also has an additional HW timer and relay, which can be used to fire the boiler for HW only, in a gravity mode. pumped or zone valved system. If you currently have a wall controller timer with CH timing and boost buttins, and also HW timing and boost, installation is a very simple exchange. Tado is not that versatile if uou have two CH zones and HW, you can only have one wireless stat in a system, so an additional stat for upstairs say would have to he wired in place of an existing manual stat, or else additional wires would need to be run to the upstairs zone valve if your system onlt had timing but no stat on it's zones.

CrazyFather1

DrPhilG wrote: »

Question re smart heating when there are dual heating sources.

I have oil central heating. I also have a slack coal burner on the same circuit. We use the slack burner more in winter when it's freezing and we want to leave the heat on 24/7, and the oil when it's milder and a few hours a day is enough.

I currently have a standard single channel clock, and 2 zone switches, living area and bedrooms. The heating zones are self explanatory and if both switches are off, it just heats the water.

I currently have a DIY smart setup whereby the oil burner is plugged into a smart plug which I can control remotely. However I'd prefer to have a proper smart system.

The problem though, is this even possible with that slack burner in place? I know that the smart controls, the oil burner turns on/off as required, but that isn't an option with the slack burner. It is temperature controlled at the unit but that doesn't link with anything else. It's basically a dumb heat source.

Any suggestions? Or is it possible to just have smart TRVs without a smart controller?

Or should I just disconnect the slack burner and flog the damn thing?

When you say slack burner, is that a solid fuel stove or something else?

deezell

DrPhilG wrote: »

Question re smart heating when there are dual heating sources.

I have oil central heating. I also have a slack coal burner on the same circuit. We use the slack burner more in winter when it's freezing and we want to leave the heat on 24/7, and the oil when it's milder and a few hours a day is enough.

I currently have a standard single channel clock, and 2 zone switches, living area and bedrooms. The heating zones are self explanatory and if both switches are off, it just heats the water.

I currently have a DIY smart setup whereby the oil burner is plugged into a smart plug which I can control remotely. However I'd prefer to have a proper smart system.

The problem though, is this even possible with that slack burner in place? I know that the smart controls, the oil burner turns on/off as required, but that isn't an option with the slack burner. It is temperature controlled at the unit but that doesn't link with anything else. It's basically a dumb heat source.

Any suggestions? Or is it possible to just have smart TRVs without a smart controller?

Or should I just disconnect the slack burner and flog the damn thing?

The simplest solution for a solid fuel system into a controlled boiler system is to have a pipe stat on the hot flow of the stove, which will switch on a circulation pump and also open the valves for the CH zones. You can install a smart zone system like Drayton or Tado to take over control of your existing two CH and HW system, you will need a few additional relays to have the stove pipe stat turn on its pump and open both CH valves, assuming its valved, though it may be pumped. This wiring logic is best achieved with a wiring centre know as a lex box. I've answered this many times in the past here, but it makes the wiring and the logic very simple to understand and install. Wiring for zoned systems can get very messy, very fast.

arrianalexander

deezell wrote: »

Your system may have motorised valves for all three zones. If so, it can be operated by any of the Smart systems. The Drayton system might be the simplest install. Can you open the grasslin (loosen the base screw a little and hinge up and off), and take a pic of the wiring on the base plate. I'm hoping the CH On terminal hast two connections, one each to the wall stats. This would facilitate a simple connection of the Drayton receiver in place of the grasslin.

Hi

Thanks for reply

I hope this is what you wanted to see ?

Ethereal Cereal

deezell wrote: »

Nest is a nice piece of kit. It does not have TRV option though. Borď gais are doing a free Hive stat plus Echo dot offer, you can add hive TRVs later.
https://www.bordgaisenergy.ie/campaigns/bord-gais-energy-bundle?gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6Or_BRC_ARIsAPzuer9wRQ2JJW0AbqgXupi8utWYohNlKvhviMUzLw3NVjWpm1vBjYmP7hAaAngZEALw_wcB

Any opinions on the Netatmo thermostat? I'm thinking of switching providers to energia to avail of this promotion.

https://www.energia.ie/cosy-homes/netatmo-offers

Will I be able to add smart trv's myself to each room after this is installed? I have a single zone heating system.

DrPhilG

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

When you say slack burner, is that a solid fuel stove or something else?

One of these:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/bestchoicehomeheating.wordpress.com/2017/06/07/best-choice-dpbi-35kw-defro-wood-pellet-boiler-log-burner-peat-coal-biomass/amp/

DrPhilG

deezell wrote: »

You can install a smart zone system like Drayton or Tado to take over control of your existing two CH and HW system

This is my current control. It's only a single channel clock with 2 manual switches.



Can't I just put in a smart system that I can flick a switch and make dumb in the event that I'm using the slack burner?

Currently if I light the slack burner I just unplug the oil burner and leave the pumps etc running.

deezell

DrPhilG wrote: »

This is my current control. It's only a single channel clock with 2 manual switches.



Can't I just put in a smart system that I can flick a switch and make dumb in the event that I'm using the slack burner?

Currently if I light the slack burner I just unplug the oil burner and leave the pumps etc running.

You can replace the the single timer and two switches with a smart stat/controller such as the Drayton wiser. You'd need to establish if the CH and HW zones are separated by motorised valves, or just fed by pumps. If it is plumbedcand wired in an S - Plan, with three valves and valve relays to the bouler, then its a simple swap. If its just the timer to the boiler, open feed to the hw cylinder and two switches to the CH valves, that requires a slightly different wiring scheme as your motorised valves are probably not wired to call the boiler when open, the timer is most likely wired directly.
That slack/pellet burner is a beast alright, but its an automated unit, it can be called and fired like an oil boiler under timer control. Such a system can be wired to fire alternatively from the oul bouler by using a simple switch, but would require additional stat control to delay the change from oul to slack as the fire up time delay is obviously significant. It's understandable why your entire system is practically manual, but its perfectly possible to automate both boilers, I've no doubt the slack burner has some relays built in, to take over from oil when up to heat, and to hand back when it stops runs out of fuel, but it is meant to be installed as a system boiler, not as a manual device. You will need to consult with a heating engineer to integrate it properly, its probably best not to DIY it.
Meantime, check how your zones are managed. Are there motorised valves, how many? Can you heat CH without HW?

CrazyFather1

DrPhilG wrote: »

One of these:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/bestchoicehomeheating.wordpress.com/2017/06/07/best-choice-dpbi-35kw-defro-wood-pellet-boiler-log-burner-peat-coal-biomass/amp/

F**k me that's a monster, I guess you have in the shed?

I have a solid fuel stove in the house and looking to dump it for something better.

deezell

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

F**k me that's a monster, I guess you have in the shed?

I have a solid fuel stove in the house and looking to dump it for something better.

That yoke would fit nicely in your sitting room.😁

DrPhilG

deezell wrote: »

You'd need to establish if the CH and HW zones are separated by motorised valves, or just fed by pumps

Motorised valves as far as I know.

deezell wrote: »

That slack/pellet burner is a beast alright, but its an automated unit, it can be called and fired like an oil boiler under timer control.

Not sure what you mean. The burner has to be manually lit and if the flame goes out then its curtains until someone manually relight it.

I know it goes into standby mode if it's warm enough that it doesn't need to burn if that's what you're talking about?

I've done some calculations this morning and the slack burner just isn't making financial sense. Oil would need to hit €800 for 1000L for th coal to be cheaper to run. And that's on smoky coal. If the smokeless ban hits rural areas, the price of coal near doubles.

So leaning strongly towards flogging it.

deezell wrote: »

Meantime, check how your zones are managed. Are there motorised valves, how many? Can you heat CH without HW?

2 zones, no thermostats. Can't heat the CH without heating the water. 2 motorised valves I think.

DrPhilG

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

F**k me that's a monster, I guess you have in the shed?

Out in the garage lol.

deezell

DrPhilG wrote: »

Motorised valves as far as I know.



Not sure what you mean. The burner has to be manually lit and if the flame goes out then its curtains until someone manually relight it.

I know it goes into standby mode if it's warm enough that it doesn't need to burn if that's what you're talking about?

2 zones, no thermostats. Can't heat the CH without heating the water. 2 motorised valves I think.

The link you attached described a fully autonomous self running burner, it even states it's a direct drop in for a system boiler. I'd agree about cost though, just look up the SEAI energy tables.
With your current boiler running in gravity mode for HW, you will need additional wiring from the zone valves to supply boiler firing SL if you install any three zone smart control system. This is because your two switches only open the zone valves, they don't fire the boiler. Effectively, you have a single HW timer, and this must be on for any CH zone to heat. If you install a HW motorised valve, and them wire all three valve relays to supply firing voltage to the boiler, all three zones will be independent, in an S plan.
Alternatively, you will have to either wire back the CH zone valves to the HW timer SL, or install a 3 zone controller which has a gravity mode, whereby all zone timers are combined to fire the boiler via the HW terminal, and the CH1 and CH2 terminals are just used to open the valves.
Definitely, flog the big burner, someone with his own timber and chipper might use it.

DrPhilG

deezell wrote: »

The link you attached described a fully autonomous self running burner, it even states it's a direct drop in for a system boiler. I'd agree about cost though, just look up the SEAI energy tables.

Sorry I just googled a Defro boiler to give a general description. Maybe a different model.

It has a hopper that feeds the coal in itself but that's about it as far as I know.

CrazyFather1

deezell wrote: »

That yoke would fit nicely in your sitting room.😁

Great drying for the clothes

killbillvol2

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Great drying for the clothes

I hang the childer on it after their monthly bath.

arrianalexander

arrianalexander wrote: »

Hi

Thanks for reply

I hope this is what you wanted to see ?

Looking into the hive and it's seems.a relatively easy replacement for it

arrianalexander

arrianalexander wrote: »

Looking into the hive and it's seems.a relatively easy replacement for it

Sorry here is pic

deezell

arrianalexander wrote: »

Sorry here is pic

It's not immediately clear from that pic if there are one or two wires leaving terminal 4. The importance of this is that a three zone smart controller/wireless stat receiver will have three output terminals, HW. CH1 and CH2. In your system a single timer us available for both zones, which is then split to Stat1 and Stat2. If the split is done at the controller, two wires out, wiring is easy. If the single timer output from termimal 4 is taken first to Stat1, then looped to Stat2, it becomes a lot more difficult.

deezell

It will still be possible to connect nonetheless, as with hive, you will have two receivers, one for HW and CH, and a second one for the second CH zone. The first receiver can be wired as a replacement for the Grasslin, the second can be located next to the second CH zone valve, and wired to replace the switched live coming from the old timer via it's wall stat.

arrianalexander

deezell wrote: »

It will still be possible to connect nonetheless, as with hive, you will have two receivers, one for HW and CH, and a second one for the second CH zone. The first receiver can be wired as a replacement for the Grasslin, the second can be located next to the second CH zone valve, and wired to replace the switched live coming from the old timer via it's wall stat.

N 2 wires
L 2 wires
1- 0 wires
2 - 0 wires
3 - 1 wire
4 - 1 wire


We don't use it to heat water only for heating , the water does heat up a little if we have heating on , we don't heat water on its own, if we do want a lot of hot water we would use immersion.