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The easiest examples to show for all those who think that accuracy matters more then distance is to look at the difference between LPGA and PGA Tour players, the ladies are much more accurate, the average driver speed on the LPGA is 93/94 mph, it's 113/114 mph on the PGA Tour, not one LPGA tour player would even come close to keeping a card on the PGA tour, in fact they would do well to make a cut.
It's roughly 2.4 yards distance per mph, so 20 mph difference in the average speeds would be up to 48 yards. This 48 yards will equate to about 4-5 shots per round difference.
Distance trumps accuracy, 25 yard distance gains mean a big jump in performance. For the OP with his 5 iron and anyone else looking to get better, learn to swing the club faster, especially now when there is no golf.0 -
I am a very poor 14 hcap golfer. I average 254 yards with my driver and lose a fair share of balls in hazards, trees oobs ect.
Regardless of course if you let me add 26yards distance to every one of my drives I would hammer the the 10 hcap golfer that averages 200 in middle of fairway everytime.
Also the 10 hcap /200 average is still gona miss their fair share of fairways too even if super accurate0 -
ShivasIrons wrote: »The easiest examples to show for all those who think that accuracy matters more then distance is to look at the difference between LPGA and PGA Tour players, the ladies are much more accurate, the average driver speed on the LPGA is 93/94 mph, it's 113/114 mph on the PGA Tour, not one LPGA tour player would even come close to keeping a card on the PGA tour, in fact they would do well to make a cut.
It's roughly 2.4 yards distance per mph, so 20 mph difference in the average speeds would be up to 48 yards. This 48 yards will equate to about 4-5 shots per round difference.
Distance trumps accuracy, 25 yard distance gains mean a big jump in performance. For the OP with his 5 iron and anyone else looking to get better, learn to swing the club faster, especially now when there is no golf.
What you're saying is true with regards to professionals but i don't think its as straight forward for the average golfer.....as i've said before, most amatures won't have the skill or club head speed to deal with the waywood shots from heavy or even semi rough and thats if they find it or at the very least not without a decent short game.....you (not you personally) wouldn't last very long on a links course if you prioritized length over accuracy thats for sure....0 -
What you're saying is true with regards to professionals but i don't think its as straight forward for the average golfer.....as i've said before, most amatures won't have the skill or club head speed to deal with the waywood shots from heavy or even semi rough and thats if they find it or at the very least not without a decent short game.....you (not you personally) wouldn't last very long on a links course if you prioritized length over accuracy thats for sure....
If they are closer to the hole these shots become easier, which is easier a 120 shot from the rough or 200 from the fairway?0 -
redzerdrog wrote: »I am a very poor 14 hcap golfer. I average 254 yards with my driver and lose a fair share of balls in hazards, trees oobs ect.
Regardless of course if you let me add 26yards distance to every one of my drives I would hammer the the 10 hcap golfer that averages 200 in middle of fairway everytime.
Also the 10 hcap /200 average is still gona miss their fair share of fairways too even if super accurate
I think this is way off.....with your current performance you say you lose your fair share of balls in hazards and tree, etc (sounds familiar:()....and then say if you added 26 yds to your every one of your drives, you'd hammer the short hitting 10 handicapper in the middle of the fairway, every time?? not so sure....if you add 26 yds onto every one if your drives, without addressing accuracy, then you can be sure that those extra yds will turn semi into heavy and heavy into OB/trees on a lot of holes so for sure you're losing an extra ball or two on top of the ones you admit you already lose....i get that the extra yardage will be a big help on the holes you nail it down the middle or just off the fairway but you have to balance that against the extra trouble you'll encounter for the same amount of (in)accuracy....hitting a couple of irons lower into your average par 4 isnt a guarantee of a birdie for example...you might nick one or two that you otherwise wouldn't have with the longer iron but in the majority if cases, just mean a less stressful par....
i'm a very similar length player, i.e. average around 250 and capable of 275/280 once a round say, but for the average length course i see the route to a better score to be better course management and my short game (which is terrible)...extra length without a corresponding improvement in accuracy will only take you so far (no pun intended!) without a good short game in my opinion.....0 -
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My driver swing speed is 84mph and my world handicap is 6.0, so I'm 5 and less at plenty of courses. If I every practiced my short game I could be a good golfer:)
Fair play - that is a fantastic achievement - and I've nothing but admiration for guys that can do that. But you are fairly unusual.
You must be unreal with fairway woods and hybrids ?
What is the total distance of your course from normal tees ?0 -
ShivasIrons wrote: »If they are closer to the hole these shots become easier, which is easier a 120 shot from the rough or 200 from the fairway?
I understand that but that's an extreme example...for most people trying to add distance to their game, you're probably talking more like a couple of club length difference.....i'd be surprised if there was that many 200 yd average drivers who can sustain a 10 handicap unless say for example they're a senior player who's average is coming down but still have the all round skill....there's also not that many 10 handicapper that can average 280 i'd guess....sure many can boom one out there that distance depending on the conditions but "average", i'd say they're few and far between until you get to low single figures....just my guess.....0 -
https://www.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/HandicapVsAverageDriverClubSpeed.jpg
I think what people underestimate is the impact on lower irons.
Say you are hitting a ball over water on a 180 yard par 3. The flight , the hole , the accuracy is very different with say a 7 or 6 iron over a 4 iron or more.
There are advantages across a few areas. Swing speed and power are important in many other parts of the game.
Shots from rough
Tough wind conditions
Playing in winter conditions or cold conditions.
Long and mid bunker shots
Reaching holes in regulation (every time)
Reaching holes under regulation
People talk about course management - but speed / power gives a much wider shot selection - two 5 irons to a par 4 - take driver out of play.
More power / speed also gives more shot choices like - punch - draw - fade
People in the amateur game go - he is long but all over the place - and yes you see that., but power can be used in a few ways across the game - not just brainless bombing.0 -
FixdePitchmark wrote: »https://www.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/HandicapVsAverageDriverClubSpeed.jpg
I think what people underestimate is the impact on lower irons.
Say you are hitting a ball over water on a 180 yard par 3. The flight , the hole , the accuracy is very different with say a 7 or 6 iron over a 4 iron or more.
There are advantages across a few areas. Swing speed and power are important in many other parts of the game.
Shots from rough
Tough wind conditions
Playing in winter conditions or cold conditions.
Long and mid bunker shots
Reaching holes in regulation (every time)
Reaching holes under regulation
People talk about course management - but speed / power gives a much wider shoot selection - 2 5 irons to a par 4 - take driver out of play.
More power / speed also gives more shot choices like - punch - draw - fade
People in the amateur game go - he is long but all over the place - and yes you see that., but power can be used in a few ways across the game - not just brainless bombing.
All true and valid points in favour of power/swing speed....as i would have said myself earlier, the distance v accuracy argument is complex and can be logically argued either way depending on the individual.....personally, at the moment, where my game is, i'd prefer more accuracy over distance on the course...but that's because i'm reasonably long for my handicap so would be regularly hitting short irons into par 4s and my misses tend to be disproportionately punished (i.e. i don't actually miss that many fairways but when i do, ...maybe i'd think different if i was significantly shorter....0 -
FixdePitchmark wrote: »https://www.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/HandicapVsAverageDriverClubSpeed.jpg
I think what people underestimate is the impact on lower irons.
Say you are hitting a ball over water on a 180 yard par 3. The flight , the hole , the accuracy is very different with say a 7 or 6 iron over a 4 iron or more.
There are advantages across a few areas. Swing speed and power are important in many other parts of the game.
Shots from rough
Tough wind conditions
Playing in winter conditions or cold conditions.
Long and mid bunker shots
Reaching holes in regulation (every time)
Reaching holes under regulation
People talk about course management - but speed / power gives a much wider shot selection - two 5 irons to a par 4 - take driver out of play.
More power / speed also gives more shot choices like - punch - draw - fade
People in the amateur game go - he is long but all over the place - and yes you see that., but power can be used in a few ways across the game - not just brainless bombing.
Also, the benefits to swing speed as described above are probably the reason why you are more likely to have a really good amature, at least single figures, with a high swing speed than a low speed as to get down to a low handicap you really need to have next level skill in the areas you describe above....0 -
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ShivasIrons wrote: »The easiest examples to show for all those who think that accuracy matters more then distance is to look at the difference between LPGA and PGA Tour players, the ladies are much more accurate, the average driver speed on the LPGA is 93/94 mph, it's 113/114 mph on the PGA Tour, not one LPGA tour player would even come close to keeping a card on the PGA tour, in fact they would do well to make a cut.
It's roughly 2.4 yards distance per mph, so 20 mph difference in the average speeds would be up to 48 yards. This 48 yards will equate to about 4-5 shots per round difference.
Distance trumps accuracy, 25 yard distance gains mean a big jump in performance. For the OP with his 5 iron and anyone else looking to get better, learn to swing the club faster, especially now when there is no golf.
Ah come on! Show me a tour pro who regards a round as a good one when he finishes with the same ball and then I'll consider it to be comparable! When people talk about accuracy on tour for the most part they're talking about fairway vs rough, not 1-3 lost drives per round!
Talking about an amateur who has to reload on the tee at least once around isn't an extreme example, it's fairly regular in every club in the country. Distance is great, but only at the expense of accuracy if you're missing the fairway by a few yards. When you get to the realms of losing balls or going into trees and bushes, every time you do it you're losing a shot or two. What you will gain from occasionally reaching greens in two that others can't or from hitting a 7i into a green when others are hitting a 4 will quickly be lost to playing 3 off the tee, dropping from unplayable lies and punching out from under trees.
One other thing to mention actually is that on some holes even the shorter hitter will just be hitting a driver 9i or the like. It's no great advantage to be hitting driver 3/4 wedge. Most amateurs aren't any better from 80 yards than they are from 120. So they could hit less from the tee. Because in that instance they're probably better off being accurate than long.
So is distance more important than accuracy? I'd take an extra 30 yards from the tee more often than not if it meant I was just into the rough. But 14 drives on or beside the fairway vs 10-12 on or beside the fairway and the rest very possibly scratched holes? If it's a good score I'm after it's the 14 drives in play any day.0 -
Ah come on! Show me a tour pro who regards a round as a good one when he finishes with the same ball and then I'll consider it to be comparable! When people talk about accuracy on tour for the most part they're talking about fairway vs rough, not 1-3 lost drives per round!
Talking about an amateur who has to reload on the tee at least once around isn't an extreme example, it's fairly regular in every club in the country. Distance is great, but only at the expense of accuracy if you're missing the fairway by a few yards. When you get to the realms of losing balls or going into trees and bushes, every time you do it you're losing a shot or two. What you will gain from occasionally reaching greens in two that others can't or from hitting a 7i into a green when others are hitting a 4 will quickly be lost to playing 3 off the tee, dropping from unplayable lies and punching out from under trees.
One other thing to mention actually is that on some holes even the shorter hitter will just be hitting a driver 9i or the like. It's no great advantage to be hitting driver 3/4 wedge. Most amateurs aren't any better from 80 yards than they are from 120. So they could hit less from the tee. Because in that instance they're probably better off being accurate than long.
So is distance more important than accuracy? I'd take an extra 30 yards from the tee more often than not if it meant I was just into the rough. But 14 drives on or beside the fairway vs 10-12 on or beside the fairway and the rest very possibly scratched holes? If it's a good score I'm after it's the 14 drives in play any day.
yeah, i'd agree 100% with the above.....also in reference to the post you replied to, there's very few decent golfers who can add the 20mph swing speed they mention which would add 48yds to their drives.....not a hope....i'd say if you could add 5 to 10mph you'd be doing well while still being in reasonable control of the club.....most fit and decent golfers are already swinging at a reasonable speed relative to what extra they could gain while still being "in control" such that you've some hope of keeping the ball in play....0 -
yeah, i'd agree 100% with the above.....also in reference to the post you replied to, there's very few decent golfers who can add the 20mph swing speed they mention which would add 48yds to their drives.....not a hope....i'd say if you could add 5 to 10mph you'd be doing well while still being in reasonable control of the club.....most fit and decent golfers are already swinging at a reasonable speed relative to what extra they could gain while still being "in control" such that you've some hope of keeping the ball in play....
That's very true. I was fitted for a driver and surprised when I tried to smash one how few extra mph I was getting. I'd say it was about 4mph extra when I really wound up for one. Oddly, when I did that they were possibly going straighter too. I think the slight extra rotation meant I was going around my body more and lessening the chance of me coming from over the top, but that's a side issue. Swinging what I would regard as easy, I was losing about 2mph. Swinging faster than I'd consider on the course, I was gaining at most 4.0 -
For those that feel they can't hold back the tide of diminishing distance as you age. Mark Crossfield has a few interesting videos on YouTube. He is mid 40's and has increased his speed to 112mph. He is only a slight man too. Use of the legs and the ground seems to be very important.0
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[Deleted User] wrote: »For those that feel they can't hold back the tide of diminishing distance as you age. Mark Crossfield has a few interesting videos on YouTube. He is mid 40's and has increased his speed to 112mph. He is only a slight man too. Use of the legs and the ground seems to be very important.
Yeah that last bit is true alright....picked it up on YouTube, probably Rick, and tried it out, ie driving from feet up on the down swing to generate extra power and defo felt it was working...then the pandemic hit and lost it all🀦*♂️0 -
FixdePitchmark wrote: »Fair play - that is a fantastic achievement - and I've nothing but admiration for guys that can do that. But you are fairly unusual.
You must be unreal with fairway woods and hybrids ?
What is the total distance of your course from normal tees ?
6900 off the middle tees, it's not a short course, considering my last home course was closer to 5800yards.
Well I can swing faster, but I get out of sync and tempo goes out the window. I've a positive AOA combined with a low loft driver I can produce low spin and normal a bit of run out. I'm average enough with the rest of the game but 14/14 FIR would be normal enough. I'd rather be 30 yards back in the fairway, mainly due to me being a sweeper and not compressing the ball enough, means I don't get good contact out of the rough.
I'd agree with the general consensus, more length = lower scores, but thinking of the good players in my club, a trend would be good short games and slightly above average driving length, I can't think of one golfer who's long off the tee, average short game and low handicap (less than 5).0 -
Most amateurs aren't any better from 80 yards than they are from 120. So they could hit less from the tee. Because in that instance they're probably better off being accurate than long.
This is totally and utterly incorrect. There is tons of data that proves otherwise and the vast vast majority of golfers of every level will have a closer proximity to the hole from 80 yards rather than 120 yards0 -
redzerdrog wrote: »This is totally and utterly incorrect. There is tons of data that proves otherwise and the vast vast majority of golfers of every level will have a closer proximity to the hole from 80 yards rather than 120 yards
I’m sure what you’re saying is correct but it’s meaningless unless you relate it to the stats associated with the closer putting....what I mean is will they get it close enough whereby they’ve a significantly better chance of making the putt for it make a difference to the round...for example if a mid handicapper can get it to 10 ft from 80 yds compared to 15-20 ft from 120, they still only have a 1 in 5 chance of making that putt anyway and how many will they have of that length in a round?and I’d consider hitting to 10ft from 80 yds pretty good going by most standards.... So a more comfortable 2 putt from closer range is still a 2 putt....0 -
I’m sure what you’re saying is correct but it’s meaningless unless you relate it to the stats associated with the closer putting....what I mean is will they get it close enough whereby they’ve a significantly better chance of making the putt for it make a difference to the round...for example if a mid handicapper can get it to 10 ft from 80 yds compared to 15-20 ft from 120, they still only have a 1 in 5 chance of making that putt anyway and how many will they have of that length in a round?and I’d consider hitting to 10ft from 80 yds pretty good going by most standards.... So a more comfortable 2 putt from closer range is still a 2 putt....
You maybe correct for 80 & 120, but at those distances even the shortest hitters if they’re regular golfers are taking no more than a 9 iron from 120 so they should find the putting surface more often than not. A more valid comparison is 130 vs 170. Most mid handicappers will hit the green probably at least 50% of the time from 130 in the fairway, but from 170 shorter hitters in particular may be getting into 1 in 3 or 4 territory to hit the green, whereas the fella at 130, even from a first cut should be getting to 20 feet. The difference between the two is exponentially magnified if one guy is putting and the other is in a bunker or has a short sided chip.0 -
I’m sure what you’re saying is correct but it’s meaningless unless you relate it to the stats associated with the closer putting....what I mean is will they get it close enough whereby they’ve a significantly better chance of making the putt for it make a difference to the round...for example if a mid handicapper can get it to 10 ft from 80 yds compared to 15-20 ft from 120, they still only have a 1 in 5 chance of making that putt anyway and how many will they have of that length in a round?and I’d consider hitting to 10ft from 80 yds pretty good going by most standards.... So a more comfortable 2 putt from closer range is still a 2 putt....
Without knowing the exact figures I imagine 10ft proximity from 80 yards is above pga tour average. You really are talking nonsense here an extra 10 ft of proximity further from the hole will increase 3 putts rather than just a less comfortable 2 putt. That's even if they hit the green from 1200 -
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From 80 yards the pga tour average proximity is about 13ft.
With a 9 iron in hand the average golfer will only hit the green 43% of the time with a avarage proximity of 44ft. 99.9999% of golfers will shoot lower scores from 80yards than 120yards.0 -
redzerdrog wrote: »Without knowing the exact figures I imagine 10ft proximity from 80 yards is above pga tour average. You really are talking nonsense here an extra 10 ft of proximity further from the hole will increase 3 putts rather than just a less comfortable 2 putt. That's even if they hit the green from 120
You’re missing my point....I was agreeing with your point about hitting closer but I was merely following that up by saying it needs to be related to putting stats for that to be translated into a significant difference to the score....I used hypothetical figures to illustrate the point...I never claimed them to be fact....0 -
You’re missing my point....I was agreeing with your point about hitting closer but I was merely following that up by saying it needs to be related to putting stats for that to be translated into a significant difference to the score....I used hypothetical figures to illustrate the point...I never claimed them to be fact....
I doesn't need to be related what so ever. Again 99.9999% of golfers will shoot lower scores from 30ft than 44ft0 -
redzerdrog wrote: »From 80 yards the pga tour average proximity is about 13ft.
With a 9 iron in hand the average golfer will only hit the green 43% of the time with a avarage proximity of 44ft. 99.9999% of golfers will shoot lower scores from 80yards than 120yards.
I would absolutely guarantee you I would hit a worse score with 80 yd approaches compared to 120 because i can’t hit a 3/4 shot properly. I always leave myself 100yd shot so by your rationale I guess I’m in that .0001% category....0 -
I would absolutely guarantee you I would hit a worse score with 80 yd approaches compared to 120 because i can’t hit a 3/4 shot properly. I always leave myself 100yd shot so by your rationale I guess I’m in that .0001% category....
I would say you are most likely over exaggerating how well you hit it from 1200 -
redzerdrog wrote: »I doesn't need to be related what so ever. Again 99.9999% of golfers will shoot lower scores from 30ft than 44ft
Hmmm k....whatever....just challenging your opinion, thought that’s what we were doing in this thread....
You’re assuming the gain in 40yrds off the tee comes at no cost to accuracy.....personally I’d prefer to have less distance off the tee (40 yds is extreme on my opinion) and give myself a better chance of being in A1 position for my longer 2nd shot than ending up in heavy rough or OB 2/3 times a round....as I’ve said more than once it’s a complex debate....either can be argued as better...0 -
redzerdrog wrote: »I would say you are most likely over exaggerating how well you hit it from 120
I’m absolutely not....don’t tell me my own game thanks very much....I know my strengths and weaknesses....I’m more comfortable from that range than 80 yds...it’s not something to be proud of so why would I exaggerate? Anonymous person on boards claims to be better at one distance than another, big deal....didn’t say I stick it inside 10ft every time did I so where’s the exaggeration?0 -
Hmmm k....whatever....just challenging your opinion, thought that’s what we were doing in this thread....
You’re assuming the gain in 40yrds off the tee comes at no cost to accuracy.....personally I’d prefer to have less distance off the tee (40 yds is extreme on my opinion) and give myself a better chance of being in A1 position for my longer 2nd shot than ending up in heavy rough or OB 2/3 times a round....as I’ve said more than once it’s a complex debate....either can be argued as better...
You are not challenging my opinion you are challenging fact. Actual quantifiable data collected over millions of shots.
The 40 yards off the tee is a separate argument and I agree more nuanced, this part of the discussion was regarding 80yards compared to 120yards and what you are trying to argue has been proven to be wrong.0 -
redzerdrog wrote: »You are not challenging my opinion you are challenging fact. Actual quantifiable data collected over millions of shots.
The 40 yards off the tee is a separate argument and I agree more nuanced, this part of the discussion was regarding 80yards compared to 120yards and what you are trying to argue has been proven to be wrong.
I don’t think u proved anything at all apart from that the average golfer will get it closer from 120 than 80 ft which I agreed with....all the stats u mention are true in isolation but we’re talking about a distance over accuracy debate here so in my opinion you can’t treat them in isolation. You have to look at the bigger picture and relate it to the overall score...for example for the person who can squeeze an extra 40 yards with a bashed drive, what’s the probability of them hitting in heavy rough or worse and how many shots a round will that cost compared to the probable reduced putts from the shorter putts where the distance benefits u....I’m not saying you are wrong, in fact you’re probably right but you haven’t proven it with your “facts”....in my opinion at least...and a reminder that that’s all anyone have given here, opinions....there’s no right or wrong....0 -
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I don’t think u proved anything at all apart from that the average golfer will get it closer from 120 than 80 ft which I agreed with....all the stats u mention are true in isolation but we’re talking about a distance over accuracy debate here so in my opinion you can’t treat them in isolation. You have to look at the bigger picture and relate it to the overall score...for example for the person who can squeeze an extra 40 yards with a bashed drive, what’s the probability of them hitting in heavy rough or worse and how many shots a round will that cost compared to the probable reduced putts from the shorter putts where the distance benefits u....I’m not saying you are wrong, in fact you’re probably right but you haven’t proven it with your “facts”....in my opinion at least...and a reminder that that’s all anyone have given here, opinions....there’s no right or wrong....
Sorry have you got that wrong way around ? (most will get it closer from 80 yards ?) v 120 yards ?
Some people can have speed without it being bashed. And we are talking in general - that you need reasonable speed to get to a low handicaps.
We are only talking about amateur golfers here - but you will find it hard to find low player (say 5 or under) - who can not get the driver well past 250 yards - and in reality most can get it above 275 +
You seem to think all these guys are in the rough and if they are more - so what - There is a first cut - trees , there are very few courses that it is a lost ball and if it is - there will be a different strategy - you don't leave your brain at home - you hit a 230 yard rescue or whatever.
I play with lads who get it well past 270 and will hit most fairways - and certainly as many or more versus the higher handicap lads.
The closer you are to the hole - the closer the ball gets - all the stats show that.
You are saying that you can not hit a club from 80 yards. That is not really relevant to the overall concept.0
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