Club head speed

monkeybutter

ShivasIrons wrote: »

There's multiple ways of increasing distance


Yes, increasing club head speed is one. Adding strength is another, more strength equals more power. Improving the sequence of the swing, power gets delivered more efficiently leading to more distance.

1. Adding club head speed
2. adding strength


i said all that matters is swing speed


all that improving the sequence does is improve swing speed or it makes zero difference

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You're not correct. Power is strength and speed combined, increase either and power increases, more power is more distance. <br />
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Who do you think can have more speed/power, the stronger golfer or the weaker golfer?

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then you try to combined the two together


strength can be a factor in producing the speed, obviously



in golf speed is all that matters

power is speed

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

How does the LPGA show that more power doesn't deliver more speed? They'd be the perfect group to add power to.

Because they are not as powerful as the majority of men yet they still hit the ball further than them.

ShivasIrons

monkeybutter wrote: »

1. Adding club head speed
2. adding strength


i said all that matters is swing speed


all that improving the sequence does is improve swing speed or it makes zero difference





<br />
<br />




then you try to combined the two together


strength can be a factor in producing the speed, obviously



in golf speed is all that matters

power is speed

What point are you trying to make? That the end result, speed, only matters and that it doesn't matter how you get it, so long as you get it? And the only way to get more speed is by moving the body faster?

monkeybutter

ShivasIrons wrote: »

What point are you trying to make? That the end result, speed, only matters and that it doesn't matter how you get it, so long as you get it? And the only way to get more speed is by moving the body faster?

that it ok for you to be wrong from time to time

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

You are completely misinterpreting this, what this means is that if you take any golfer and increase their distance they will shoot lower scores, not that the longest drivers are the best golfers in the world.



Also Rory would get better if he hit the ball further, but when you're dealing with the best players in the world any improvement they make only gives marginal gains.


For the shorter hitter this is not the case at all, take someone who hits it 180 and get them hitting it 195, 200, or more this will make a big difference to their scores.

You keep saying that strength = distance, it doesn't, ball speed = distance and the thing that influences that (assuming equivalent strike) is clubhead speed, not the strength of the player.


A JCB is a lot stronger than a Ferrari, but I know which one Im racing in.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

What point are you trying to make? That the end result, speed, only matters and that it doesn't matter how you get it, so long as you get it? And the only way to get more speed is by moving the body faster?

The only way to get more speed is by moving the clubhead faster.

redzerdrog

GreeBo wrote: »

Because they are not as powerful as the majority of men yet they still hit the ball further than them.

Apart from fact that they don't. The average driving distance on the lpga tour is 254 yards this is despite them being highly highly skilled golfers.

LPGA tour players has a skill level far far far above that of a hcap golfer. Yet someone unskilled like me can average the same distance off the tee because I am more powerful

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

Because they are not as powerful as the majority of men yet they still hit the ball further than them.

All that shows is that club delivery matters in distance, which nobody is denying. How does this show that power doesn't matter?



What happens if you add power and strength to the LPGA players? Are you saying they won't hit it further? And if not, why not? The answer is, they will hit it further.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

The only way to get more speed is by moving the clubhead faster.

How is that achieved?

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

You keep saying that strength = distance, it doesn't, ball speed = distance and the thing that influences that (assuming equivalent strike) is clubhead speed, not the strength of the player.


A JCB is a lot stronger than a Ferrari, but I know which one Im racing in.

I keep on saying that strength is a component of swing speed, so let's use your example to show the connection, ball speed comes from club head speed properly applied, club head speed comes from the power of the player, strength is a component of power.



Explain how strength doesn't have an influence on distance?

ShivasIrons

monkeybutter wrote: »

that it ok for you to be wrong from time to time

I have no problem being wrong, but at no stage have you shown how I'm wrong. Strength is a component of swing speed. Explain with references that this is not true.

redzerdrog

https://www.floridaphysio.com/2020/03/31/increasing-club-head-speed/

https://www.mytpi.com/articles/fitness/the_best_exercises_to_increase_clubhead_speed

https://www.mytpi.com/articles/swing/club_head_speed_by_age_group_what_percentile_are_you_in

monkeybutter

ShivasIrons wrote: »

I have no problem being wrong, but at no stage have you shown how I'm wrong. Strength is a component of swing speed. Explain with references that this is not true.

i just did, you just don't seem to be able to comprehend it

ShivasIrons

monkeybutter wrote: »

i just did, you just don't seem to be able to comprehend it

Explain it to me again, so I can comprehend it again.


All you need to do is show that strength is not a component of swing speed and give a reference to research or an article that shows this.

GreeBo

redzerdrog wrote: »

Apart from fact that they don't. The average driving distance on the lpga tour is 254 yards this is despite them being highly highly skilled golfers.

LPGA tour players has a skill level far far far above that of a hcap golfer. Yet someone unskilled like me can average the same distance off the tee because I am more powerful

and whats the average driving distance of male golfers?
220 yards or so, who do you reckon is stronger?

monkeybutter

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Explain it to me again, so I can comprehend it again.


All you need to do is show that strength is not a component of swing speed and give a reference to research or an article that shows this.

quote

---

Power is strength and speed combined, increase either and power increases, more power is more distance

- Quote

---

Strength + Speed = Power



no



speed = power in golf



(strength + flexibility + etc) = Speed

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

How is that achieved?

By swinging it faster, you dont have to get stronger to swing it faster, equally getting stronger wont necessarily make you swing faster.

you keep telling us that it will, that simply getting stronger will make you hit it further, what we keep telling you is that it only will if that strength results in swinging faster, which it often does not, its not the simple guarantee that you keep saying it is.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Explain it to me again, so I can comprehend it again.


All you need to do is show that strength is not a component of swing speed and give a reference to research or an article that shows this.

You said earlier

The power comes from the golfer and it comes from strength and speed, that is the speed the body moves. The golfer applies the power to the club.

But this is far too simplistic, no part of a golfers body moves at 130mph for example, the speed in the swing comes from compound levers and conservation of angular momentum.

You dont need to be very strong to use a whip for example, you need to be quick.
You dont need to very strong to swing a golf club.

Look at the driving distances on the Senior tour....or those guys stronger than we are?
Are they stronger than a bunch of guys on the PGA tour?

Or do they just swing the club faster?

redzerdrog

GreeBo wrote: »

and whats the average driving distance of male golfers?
220 yards or so, who do you reckon is stronger?

You are talking absolute nonsense now and purposely missing key parts of the discussion to make stupid nonsensical points.

You are trying to make your point by comparing highly skilled elite lpga golfers to hcap Male golfers.

The average driving distance for Male amateur golfer 219 yet for females of the same skill level is 148. Why?

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

By swinging it faster, you dont have to get stronger to swing it faster, equally getting stronger wont necessarily make you swing faster.

you keep telling us that it will, that simply getting stronger will make you hit it further, what we keep telling you is that it only will if that strength results in swinging faster, which it often does not, its not the simple guarantee that you keep saying it is.

Why will getting stronger not make you swing faster?


redzerdrog has three articles referenced in his post above, all three talk about strength, are these three articles wrong?

ShivasIrons

monkeybutter wrote: »

quote

---

Power is strength and speed combined, increase either and power increases, more power is more distance

- Quote

---

Strength + Speed = Power



no



speed = power in golf



(strength + flexibility + etc) = Speed

Can you show referenced articles or research as well?

monkeybutter

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Can you show referenced articles or research as well?

Can 2 people with the same club head speed go different distance.

Same launch conditions

I repeat it's ok to be wrong sometimes

ShivasIrons

monkeybutter wrote: »

Can 2 people with the same club head speed go different distance.

Same launch conditions

I repeat it's ok to be wrong sometimes

That question has no bearing on whether strength is a component of swing speed.



But to answer your question, I'd need to know what you mean by same launch conditions? Is that launch angle and spin? Are you including ball speed in launch conditions? And the same attack angle, club path and face angle? If they are all the same the ball would go the same distance

redzerdrog

monkeybutter wrote: »

I repeat it's ok to be wrong sometimes

Adding this line makes you come across as a dickhead

Even more so when you have offered absolutely nothing to prove him wrong

fungie

This thread is a mess.

Holding all other variables the same, increasing club head speed will result in hitting the ball further; it can't be denied.

However, in reality, it might not be always possible to increase club head speed but keeping everything else the same.

It doesn't really matter how the club head speed got increased, be it from increased strength, technique, flexibility, praying.... etc.

GreeBo

[HTML][/HTML]

redzerdrog wrote: »

You are talking absolute nonsense now and purposely missing key parts of the discussion to make stupid nonsensical points.

You are trying to make your point by comparing highly skilled elite lpga golfers to hcap Male golfers.

The average driving distance for Male amateur golfer 219 yet for females of the same skill level is 148. Why?

I'm making the point that strength isn't the be all and end all of distance, given everything else being equal, swing speed is.

Swing speed uses strength to a point, but just being stronger won't make you swing the club faster and so won't make the ball go further.

The key parts of the discussion I am referring to is the idea that stronger=further.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Why will getting stronger not make you swing faster?


redzerdrog has three articles referenced in his post above, all three talk about strength, are these three articles wrong?

It won't automatically make you swing faster, why would it?

monkeybutter

ShivasIrons wrote: »

That question has no bearing on whether strength is a component of swing speed.



But to answer your question, I'd need to know what you mean by same launch conditions? Is that launch angle and spin? Are you including ball speed in launch conditions? And the same attack angle, club path and face angle? If they are all the same the ball would go the same distance

Launch conditions

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

That question has no bearing on whether strength is a component of swing speed.



But to answer your question, I'd need to know what you mean by same launch conditions? Is that launch angle and spin? Are you including ball speed in launch conditions? And the same attack angle, club path and face angle? If they are all the same the ball would go the same distance

Ok, so given that, does it matter if one of those people is demonstrably stronger than the other?

Who is stronger between, wolffe, bubba and DJ?

monkeybutter

redzerdrog wrote: »

Adding this line makes you come across as a dickhead

Even more so when you have offered absolutely nothing to prove him wrong

I just explained it

There's no denying it

He is just being deliberately obtuse

redzerdrog

GreeBo wrote: »

[HTML][/HTML]
I'm making the point that strength isn't the be all and end all of distance, given everything else being equal, swing speed is.

Swing speed uses strength to a point, but just being stronger won't make you swing the club faster and so won't make the ball go further.

The key parts of the discussion I am referring to is the idea that stronger=further.

Ok so why then do Male hcap golfers average approx 70 yards more than their female counterparts of the same skill level?

redzerdrog

monkeybutter wrote: »

I just explained it

There's no denying it

He is just being deliberately obtuse

No you didn't

tyivpc5qjx0f2b

fungie wrote: »

This thread is a mess.

Holding all other variables the same, increasing club head speed will result in hitting the ball further; it can't be denied.

However, in reality, it might not be always possible to increase club head speed but keeping everything else the same.

It doesn't really matter how the club head speed got increased, be it from increased strength, technique, flexibility, praying.... etc.

Complete mess, that said, I don't think all posters are contributing to the mess equally.

I've tried to increase my clubhead by all measures you've suggested except your final suggestion.

Do you have a means of quantitativing it's contribution

ClutchIt

I started this thread and it is indeed a mess

GreeBo

Kayson Gigantic Ferry wrote: »

Complete mess, that said, I don't think all posters are contributing to the mess equally.

I've tried to increase my clubhead by all measures you've suggested except your final suggestion.

Do you have a means of quantitativing it's contribution

Did any of them work?

You really want to increase your explosiveness, just adding raw strength isn't going to automatically make you swing faster.

But before any of that, your swing sequence needs to be correct or adding speed isnt going to help, it will probably make things worse!
If your swing contains compensations for swing/sequence flaws then swinging faster gives you less time to correct them and will alter the rhythm required.

tyivpc5qjx0f2b

ClutchIt wrote: »

I started this thread and it is indeed a mess

Everyone wants to increase their clubhead speed so as a topic it’s quite interesting but clearly it’s adding little to no value in this format

The best structure for something like this would be an AMA with a TPI qualified trainer who could answer everyone’s questions leaving a catalogue of advice for people to look back and view.

If that could be arranged it would be a very good thread.

redzerdrog

redzerdrog wrote: »

Ok so why then do Male hcap golfers average approx 70 yards more than their female counterparts of the same skill level?

Any chance you can answer this greebo?

RoadRunner

Worth research the term "explosive strength" or "explosive power" which both sides of this argument may be missing. Refers to acceleration or rate of force development, or "the neuromuscular system's ability to generate high action velocities".

Explosive power is a little different to raw strength. Here's a video of RS getting the world strongest man to hit balls (it doesn't go so well, skip to apprx 4:40ish to see first shots)

Long hitting in Golf requires good explosive power and good technique. The other ingredients raw strength, speed etc make up explosive power. There's many other variables too I think not discussed here. Flexibility, Limb length etc.



Tony's one of the strongest, most powerful guys on tour. Look at the length of his arms. He swings well within himself. Every natural advantage he has brings crushing ball speed to his game. There's vids of him swinging hard and he can literally bring an extra 20+mph ball speed at any instant. However he swings a shorter swing, hits everything well inside his means. Getting away from swing speed only, note that tony has well documented struggles closing on the last days and missed more then his fair share of short puts.

Part of the great thing about our sport is the number of different variables that combine. Many of these variables play against each other in different ways. My observation is that the most flexible/long armed golfers out there with the best swing technique are conversely noticeably weaker on the greens due to these physical traits being disadvantages where precision and a solid core/base is valued more for precision.

Each of these points above focuses on ball speed only and also completely skips over the mental side of the game which is more important again. The best thing about our game is the number of ways to get it done!

GreeBo

redzerdrog wrote: »

Any chance you can answer this greebo?

I thought it was obvious, but its because the men swing the clubhead faster then the ladies.

Since we are going this way, any chance you can answer the question around you saying that you would drop at least 4 shots by hitting it 26 yards further?

GreeBo

RoadRunner wrote: »

Worth research the term "explosive strength" or "explosive power" which both sides of this argument may be missing.

Ahem!

GreeBo wrote: »

You really want to increase your explosiveness, just adding raw strength isn't going to automatically make you swing faster.

redzerdrog

GreeBo wrote: »

I thought it was obvious, but its because the men swing the clubhead faster then the ladies.

Since we are going this way, any chance you can answer the question around you saying that you would drop at least 4 shots by hitting it 26 yards further?

And why do men swing it faster than women of the same skill level?

RoadRunner

GreeBo wrote: »

Ahem!

Respectfully though you followed up with "just adding raw strength isn't going to automatically make you swing faster". Raw strength as a variable w/ all other variables being equal, then adding extra will give the ability to swing faster. Even if only slightly, even if not really noticeable. Please read the instructions on the label as ball striking, ultimate distance or scoring may not be improved in anyway. You're dead right in that this is not always the proven way to get better at the game.

DuckSlice

redzerdrog wrote: »

And why do men swing it faster than women of the same skill level?

If they are swinging faster then they are not of the same skill level. How fast you swing it is also part of the overall picture.

To compare a man and a woman of the same skill level you would need them both to have the same swing speeds, IMO.

GreeBo

RoadRunner wrote: »

Respectfully though you followed up with "just adding raw strength isn't going to automatically make you swing faster".

Do you disagree though?
I'm specifically separating explosive strength from raw strength btw.

Adding explosive power/speed will enable you to swing faster (you might not swing faster due to other issues though!)

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

I thought it was obvious, but its because the men swing the clubhead faster then the ladies.

Since we are going this way, any chance you can answer the question around you saying that you would drop at least 4 shots by hitting it 26 yards further?

26 yards is basically 2 clubs.

Anyone hitting 2 clubs less all day has a massive advantage. And stats at any handicap will show . More gir and closer to the hole.

Then they are also hitting nearly a club or two less into a par 3 too.

tyivpc5qjx0f2b

GreeBo wrote: »

Do you disagree though?
I'm specifically separating explosive strength from raw strength btw.

Adding explosive power/speed will enable you to swing faster (you might not swing faster due to other issues though!)

Can you actually explain the difference here because that terminology is by no means technically correct but rather colloquial and pretty ambiguous.

It would make your points much easier to decipher.

GreeBo

Kayson Gigantic Ferry wrote: »

Can you actually explain the difference here because that terminology is by no means technically correct but rather colloquial and pretty ambiguous.

It would make your points much easier to decipher.

Power/Strength is the ability to exert maximum force, explosive strength/power is ability to exert maximum force over minimal time.

redzerdrog

etxp wrote: »

If they are swinging faster then they are not of the same skill level. How fast you swing it is also part of the overall picture.

To compare a man and a woman of the same skill level you would need them both to have the same swing speeds, IMO.

That's a different point altogether. There is no point comparing highly skilled lpga tour members or senior tour member to your avarage hcap golfer.

As a general comparison hcap Male golfers and hcap female golfers have the same skill level regarding delivery and strike ect. Yet one group averages 70 yards further than the other, why is that?

I do agree that the ability to strike to ball with a faster swing speed is a skill in itself and not being argued here.

tyivpc5qjx0f2b

GreeBo wrote: »

Power/Strength is the ability to exert maximum force, explosive strength/power is ability to exert maximum force over minimal time.

Again there is an incredible amount of ambiguity tied up in what you're saying.

Firstly the line you grabbed which I highlighted relates to "Explosive Strength", that is universally accepted definition of that.

You have gone ahead and tried to bundle "Explosive Power" with that which isn't how explosive power is defined because there is no definition of that, it's an ambiguous term.

Power inherently includes time so defining this as "Power/Strength" vs "Explosive Power/Strength" is incorrect and is closer to "Strength" vs "Explosve Strength" or Strength vs Power.

Again your points are generally poorly defined. When getting into the weeds on a topic like this, you need to be clearer in what you're referring to because it reads as pretty nonsensical.

redzerdrog

GreeBo wrote: »

You keep telling me that more power will deliver more speed, the LPGA shows that this is not always the case.

Which is it greebo I thought power doesn't give more speed?