Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01

Eoinbmw · 21-01-2021 10:59AM

average_runner wrote: »

We got an email yesterday from the principals of our kids schools saying they were happy to open for the kids with special needs and the teachers were very happy to go back and disappointed they couldn't. My friend is also a principal of a school and said the same thing. Now these are primary schools.

So can the union stop teachers from going in, even though the teachers are happy to return and feel the environment is safe in their schools?

Surely this should be up to the teachers and the schools themselves?

We had a similar letter from our sons special needs school in Limerick.
There is an appetite from some to return to school.

average_runner · 21-01-2021 10:59AM

History Queen wrote: »

The primary teachers union and forsa DID NOT direct their members not to attend. They asked the Dept for more time to find a workable solution. The Dept decided not to open the schools.

But the union basically said it wasn't safe to go back, while some schools disagree with them

the kelt · 21-01-2021 11:00AM

Stateofyou wrote: »

Even SN's parents are calling out the Farquaads. I saw this comment on an Independent article this morning, loads of likes on it. (Article about dept being sued)

"..As a special needs parent myself I'm not prepared to put my kids at risk and I don't expect others to put themselves at risk either. So yourself and Anne can jog on. I'm disgusted that this is being threatened on people who are terrified to go into work. How dare any parent force their kids on anyone. That's disgusting."

Looking at social media this morning here and there, this situation is now a hot MESS. :mad:

This is the thing, there seems to be no voice whatsoever for those who actually dont want to send their kids back to school yet and no provision was made for them.

The narrative being spouted is that ALL parents with kids who have special needs want their kids back in school when thats not the case.

Stateofyou · 21-01-2021 11:11AM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Another bit of gold from Waterford whisperers. What's sad is that an outright satirical media outlet is more on point than our national media outlet rte

https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2021/01/20/whos-to-blame-evil-teachers-snas-or-our-flawless-government/

Stunningly accurate piece of satire. :eek:

KrustyUCC · 21-01-2021 11:12AM

the kelt wrote: »

This is the thing, there seems to be no voice whatsoever for those who actually dont want to send their kids back to school yet and no provision was made for them.

The narrative being spouted is that ALL parents with kids who have special needs want their kids back in school when thats not the case.

Nope but ALL parents witn kids who have special needs have a choice if schools are open

They currently have no choice

the kelt · 21-01-2021 11:15AM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Nope but ALL parents witn kids who have special needs have a choice if schools are open

They currently have no choice

What choice to they have if the teachers are in the schools and not doing online any more and they want online because they dont want to send their kids back in the middle of the worst stage of the pandemic?

What about the teacher in mainstream who assists mainstream classes for those who require help along with working with special needs kids?

If the teacher is in school and the other students arent, they miss out.

khalessi · 21-01-2021 11:26AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Exact words, verbatim from the letter

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/ba4aa0-letters-from-the-cmo-to-the-minister-for-health/

The full letter is an interesting read

Yes indeed it is, I have read it a few times and quoted it a few times.

KrustyUCC · 21-01-2021 11:32AM

the kelt wrote: »

What choice to they have if the teachers are in the schools and not doing online any more and they want online because they dont want to send their kids back in the middle of the worst stage of the pandemic?

What about the teacher in mainstream who assists mainstream classes for those who require help along with working with special needs kids?

If the teacher is in school and the other students arent, they miss out.

Online doesn't work for many students but I'm sure the classwork could be given to students at home

In terms of mainstream classes I know one contingency was for the other children to get the classes of other 3rd, 4th etc teachers in the school

Ideal? No it's not
Has its own problems? Yes it does
Workable for a few weeks? Id say yes others would say no

No solution doesn't throw up other problems i accept that

There's no size fits all

However my sister has a group wit her and the other parents

You had her and 10 other parents who would have been sending children to school today

The principal wanted them back

However no school thanks to a combination of the government and unions

All of that group of parents are seeing regression on their kids and its only going to get worse as time goes on

BonsaiKitten · 21-01-2021 11:38AM

the kelt wrote: »

Thanks, just thinking outside the box, would it be possible I wonder outside of mainstream?

It’s another point you make though under herr normas plan a lot of other kids in mainstream were going to miss out because all the ficus would only be on those in the school but in reality she couldn’t care less.

Yeah and I do applaud you for thinking outside the box. Or at least being willing to - Norma and co needed to show a bit of that over the past year!

Unfortunately what we're seeing here is years of underfunding coming back to bite us. Such a damn shame for these kids.

the kelt · 21-01-2021 11:40AM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Online doesn't work for many students but I'm sure the classwork could be given to students at home

In terms of mainstream classes I know one contingency was for the other children to get the classes of other 3rd, 4th etc teachers in the school

Ideal? No it's not
Has its own problems? Yes it does
Workable for a few weeks? Id say yes others would say no

No solution doesn't throw up other problems i accept that

There's no size fits all

However my sister has a group wit her and the other parents

You had her and 10 other parents who would have been sending children to school today

The principal wanted them back

However no school thanks to a combination of the government and unions

All of that group of parents are seeing regression on their kids and its only going to get worse as time goes on

This is the problem though, there is one size that fits all which is having all kids back in school.

Basically we are in this mess because the government went against NPHET advice yet we now have a case where people are actively wanting government to do the same again!!!

The letter from NPHET is interesting. I mean what if brining people back now meant that as a result all schools going back will be even further delayed because numbers dont drop quick enough.

KrustyUCC · 21-01-2021 11:48AM

You'll be waiting a hell of a long time for all schools to.go back

So instead of road testing schools being back with about 80,000 you want to wait for a million being back?

Ronan Glynn the other night stated that NPHET’s advice for people to stay at home was partly intended to allow limited sections of society to continue

Glynn clarified that NPHET wrote to the minister earlier this month and advised that, rather than expressing concerns about schools themselves, officials worried about the spread of Covid-19 due to one million people travelling to and from schools daily.

He further explained that part of NPHET’s advice was to give special consideration should to keeping schools open for vulnerable children and those with special needs.

Stateofyou · 21-01-2021 11:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Exact words, verbatim from the letter

https://www.gov.ie/en/collection/ba4aa0-letters-from-the-cmo-to-the-minister-for-health/

The full letter is an interesting read

A few Key words, no?: September to December 2020

Were we not then deemed "the worst covid stats in the world" after Dec 2020? And a more virulent strain found to becoming the dominant one...and an announcement that close contacts would no longer be tested - you would think this changes things further.

the kelt · 21-01-2021 11:51AM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

You'll be waiting a hell of a long time for all schools to.go back

So instead of road testing schools being back with about 80,000 you want to wait for a million being back?

Ronan Glynn the other night stated that NPHET’s advice for people to stay at home was partly intended to allow limited sections of society to continue

Glynn clarified that NPHET wrote to the minister earlier this month and advised that, rather than expressing concerns about schools themselves, officials worried about the spread of Covid-19 due to one million people travelling to and from schools daily.

He further explained that part of NPHET’s advice was to give special consideration should to keeping schools open for vulnerable children and those with special needs.

I never said i wanted either, i said what if one lead to a delay in the other, is that fair?

And actually NPHET advice never said there should be consideration to keeping schools open for vulnerable children.

What was said was Concluding his letter, he also noted that specific measures should be taken “to ensure that more vulnerable children can best be supported” in the coming weeks, but he did not specify what form of support should be provided.

The journal done a fact check which makes for interesting reading. For example concerns about the new strain affecting people under 20 more amongst other things

Thats why i asked earlier was it possible for example to have teachers visit those most in need in their houses for even a couple of hours per week whilst doing the other work etc online. Those who want online get online and those who want support face to face get some face to face support. Im not a teacher so dont know if its possible but long enough working to recognise and see how wasters like Norma bully their way to what they want to try and over their own failings. Worked with many like her

wirelessdude01 · 21-01-2021 11:55AM

the kelt wrote: »

Quick question for teachers etc on here, would it have been possible for kids with a real need for one to one assistance to receive even an hour or two a day in the home even a few days a week with the remainder done online. For example my neighbour did not want to send their kid who has special needs back to school because well ye know “once in a lifetime virus” doing the rounds and made a point that without the other students the school for his daughter was just another building. He was more than happy with online but that was being taken away by Norma today if she had her way because teachers had to go back and that was that, does that child and the concerns of her parents count or just those who want their kids in school and that’s that.

Just thinking outside the box, something Norma and her ilk seem incapable of.

Main issue is what happens to all the others when you aren't available online via all the different platforms while travelling to/from the house and also the time spent with the student?

Another issue is insurance.

Solution is to have a bank of teachers who are employed to provide this kind of service but Norma wouldn't allow something like this as she didn't suggest it. It's all about control with Norma. She has to try and micro manage everything.

Stateofyou · 21-01-2021 11:58AM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

Nope but ALL parents witn kids who have special needs have a choice if schools are open

They currently have no choice

NOONE has ever had any choice. High risk students and families never had an option to avail of remote learning. People who were not comfortable with the risk at times of high transmission in their local areas never had any choice to remote learn. Children/classes who needed to quarantine at home or were ill didn't have the choice of remote learning - now maybe there was some work sent/accommodation happening here and there for that category but my point is - the DES/Minister Foley have never produced an equitable, national remote learning plan to address these issues and promote the continuity of learning. It's not about the children's education. It's about leaders not wanting to work hard and or complete and utter ineptitude. Unless someone else has some other explanation.

wirelessdude01 · 21-01-2021 12:03PM

average_runner wrote: »

We got an email yesterday from the principals of our kids schools saying they were happy to open for the kids with special needs and the teachers were very happy to go back and disappointed they couldn't. My friend is also a principal of a school and said the same thing. Now these are primary schools.

So can the union stop teachers from going in, even though the teachers are happy to return and feel the environment is safe in their schools?

Surely this should be up to the teachers and the schools themselves?

Neither INTO or Forsa stopped anyone from going in. They both raised issues and asked the government to reconsider. Go read their joint statement if you don't believe me. Neither union can mandate their members to not go in without having received that mandate via a ballot.

The government were the ones who announced that they had abandoned their plan to partially reopen.

the kelt · 21-01-2021 12:04PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Main issue is what happens to all the others when you aren't available online via all the different platforms while travelling to/from the house and also the time spent with the student?

Another issue is insurance.

Solution is to have a bank of teachers who are employed to provide this kind of service but Norma wouldn't allow something like this as she didn't suggest it. It's all about control with Norma. She has to try and micro manage everything.

Fair enough.

Are there not teachers who would work solely with certain students only in special schools or say 2 or 3 students only?

I understand others do mainstream work aswell which wouldnt work.

Insurance yeah would be an issue but surely some workaround. maybe not.

It seems to me theres no thought from the likes of Norma to actual education, her only remit is get kids through the school gates and thats it.

Stateofyou · 21-01-2021 12:11PM

the kelt wrote: »

Fair enough.

Are there not teachers who would work solely with certain students only in special schools or say 2 or 3?

I understand others do mainstream work aswell which wouldnt work.

Insurance yeah would be an issue but surely some workaround. maybe not.

It seems to me theres no thought from the likes of Norma to actual education, her only remit is get kids through the school gates and thats it.

This whole mess points to an inappropriate and mistaken appointment of Norma Foley to such a challenging and important role. (Not forgetting the impact of decades of underfunding and neglect in the sector by consecutive governments) I'd love for the Taoiseach to be asked point blank what the justification was for the appointment and what qualifications she holds that led to an expectation of talent to such a position.

SAMTALK · 21-01-2021 12:34PM

This whole mess just amplifies the failings of the Dept of Education for years

it's not good enough for Norma foley to say we wanted schools open but Unions refused !

Has the Dept of Education done anything since last March to make things easier for children with additional needs , have they done anything in the last 10 years to make things easier ?

Mrsmum · 21-01-2021 12:36PM

Stateofyou wrote: »

This whole mess points to an inappropriate and mistaken appointment of Norma Foley to such a challenging and important role. (Not forgetting the impact of decades of underfunding and neglect in the sector by consecutive governments) I'd love for the Taoiseach to be asked point blank what the justification was for the appointment and what qualifications she holds that led to an expectation of talent to such a position.

Well I don't know, I mean she's a teacher and I have yet to meet one that wasn't smart, articulate, organised, hard working. In her role she had the background knowledge you would have thought would be an asset. Before this mess she probably came across as very personable. She's also from a political family so not a rookie in terms of knowing the ropes and I'd say she was seen as a steady person, a safe pair of hands that wouldn't be falling off swings and so forth. I'd say he chose her for such reasons.

21-01-2021 12:39PM

Stateofyou wrote: »

A few Key words, no?: September to December 2020

Were we not then deemed "the worst covid stats in the world" after Dec 2020? And a more virulent strain found to becoming the dominant one...and an announcement that close contacts would no longer be tested - you would think this changes things further.

Dealt with in detail in the letter where the CMO clearly outlined that schools should not open in full

Stateofyou · 21-01-2021 01:09PM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Well I don't know, I mean she's a teacher and I have yet to meet one that wasn't smart, articulate, organised, hard working. In her role she had the background knowledge you would have thought would be an asset. Before this mess she probably came across as very personable. She's also from a political family so not a rookie in terms of knowing the ropes and I'd say she was seen as a steady person, a safe pair of hands that wouldn't be falling off swings and so forth. I'd say he chose her for such reasons.

I have backed teachers here since the start of the pandemic and I feel for good reason. That said not all teachers are as you described, though I think the overwhelming majority are. I had some pretty terrible teachers myself when I was younger. I will say that organised and hard-working are not two attributes Norma Foley readily displays. Political family background doesn't automatically equal knowledge or talent, either.

jrosen · 21-01-2021 01:40PM

I dont know, was Norma not just handed a poisoned chalice in some regards? It would take huge commitment and time to do anything with the dept of education and maybe she thought with her inside knowledge she would be able to make changes. I also wonder how much autonomy she actually has.
That being said I remember having high hopes for previous ministers given their profession and being let down so who knows.

jrosen · 21-01-2021 01:42PM

Just to ask for any secondary teachers? Are you now regularly covering new material or just revision? I have a JC here and i had a good look this morning over his work and it seems and he also says they are not covering much new material and its mostly revision.

BonsaiKitten · 21-01-2021 01:44PM

jrosen wrote: »

I dont know, was Norma not just handed a poisoned chalice in some regards? It would take huge commitment and time to do anything with the dept of education and maybe she thought with her inside knowledge she would be able to make changes. I also wonder how much autonomy she actually has.
That being said I remember having high hopes for previous ministers given their profession and being let down so who knows.

Yeah, personally I feel that she was handed it to take the fall. New TD, fairly expendable. I have more tolerance for her than I do Madigan, though that isn't saying much.

Mrsmum · 21-01-2021 01:45PM

jrosen wrote: »

Just to ask for any secondary teachers? Are you now regularly covering new material or just revision? I have a JC here and i had a good look this morning over his work and it seems and he also says they are not covering much new material and its mostly revision.

JC student here too and definately covering new stuff in every subject as far as I can see.

Smacruairi · 21-01-2021 01:58PM

jrosen wrote: »

Just to ask for any secondary teachers? Are you now regularly covering new material or just revision? I have a JC here and i had a good look this morning over his work and it seems and he also says they are not covering much new material and its mostly revision.

1. You'd normally be heading into the mocks now so a good element of revision, particularly harder 2nd year stuff too.

2. Depending on the subject, might be waiting on an announcement that we are closing for longer before doing new material. Eg if its English, I'd rather be revising and boxing off a drama and novel already done than trying to start a new novel remotely which can be soul destroyingly boring to read online with kids.

blanch152 · 21-01-2021 02:15PM

KrustyUCC wrote: »

You'll be waiting a hell of a long time for all schools to.go back

So instead of road testing schools being back with about 80,000 you want to wait for a million being back?

Ronan Glynn the other night stated that NPHET’s advice for people to stay at home was partly intended to allow limited sections of society to continue

Glynn clarified that NPHET wrote to the minister earlier this month and advised that, rather than expressing concerns about schools themselves, officials worried about the spread of Covid-19 due to one million people travelling to and from schools daily.

He further explained that part of NPHET’s advice was to give special consideration should to keeping schools open for vulnerable children and those with special needs.

This is a fair analysis of the public health situation.

It has been ignored by the teacher unions to the detriment of the most vulnerable children in our schools.

Smacruairi · 21-01-2021 02:18PM

blanch152 wrote: »

This is a fair analysis of the public health situation.

It has been ignored by the teacher unions to the detriment of the most vulnerable children in our schools.

Bold unions. The dept closed the schools not the unions. They can open if they want. Then again im sure they don't want to place Madigan or Foley in front of a microphone again for fear of another raft of "misspeaks", especially with Leo now trending again.

Most vulnerable in society have been ignored by Madigan for 10 months, and she doesn't even think they're "normal" so I wouldn't be throwing that around too much.

markodaly · 21-01-2021 02:20PM

Has anyone clarified as to why INTO schools are open in the North and not in the south.
What exactly are they doing they we are not?

I heard some rep from the INTO on Claire Byrne yesterday. Spoofing like mad, going on about the North having had more people vaccinated, therefore its safe to open schools, even though he was brought up on it straight away that not one teacher in NI has had a vaccine, so he spoofed and spluttered some response about it.

This is all about €€€'s and getting teachers bumped up the list to get vaccinated, and using special needs kids and disabled kids as a means to do it.

Shameless stuff, utterly shameless.

Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

Comments

Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01