Club head speed

ClutchIt · 20-01-2021 4:53pm #1

Hi, I have ordered a simple mini launch monitor today for use with my golf net.

If I wanted to play off a handicap of about 10, what distance should I be hitting the 5 iron?

And then what 5 iron club head speed would be good to achieve this?

Thanks all.

ShivasIrons · 20-01-2021 6:12pm

ClutchIt wrote: »

Hi, I have ordered a simple mini launch monitor today for use with my golf net.

If I wanted to play off a handicap of about 10, what distance should I be hitting the 5 iron?

And then what 5 iron club head speed would be good to achieve this?

Thanks all.

There is a correlation between how far you can hit the ball and how good your scores are. Golfers who swing faster have the ability to become good players.

However, there are many ways to play golf so you can't really say that hitting a 5 iron 160, 170, 180, 190 yards means you will play off a certain handicap.

But, in general, learn to swing as fast as you can first and then learn to control it after.

gypsy79 · 20-01-2021 6:40pm

I know a guy who plays off 10 who only drives the ball 180 yards so you definitely cannot say such a thing

Short game is key!!

FixdePitchmark · 20-01-2021 7:25pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

I know a guy who plays off 10 who only drives the ball 180 yards so you definitely cannot say such a thing

Short game is key!!

In general you are right. But if you hit the ball far and hit lots of greens - you can reduce the impact of a poor short game. I'm in that boat myself. You can get to much / much lower handicap than 10.

The guy you are talking about off 10 will never be off 5 or less.

MarcusP12 · 20-01-2021 7:47pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

In general you are right. But if you hit the ball far and hit lots of greens - you can reduce the impact of a poor short game. I'm in that boat myself. You can get to much / much lower handicap than 10.

The guy you are talking about off 10 will never be off 5 or less.

This was literally me when i was a junior and got down to 10.....used to be decent tee to green and hit a lot in regulation so as you say, didn't need to rely on a decent short game to maintain that standard....if i missed a green, i'd likely bogey but not much worse so you can see how the absence of a short game can translate into a half decent handicap.....fast forward to now and a long absence from regular golf and its come back to haunt me....no feel or touch around the green so regularly duff or thin chips meaning a missed green can just as easily turn into a 6 instead of the 5 it used to be.....a lot of the guys who were of similar standard as me before but with significantly inferior long games started out with pitch and putt.......i was a hurler so swing speed and long game came naturally....

benji79 · 20-01-2021 10:20pm

Doesn’t matter completely about distance. If you only drive it 200 yards but straight every time you’ll score better than someone who hits it 280 but wild a few times per round and possibly OB.

I’d say anyone that can hit a 5 iron somewhere between 150-200 can be a decent single figure handicap provided they have an acceptable chipping & putting game

FixdePitchmark · 20-01-2021 10:40pm

benji79 wrote: »

Doesn’t matter completely about distance. If you only drive it 200 yards but straight every time you’ll score better than someone who hits it 280 but wild a few times per round and possibly OB.

I’d say anyone that can hit a 5 iron somewhere between 150-200 can be a decent single figure handicap provided they have an acceptable chipping & putting game

Massive a range there. Someone hitting a 5 iron 200 yards - is a big difference to someone hitting one 150 yards.

Your right - it doesn't matter completely. But it you are short and straight - you can be a great golfer - but it will be a struggle to get low low.

Lads that get low low - can be long and straight.

Of course short game is important. But distance and greens in regulation , is very underestimated by amateur golfers. Very clichéd about drive for show. Give me a lad on green in regulation ever day over a lad who is a master with a 60 degree lob wedge.

Snotty · 20-01-2021 10:52pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

The guy you are talking about off 10 will never be off 5 or less.

My driver swing speed is 84mph and my world handicap is 6.0, so I'm 5 and less at plenty of courses. If I every practiced my short game I could be a good golfer:)

DuckSlice · 21-01-2021 12:17am

Snotty wrote: »

My driver swing speed is 84mph and my world handicap is 6.0, so I'm 5 and less at plenty of courses. If I every practiced my short game I could be a good golfer:)

How far do you hit your driver? You must be getting up and down a lot on par 4’s?

redzerdrog · 21-01-2021 12:31am

280 in the rough is gona hammer 200 on the fairway the majority of the time unless there is some serious deficits elsewhere I the first persons game

gypsy79 · 21-01-2021 12:33am

redzerdrog wrote: »

280 in the rough is gona hammer 200 on the fairway the majority of the time unless there is some serious deficits elsewhere I the first persons game

No if they are loosing 2 or 3 balls a round which they invariably will

redzerdrog · 21-01-2021 12:37am

gypsy79 wrote: »

No if they are loosing 2 or 3 balls a round which they invariably will

280 in rough still wins the majority of the time

ClutchIt · 21-01-2021 1:24am

Ok guys thanks for the input. I'm playing about 6 years so fairly experienced. I used the handicap of 10 just to give you an idea of what I'm looking for. Well aware of short game importance.
I kind of know I need to be hitting 5i about 170 or 180.
Anyone know what swing speed that would be? Cheers again.

redzerdrog · 21-01-2021 9:07am

ClutchIt wrote: »

Ok guys thanks for the input. I'm playing about 6 years so fairly experienced. I used the handicap of 10 just to give you an idea of what I'm looking for. Well aware of short game importance.
I kind of know I need to be hitting 5i about 170 or 180.
Anyone know what swing speed that would be? Cheers again.

I think you are looking at it slightly wrong as a 5 iron travelling 170 or 180 a lot will depend on the loft of your 5 iron. 5 iron in one mans could be lifted the same as anything from 7 iron to 3 iron in another set.

When looking at club head speed you are better off gauging from your driver club head spead

ClutchIt · 21-01-2021 10:19am

redzerdrog wrote: »

I think you are looking at it slightly wrong as a 5 iron travelling 170 or 180 a lot will depend on the loft of your 5 iron. 5 iron in one mans could be lifted the same as anything from 7 iron to 3 iron in another set.

When looking at club head speed you are better off gauging from your driver club head spead

Ok thank you. That makes some sense, but thats why i'm asking for club head speed, regardless of loft. Unfortunately driver is the one club I can't use on my net. Nowhere to tee the ball up. Cheers though.
I found a chart online, that seems to have the club head speeds to aim for.

fred funk }{ · 21-01-2021 10:56am

Dont get hung up on how far you're hitting a certain club. Just try get as much speed into your swing as you can, the accuracy will follow with practice.

Also, as mentioned, the loft varies a lot from manufacturer to manufacturer. One could be 4 degrees different from another. Its a blight on the game.

redzerdrog · 21-01-2021 11:00am

ClutchIt wrote: »

Ok thank you. That makes some sense, but thats why i'm asking for club head speed, regardless of loft. Unfortunately driver is the one club I can't use on my net. Nowhere to tee the ball up. Cheers though.
I found a chart online, that seems to have the club head speeds to aim for.

If you are trying to compare swing speed you are better off judging off your 7 iron as there will be more data available for comparison purposes. Pga tour average 7 iron swing speed is 90mph

willabur · 21-01-2021 11:04am

gypsy79 wrote: »

No if they are loosing 2 or 3 balls a round which they invariably will

knowing your miss is key, someone who hits 280 and uses course management i.e. they aim at the fat part of the fairway or the look at the shape of the green / pin position from the tee is going to score alot better than someone who just trashes it 280 in a general direction down the fairway

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 11:24am

i think the argument for distance over accuracy for an amature is a tricky one....I'm not convinced that distance at the expense of accuracy is whats best for a mid handicapper like me at least....i think when we look at the pros bombing it and not caring whether they end up in the rough or fairway can maybe skew our judgement a bit on this. At the end of the day pros have ball spotters to find their ball and they have the swing speed to gauge it out of most lies and still expect to hit the green....amatures certainly don't have ball spotters to help locate a wayward drive and most won't have the swing speed to hack it out and hit a green from anything more than semi rough i'd say....so the risk of clocking up a big score is higher with wayward driving i think.....i used to be awful with the driver and eventually went down to a punched 3 iron to keep myself in the hole and i found i scored much better with that approach...have since worked on my driving and invested in modern driver so i do play it when i can but i find that most holes i bomb out of are because of a bad miss with the driver....

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 11:30am

fred funk }{ wrote: »

Dont get hung up on how far you're hitting a certain club. Just try get as much speed into your swing as you can, the accuracy will follow with practice.

Also, as mentioned, the loft varies a lot from manufacturer to manufacturer. One could be 4 degrees different from another. Its a blight on the game.

I'd agree with this....who cares how far you hit a 5 iron. What's important is that you know how far you hit each club consistency so that you can accurately club yourself for an approach shot....not how far it compares to the average of your handicap for example...getting your yardages right across your irons is far more important than how far you hit them relative to someone else....by all means work on that on the range but i wouldnt get hung up on it.....

Ronney · 21-01-2021 12:59pm

Agree with most of the above,
and I know there are dozens of low single figures guys who only Drive it 220 yds.

Firstly I'd look at the top end of your bag.

In Ireland off the mortals tees the longest par 4's (usually index 1 contenders) are in the 450 yds ball park
Short Par 5's starting at 470 yds and long par 3's at the 200 yds mark.

To give yourself the best chance you need enough in the bag to reach those long Par 4's in regulation or else your automatically giving up a shot to the course essentially.

I reckon you need at least 3 clubs in the bag that can break the 200yd mark anything more is a bonus (and i'm not suggesting the Mickelson 2 Driver approach!)

eg Driver - 250 yds
3W 225 yds
3i/Rescue - 200yds

This means on the long par 4 at 450 yds you are hitting Driver + rescue but still have the 3w in reserve if your driver comes up short in the rough or its into the wind etc.

Driver + 3W will have you up to take advantage of short par 5's and like the par 4's for the long par 3's you have a bit in reserve if needed.

your next 7/8 clubs 4i-PW/GW should cover from 100yds to 200yds

Leaving SW/LW/Putter looking after the short end

Depending on course set up/length you might on occasion drop a wedge for a 5W or stronger rescue.

blue note · 21-01-2021 1:22pm

The longer you hit it while under control the better. If you go offline and you're driving it 220 yards instead of 260, your chances of being in trouble are significantly less.

As someone said above, if you want to get to 10, you don't need huge distance to get there. If you want to get down to 5, it would be very difficult if you're short. You'd really need to be average, hitting a driver about 240 yards I reckon. And then on the other extreme, if you're long and in control you can get down fairly low without a great short game. I used to play with a guy like this. I'd be strong enough for distance, but he was 20 yards longer than me from the tee and not remotely wild. I think he played off about 6 though, because his chipping and putting were fairly average. And without being wild, when you're that long you'll still be in trouble occasionally from the tee. A better player might get those shots back from a solid short game, but he didn't.

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 1:24pm

Ronney wrote: »

Agree with most of the above,
and I know there are dozens of low single figures guys who only Drive it 220 yds.

Firstly I'd look at the top end of your bag.

In Ireland off the mortals tees the longest par 4's (usually index 1 contenders) are in the 450 yds ball park
Short Par 5's starting at 470 yds and long par 3's at the 200 yds mark.

To give yourself the best chance you need enough in the bag to reach those long Par 4's in regulation or else your automatically giving up a shot to the course essentially.

I reckon you need at least 3 clubs in the bag that can break the 200yd mark anything more is a bonus (and i'm not suggesting the Mickelson 2 Driver approach!)

eg Driver - 250 yds
3W 225 yds
3i/Rescue - 200yds

This means on the long par 4 at 450 yds you are hitting Driver + rescue but still have the 3w in reserve if your driver comes up short in the rough or its into the wind etc.

Driver + 3W will have you up to take advantage of short par 5's and like the par 4's for the long par 3's you have a bit in reserve if needed.

your next 7/8 clubs 4i-PW/GW should cover from 100yds to 200yds

Leaving SW/LW/Putter looking after the short end

Depending on course set up/length you might on occasion drop a wedge for a 5W or stronger rescue.

Good summary above....gapping in your bag is pretty important which is why knowing your stock yardages is key....tweak your bag to suit especially at the top end of the bag...i changed for wedge line up to get a better more even gapping from pitching wedge distance down to lob wedge...

The one thing i would add to the above though is to also consider course management. If you're struggling with the long game, especially the 200+ 2nd shots, on a par 5 consider playing for position on the second and leaving whatever distance you're comfortable with getting it on and even close with....for me that was usually full sand wedge so often i'd be hitting mid to short irons on second shots....its better than ballooning a wood or long iron where you don't want to go and then trying to scramble for a par...

ClutchIt · 21-01-2021 3:03pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

If you are trying to compare swing speed you are better off judging off your 7 iron as there will be more data available for comparison purposes. Pga tour average 7 iron swing speed is 90mph

Thanks Redzer, thus was the kind of info I was looking for. The chart I found was for LPGA. 7i = 76mph, so this is a more realistic target.

NotCarrotRidge · 21-01-2021 3:45pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

280 in rough still wins the majority of the time

Depends on the course, really. I can think of plenty of places where you're regularly on trouble if not on the fairway.

ShivasIrons · 21-01-2021 4:18pm

benji79 wrote: »

Doesn’t matter completely about distance. If you only drive it 200 yards but straight every time you’ll score better than someone who hits it 280 but wild a few times per round and possibly OB.

I’d say anyone that can hit a 5 iron somewhere between 150-200 can be a decent single figure handicap provided they have an acceptable chipping & putting game

For the golfer who only hits it 200 yards but in the fairway all the time, when they play a 400 yard par 4 they can't reach it in regulation. The golfer who hits it 280 but less accurate only has a wedge into a 400 yard hole.

Over a period of time the golfer who hits it 200 has no chance against a golfer who hits it 280, no chance whats so ever.

Every 25 yards gained leads to a big jump in performance even with a loss of accuracy.

Distance trumps accuracy.

And I know, there's always someone's uncle John who hits it nowhere and plays off 10, 5 , scratch etc, imagine how much better they would be with 25 yards extra, never mind the 80 yards given in this example.

monkeybutter · 21-01-2021 4:35pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

For the golfer who only hits it 200 yards but in the fairway all the time, when they play a 400 yard par 4 they can't reach it in regulation. The golfer who hits it 280 but less accurate only has a wedge into a 400 yard hole.

Over a period of time the golfer who hits it 200 has no chance against a golfer who hits it 280, no chance whats so ever.

Every 25 yards gained leads to a big jump in performance even with a loss of accuracy.

Distance trumps accuracy.

And I know, there's always someone's uncle John who hits it nowhere and plays off 10, 5 , scratch etc, imagine how much better they would be with 25 yards extra, never mind the 80 yards given in this example.

And then they hit it 280 out of bounds or lost in the trees, versus the plodder hitting it 200 in the fairway each hole, who wins then

because that's what they said

if you hit it 80 yards longer you need to be more accurate in general to keep out of trouble, sometimes the fairway might open up, but not typically that much

ShivasIrons · 21-01-2021 4:43pm

monkeybutter wrote: »

And then they hit it 280 out of bounds or lost in the trees, versus the plodder hitting it 200 in the fairway each hole, who wins then

because that's what they said

if you hit it 80 yards longer you need to be more accurate in general to keep out of trouble, sometimes the fairway might open up, but not typically that much

The golfer hitting it 280 will not hit it out of bounds or in trouble each time either,

but let's say they hit in the trees on a 400 yard hole, they knock it 100 yards out of the trees toward the green, they now are in the same position as the 200 yard golfer who can't reach the green in two no matter what.

A gain of 25 yards with a loss of accuracy leads to a big improvement in performance, are you really trying to argue that being 80 yards shorter but more accurate is a good thing? All other things being equal the golfer who hits it 80 yards further will be around 6-7 shots better

GreeBo · 21-01-2021 5:31pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

280 in rough still wins the majority of the time

Depends on what you mean by "In the rough"
If thats a yard or two in then yeah, but if it also covers being in the trees or water then no.

Lots of more modern courses are wide open and distance is king, but on many older courses if you are offline you are dead.

GreeBo · 21-01-2021 5:32pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Distance trumps accuracy.

Only if you are accurate "enough".

The definition of enough differs on each course.

blue note · 21-01-2021 5:37pm

Surely it goes without saying that on average the golfer who hits it further will be better? In the same way as the golfer who hits it more on line will be better, the golfer who's up and down percentage is better will be better, the golfer who gets more putts inside 6 feet will be better, etc.

As regards distance having the biggest correlation to handicap at amateur level.... I'm not convinced. I'm going from anecdotal evidence because I haven't seen any stats on it, but if I look at the guys who are very low, they will almost always have good distance. But they're never wild from the tee. Then thinking of guys from 7-12 handicaps - lots of people in that range who don't hit it far. You can't be short (ignoring real exceptions) but I'd say if you're driving it 225 and always in play you can easily be at the lower end of that range. If you're at the lower end of that range though, there's no way you're wild off the tee.

People should remember as well when thinking about hole lengths that you rarely can't cut a bit off a hole. I've played 450 yard par 4s from the blue stone that I'd regard as straight and hit a 250 yard drive and ended up with 180 yards to the middle of the green. Some holes are a lot longer on the scorecard than in reality.

ShivasIrons · 21-01-2021 6:48pm

The easiest examples to show for all those who think that accuracy matters more then distance is to look at the difference between LPGA and PGA Tour players, the ladies are much more accurate, the average driver speed on the LPGA is 93/94 mph, it's 113/114 mph on the PGA Tour, not one LPGA tour player would even come close to keeping a card on the PGA tour, in fact they would do well to make a cut.

It's roughly 2.4 yards distance per mph, so 20 mph difference in the average speeds would be up to 48 yards. This 48 yards will equate to about 4-5 shots per round difference.

Distance trumps accuracy, 25 yard distance gains mean a big jump in performance. For the OP with his 5 iron and anyone else looking to get better, learn to swing the club faster, especially now when there is no golf.

redzerdrog · 21-01-2021 7:18pm

I am a very poor 14 hcap golfer. I average 254 yards with my driver and lose a fair share of balls in hazards, trees oobs ect.

Regardless of course if you let me add 26yards distance to every one of my drives I would hammer the the 10 hcap golfer that averages 200 in middle of fairway everytime.

Also the 10 hcap /200 average is still gona miss their fair share of fairways too even if super accurate

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 7:54pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

The easiest examples to show for all those who think that accuracy matters more then distance is to look at the difference between LPGA and PGA Tour players, the ladies are much more accurate, the average driver speed on the LPGA is 93/94 mph, it's 113/114 mph on the PGA Tour, not one LPGA tour player would even come close to keeping a card on the PGA tour, in fact they would do well to make a cut.

It's roughly 2.4 yards distance per mph, so 20 mph difference in the average speeds would be up to 48 yards. This 48 yards will equate to about 4-5 shots per round difference.

Distance trumps accuracy, 25 yard distance gains mean a big jump in performance. For the OP with his 5 iron and anyone else looking to get better, learn to swing the club faster, especially now when there is no golf.

What you're saying is true with regards to professionals but i don't think its as straight forward for the average golfer.....as i've said before, most amatures won't have the skill or club head speed to deal with the waywood shots from heavy or even semi rough and thats if they find it or at the very least not without a decent short game.....you (not you personally) wouldn't last very long on a links course if you prioritized length over accuracy thats for sure....

ShivasIrons · 21-01-2021 8:02pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

What you're saying is true with regards to professionals but i don't think its as straight forward for the average golfer.....as i've said before, most amatures won't have the skill or club head speed to deal with the waywood shots from heavy or even semi rough and thats if they find it or at the very least not without a decent short game.....you (not you personally) wouldn't last very long on a links course if you prioritized length over accuracy thats for sure....

If they are closer to the hole these shots become easier, which is easier a 120 shot from the rough or 200 from the fairway?

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 8:05pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

I am a very poor 14 hcap golfer. I average 254 yards with my driver and lose a fair share of balls in hazards, trees oobs ect.

Regardless of course if you let me add 26yards distance to every one of my drives I would hammer the the 10 hcap golfer that averages 200 in middle of fairway everytime.

Also the 10 hcap /200 average is still gona miss their fair share of fairways too even if super accurate

I think this is way off.....with your current performance you say you lose your fair share of balls in hazards and tree, etc (sounds familiar:()....and then say if you added 26 yds to your every one of your drives, you'd hammer the short hitting 10 handicapper in the middle of the fairway, every time?? not so sure....if you add 26 yds onto every one if your drives, without addressing accuracy, then you can be sure that those extra yds will turn semi into heavy and heavy into OB/trees on a lot of holes so for sure you're losing an extra ball or two on top of the ones you admit you already lose....i get that the extra yardage will be a big help on the holes you nail it down the middle or just off the fairway but you have to balance that against the extra trouble you'll encounter for the same amount of (in)accuracy....hitting a couple of irons lower into your average par 4 isnt a guarantee of a birdie for example...you might nick one or two that you otherwise wouldn't have with the longer iron but in the majority if cases, just mean a less stressful par....

i'm a very similar length player, i.e. average around 250 and capable of 275/280 once a round say, but for the average length course i see the route to a better score to be better course management and my short game (which is terrible)...extra length without a corresponding improvement in accuracy will only take you so far (no pun intended!) without a good short game in my opinion.....

FixdePitchmark · 21-01-2021 8:07pm

Snotty wrote: »

My driver swing speed is 84mph and my world handicap is 6.0, so I'm 5 and less at plenty of courses. If I every practiced my short game I could be a good golfer:)

Fair play - that is a fantastic achievement - and I've nothing but admiration for guys that can do that. But you are fairly unusual.

You must be unreal with fairway woods and hybrids ?

What is the total distance of your course from normal tees ?

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 8:11pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

If they are closer to the hole these shots become easier, which is easier a 120 shot from the rough or 200 from the fairway?

I understand that but that's an extreme example...for most people trying to add distance to their game, you're probably talking more like a couple of club length difference.....i'd be surprised if there was that many 200 yd average drivers who can sustain a 10 handicap unless say for example they're a senior player who's average is coming down but still have the all round skill....there's also not that many 10 handicapper that can average 280 i'd guess....sure many can boom one out there that distance depending on the conditions but "average", i'd say they're few and far between until you get to low single figures....just my guess.....

FixdePitchmark · 21-01-2021 8:17pm

https://www.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/HandicapVsAverageDriverClubSpeed.jpg

I think what people underestimate is the impact on lower irons.

Say you are hitting a ball over water on a 180 yard par 3. The flight , the hole , the accuracy is very different with say a 7 or 6 iron over a 4 iron or more.

There are advantages across a few areas. Swing speed and power are important in many other parts of the game.

Shots from rough
Tough wind conditions
Playing in winter conditions or cold conditions.
Long and mid bunker shots
Reaching holes in regulation (every time)
Reaching holes under regulation
People talk about course management - but speed / power gives a much wider shot selection - two 5 irons to a par 4 - take driver out of play.
More power / speed also gives more shot choices like - punch - draw - fade

People in the amateur game go - he is long but all over the place - and yes you see that., but power can be used in a few ways across the game - not just brainless bombing.

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 8:32pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

https://www.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/HandicapVsAverageDriverClubSpeed.jpg

I think what people underestimate is the impact on lower irons.

Say you are hitting a ball over water on a 180 yard par 3. The flight , the hole , the accuracy is very different with say a 7 or 6 iron over a 4 iron or more.

There are advantages across a few areas. Swing speed and power are important in many other parts of the game.

Shots from rough
Tough wind conditions
Playing in winter conditions or cold conditions.
Long and mid bunker shots
Reaching holes in regulation (every time)
Reaching holes under regulation
People talk about course management - but speed / power gives a much wider shoot selection - 2 5 irons to a par 4 - take driver out of play.
More power / speed also gives more shot choices like - punch - draw - fade

People in the amateur game go - he is long but all over the place - and yes you see that., but power can be used in a few ways across the game - not just brainless bombing.

All true and valid points in favour of power/swing speed....as i would have said myself earlier, the distance v accuracy argument is complex and can be logically argued either way depending on the individual.....personally, at the moment, where my game is, i'd prefer more accuracy over distance on the course...but that's because i'm reasonably long for my handicap so would be regularly hitting short irons into par 4s and my misses tend to be disproportionately punished (i.e. i don't actually miss that many fairways but when i do, ...maybe i'd think different if i was significantly shorter....

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 8:36pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

https://www.golfwrx.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/HandicapVsAverageDriverClubSpeed.jpg

I think what people underestimate is the impact on lower irons.

Say you are hitting a ball over water on a 180 yard par 3. The flight , the hole , the accuracy is very different with say a 7 or 6 iron over a 4 iron or more.

There are advantages across a few areas. Swing speed and power are important in many other parts of the game.

Shots from rough
Tough wind conditions
Playing in winter conditions or cold conditions.
Long and mid bunker shots
Reaching holes in regulation (every time)
Reaching holes under regulation
People talk about course management - but speed / power gives a much wider shot selection - two 5 irons to a par 4 - take driver out of play.
More power / speed also gives more shot choices like - punch - draw - fade

People in the amateur game go - he is long but all over the place - and yes you see that., but power can be used in a few ways across the game - not just brainless bombing.

Also, the benefits to swing speed as described above are probably the reason why you are more likely to have a really good amature, at least single figures, with a high swing speed than a low speed as to get down to a low handicap you really need to have next level skill in the areas you describe above....

blue note · 21-01-2021 8:47pm

ShivasIrons wrote: »

The easiest examples to show for all those who think that accuracy matters more then distance is to look at the difference between LPGA and PGA Tour players, the ladies are much more accurate, the average driver speed on the LPGA is 93/94 mph, it's 113/114 mph on the PGA Tour, not one LPGA tour player would even come close to keeping a card on the PGA tour, in fact they would do well to make a cut.

It's roughly 2.4 yards distance per mph, so 20 mph difference in the average speeds would be up to 48 yards. This 48 yards will equate to about 4-5 shots per round difference.

Distance trumps accuracy, 25 yard distance gains mean a big jump in performance. For the OP with his 5 iron and anyone else looking to get better, learn to swing the club faster, especially now when there is no golf.

Ah come on! Show me a tour pro who regards a round as a good one when he finishes with the same ball and then I'll consider it to be comparable! When people talk about accuracy on tour for the most part they're talking about fairway vs rough, not 1-3 lost drives per round!

Talking about an amateur who has to reload on the tee at least once around isn't an extreme example, it's fairly regular in every club in the country. Distance is great, but only at the expense of accuracy if you're missing the fairway by a few yards. When you get to the realms of losing balls or going into trees and bushes, every time you do it you're losing a shot or two. What you will gain from occasionally reaching greens in two that others can't or from hitting a 7i into a green when others are hitting a 4 will quickly be lost to playing 3 off the tee, dropping from unplayable lies and punching out from under trees.

One other thing to mention actually is that on some holes even the shorter hitter will just be hitting a driver 9i or the like. It's no great advantage to be hitting driver 3/4 wedge. Most amateurs aren't any better from 80 yards than they are from 120. So they could hit less from the tee. Because in that instance they're probably better off being accurate than long.

So is distance more important than accuracy? I'd take an extra 30 yards from the tee more often than not if it meant I was just into the rough. But 14 drives on or beside the fairway vs 10-12 on or beside the fairway and the rest very possibly scratched holes? If it's a good score I'm after it's the 14 drives in play any day.

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 9:05pm

blue note wrote: »

Ah come on! Show me a tour pro who regards a round as a good one when he finishes with the same ball and then I'll consider it to be comparable! When people talk about accuracy on tour for the most part they're talking about fairway vs rough, not 1-3 lost drives per round!

Talking about an amateur who has to reload on the tee at least once around isn't an extreme example, it's fairly regular in every club in the country. Distance is great, but only at the expense of accuracy if you're missing the fairway by a few yards. When you get to the realms of losing balls or going into trees and bushes, every time you do it you're losing a shot or two. What you will gain from occasionally reaching greens in two that others can't or from hitting a 7i into a green when others are hitting a 4 will quickly be lost to playing 3 off the tee, dropping from unplayable lies and punching out from under trees.

One other thing to mention actually is that on some holes even the shorter hitter will just be hitting a driver 9i or the like. It's no great advantage to be hitting driver 3/4 wedge. Most amateurs aren't any better from 80 yards than they are from 120. So they could hit less from the tee. Because in that instance they're probably better off being accurate than long.

So is distance more important than accuracy? I'd take an extra 30 yards from the tee more often than not if it meant I was just into the rough. But 14 drives on or beside the fairway vs 10-12 on or beside the fairway and the rest very possibly scratched holes? If it's a good score I'm after it's the 14 drives in play any day.

yeah, i'd agree 100% with the above.....also in reference to the post you replied to, there's very few decent golfers who can add the 20mph swing speed they mention which would add 48yds to their drives.....not a hope....i'd say if you could add 5 to 10mph you'd be doing well while still being in reasonable control of the club.....most fit and decent golfers are already swinging at a reasonable speed relative to what extra they could gain while still being "in control" such that you've some hope of keeping the ball in play....

blue note · 21-01-2021 9:18pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

yeah, i'd agree 100% with the above.....also in reference to the post you replied to, there's very few decent golfers who can add the 20mph swing speed they mention which would add 48yds to their drives.....not a hope....i'd say if you could add 5 to 10mph you'd be doing well while still being in reasonable control of the club.....most fit and decent golfers are already swinging at a reasonable speed relative to what extra they could gain while still being "in control" such that you've some hope of keeping the ball in play....

That's very true. I was fitted for a driver and surprised when I tried to smash one how few extra mph I was getting. I'd say it was about 4mph extra when I really wound up for one. Oddly, when I did that they were possibly going straighter too. I think the slight extra rotation meant I was going around my body more and lessening the chance of me coming from over the top, but that's a side issue. Swinging what I would regard as easy, I was losing about 2mph. Swinging faster than I'd consider on the course, I was gaining at most 4.

21-01-2021 9:22pm

For those that feel they can't hold back the tide of diminishing distance as you age. Mark Crossfield has a few interesting videos on YouTube. He is mid 40's and has increased his speed to 112mph. He is only a slight man too. Use of the legs and the ground seems to be very important.

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 9:29pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

For those that feel they can't hold back the tide of diminishing distance as you age. Mark Crossfield has a few interesting videos on YouTube. He is mid 40's and has increased his speed to 112mph. He is only a slight man too. Use of the legs and the ground seems to be very important.

Yeah that last bit is true alright....picked it up on YouTube, probably Rick, and tried it out, ie driving from feet up on the down swing to generate extra power and defo felt it was working...then the pandemic hit and lost it allðŸ€¦*♂️

Snotty · 21-01-2021 9:56pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Fair play - that is a fantastic achievement - and I've nothing but admiration for guys that can do that. But you are fairly unusual.

You must be unreal with fairway woods and hybrids ?

What is the total distance of your course from normal tees ?

6900 off the middle tees, it's not a short course, considering my last home course was closer to 5800yards.

Well I can swing faster, but I get out of sync and tempo goes out the window. I've a positive AOA combined with a low loft driver I can produce low spin and normal a bit of run out. I'm average enough with the rest of the game but 14/14 FIR would be normal enough. I'd rather be 30 yards back in the fairway, mainly due to me being a sweeper and not compressing the ball enough, means I don't get good contact out of the rough.

I'd agree with the general consensus, more length = lower scores, but thinking of the good players in my club, a trend would be good short games and slightly above average driving length, I can't think of one golfer who's long off the tee, average short game and low handicap (less than 5).

redzerdrog · 21-01-2021 10:28pm

blue note wrote: »

Most amateurs aren't any better from 80 yards than they are from 120. So they could hit less from the tee. Because in that instance they're probably better off being accurate than long.

This is totally and utterly incorrect. There is tons of data that proves otherwise and the vast vast majority of golfers of every level will have a closer proximity to the hole from 80 yards rather than 120 yards

MarcusP12 · 21-01-2021 10:47pm

redzerdrog wrote: »

This is totally and utterly incorrect. There is tons of data that proves otherwise and the vast vast majority of golfers of every level will have a closer proximity to the hole from 80 yards rather than 120 yards

I’m sure what you’re saying is correct but it’s meaningless unless you relate it to the stats associated with the closer putting....what I mean is will they get it close enough whereby they’ve a significantly better chance of making the putt for it make a difference to the round...for example if a mid handicapper can get it to 10 ft from 80 yds compared to 15-20 ft from 120, they still only have a 1 in 5 chance of making that putt anyway and how many will they have of that length in a round?and I’d consider hitting to 10ft from 80 yds pretty good going by most standards.... So a more comfortable 2 putt from closer range is still a 2 putt....

hurleronditch · 21-01-2021 10:57pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

I’m sure what you’re saying is correct but it’s meaningless unless you relate it to the stats associated with the closer putting....what I mean is will they get it close enough whereby they’ve a significantly better chance of making the putt for it make a difference to the round...for example if a mid handicapper can get it to 10 ft from 80 yds compared to 15-20 ft from 120, they still only have a 1 in 5 chance of making that putt anyway and how many will they have of that length in a round?and I’d consider hitting to 10ft from 80 yds pretty good going by most standards.... So a more comfortable 2 putt from closer range is still a 2 putt....

You maybe correct for 80 & 120, but at those distances even the shortest hitters if they’re regular golfers are taking no more than a 9 iron from 120 so they should find the putting surface more often than not. A more valid comparison is 130 vs 170. Most mid handicappers will hit the green probably at least 50% of the time from 130 in the fairway, but from 170 shorter hitters in particular may be getting into 1 in 3 or 4 territory to hit the green, whereas the fella at 130, even from a first cut should be getting to 20 feet. The difference between the two is exponentially magnified if one guy is putting and the other is in a bunker or has a short sided chip.

redzerdrog · 21-01-2021 10:59pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

I’m sure what you’re saying is correct but it’s meaningless unless you relate it to the stats associated with the closer putting....what I mean is will they get it close enough whereby they’ve a significantly better chance of making the putt for it make a difference to the round...for example if a mid handicapper can get it to 10 ft from 80 yds compared to 15-20 ft from 120, they still only have a 1 in 5 chance of making that putt anyway and how many will they have of that length in a round?and I’d consider hitting to 10ft from 80 yds pretty good going by most standards.... So a more comfortable 2 putt from closer range is still a 2 putt....

Without knowing the exact figures I imagine 10ft proximity from 80 yards is above pga tour average. You really are talking nonsense here an extra 10 ft of proximity further from the hole will increase 3 putts rather than just a less comfortable 2 putt. That's even if they hit the green from 120

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