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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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  • #2162
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    markodaly wrote: »

    Teachers vote, ipads and laptops do not... the Irish solution to every problem.

    In this month alone we have had..
    Irish white water rafting for 25m, head of hse getting a 80k raise, the salaries of the special advisors to ministers coming to millions, but nah its the teachers' salaries that are the reason for us being ranked one of the lowest in terms of oecd spending on education, while still coming out at the top in terms of timms scores etc.


  • #2163
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭History Queen


    markodaly wrote: »
    I agree with you on this, but we do spend a lot on education per say but most of it goes to wages and pensions. We have some of the highest teacher salaries in the OECD working in prefabs with no ICT.... do the math.

    Teachers vote, ipads and laptops do not... the Irish solution to every problem.

    We grossly underfund education. That isn't because of wages. We are number 127 in a list of countries % spend per gdp on education.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_spending_on_education_(%25_of_GDP)


  • #2164
    Locotastic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Locotastic


    Louis Friend wrote: »
    It’d be a Government/Stephen Donnelly/HSE/Vaccine Taskforce call.

    But why not?

    Because the priority list for vaccinations starts with those working in healthcare (we need as many of them as possible because you don't want to see what it would be like without them) as well as the very elderly and vulnerable who are most likely to develop serious complications if they got the virus.

    Then it goes on a priority basis of age/underlying conditions etc etc.

    So who would you bump down the list in favour of teachers??

    Do you think it will make much difference if all teachers are vaccinated but none of the students are?


  • #2165
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    Locotastic wrote: »
    So who would you bump down the list in favour of teachers??

    Do you think it will make much difference if all teachers are vaccinated but none of the students are?

    So you're not actually looking for an answer to your first question with your second question there.

    And your second question is valid, this is about schools being safe for everyone, not just teachers. Support staff and students etc.


  • #2166
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,313 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    History Queen wrote: »
    We grossly underfund education. That isn't because of wages. We are number 127 in a list of countries % spend per gdp on education.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_spending_on_education_(%25_of_GDP)

    In fairness, it is useless to compare Ireland to other countries using GDP given the way our tax and economy is structured.
    Patrick Honohan has said that Irish GDP data is “worse than useless.”
    From the Irish Times

    But looking at that we spend more than Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, but then again they may have odd GDP figures as well.


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  • #2167
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,313 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    The Wordress wrote: »
    It's the teachers fault for being paid and to expect to get a pension that they are paying into!? Hell, I don't even think I will get a pension by the time I even reach retirement.

    More like, the Irish government are famous for wasting tax payers money.

    Example- the Hole in the Ground that is the Children's Hospital. 1 billion+ spent so far and it's not even built yet. Of course it is needed but are they building it with gold bar blocks!?

    I don't want to bring this topic off thread, but I agree in essence with your train of thought, we do not get good value for money here in this country, so why are Teacher Unions always fighting for more pay rather than reform?

    E.g. Teachers will end up with pensions far far away much better than anything they will have paid into. This is a fact. So, are you really fighting the value for money angle, or just trying to justify high costs of teachers in Ireland by saying, "Look at the children's hospital!!"


  • #2168
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,313 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    In this month alone we have had..
    Irish white water rafting for 25m, head of hse getting a 80k raise, the salaries of the special advisors to ministers coming to millions, but nah its the teachers' salaries that are the reason for us being ranked one of the lowest in terms of oecd spending on education, while still coming out at the top in terms of timms scores etc.

    It goes some way to explain why we have no existing ICT and kids being taught in prefabs. Look at the data, look at where each overall € of publicly funding spend goes to. As a % we pay far more into the pockets of teachers and pensions than we do things like ancillary support, ICT, infrastructure, capital spending etc..

    As I have said many a time, this is not an education only issue, it is rampant across all aspect of Irish publicly funded services and institutions.

    Disagree all you want but the data backs me up and indeed in this times of Covid, we should really as a society be looking at different ways of doing things rather then each all having the hand out for a pay rise.

    For one, I would much rather more SNA's, more places for special needs kids, better ICT, subsided computers or ipads for the disadvantaged, better sports facilities in schools, more teachers in the school teaching, free schools dinners..... if we got away from the obsession of gifting pay rises to teachers every year.


  • #2169
    Smacruairi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭Smacruairi


    markodaly wrote: »
    l
    Hand out for the pay rise...
    As I .. if we got away from the obsession of gifting pay rises to teachers every year.

    Marko, I know your history of posting about the public sector, so there's no point in arguing about that,literally nothing will change. Just the only thing on your last point here - teachers haven't had a pay raise, you know that. It seems like you are arguing against the increment system, and you want to keep all teachers capped at 30k (if u are lucky to get a full contract!) a year. This when we are in a severe teacher shortage, with 6 years of college needed. That's bonkers man, and in no way helps the thread topic.


  • #2170
    Qwertyminger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 96 ✭✭Qwertyminger


    No punches pulled in this response to the statement issued by the Department yesterday. it breaks it down piece by piece to figure out the underlying meaning... Or is this thread just for chastising teachers for their wages?":rolleyes:


  • #2171
    KerryConnor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭KerryConnor


    The way NI and UK in general are managing any aspect of covid should not be a bar for us. They seem unable to manage case numbers which have stayed consistently high. At least in the republic when we have a massive spike it seems (fingers crossed)that we can bring it back under control.

    The situation around SEN since Christmas has been massively upsetting and stressful for all involved. The constant reporting of every twist n turn in media makes situation so much more difficult I just wish the 'stakeholders' could actually work together behind closed doors instead of this lambasting each other.
    political analyst wrote: »
    If many special schools in Northern Ireland are providing in-person teaching, why won't the unions in the Republic agree to that?


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/government-abandons-plans-for-partial-re-opening-of-schools-on-thursday-after-union-opposition-39988211.html


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  • #2172
    Sheep breeder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭Sheep breeder


    Haven’t being following for the last few days due to busy in work, we have two in secondary at present and working on iPads ( all our school works on iPads instead of books) teachers giving classes and work to do and lads getting on with it. Teachers are contacting kids all the time and better explaining and setting out of work since last lock down and getting on well so far.
    We don’t want school to open till the curve has flattened out to back to prior Christmas holidays. Couple of points about the kids and all the talk here about getting them back into class, first and foremost the people on here who want them back I ask the question how many posters have kids in school and does this effect them daily !!!! Or is this thread more about giving out about teachers and defending a poor minister.
    The kids are strong minded and get on with things nowadays and have social media to interact with one and other, our two are zooming their class mates about the work and helping one another and having the craic among themselves.
    The teachers are doing their best and fair play and as I have said before there are two types of teachers, the ones that want to work and are all about their students doing well and the ones that don’t give a damn ( only a small percentage).
    Our two understand Covid and how serious it has become and want to stay safe.


  • #2173
    Locotastic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Locotastic


    Smacruairi wrote: »
    So you're not actually looking for an answer to your first question with your second question there.

    And your second question is valid, this is about schools being safe for everyone, not just teachers. Support staff and students etc.

    That poster wants teachers pushed to the front of the queue for vaccines.

    I'd like to know who they think should be bumped down the list to facilitate this.
    Louis Friend wrote: »
    Here’s an idea...

    There are around 50,000 teachers in Ireland.

    Why don’t we push them to the front of the queue for vaccination?


  • #2174
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    History Queen wrote: »
    I'm almost tempted to tune in....almost...

    https://twitter.com/NTBreakfast/status/1351660625466961922?s=19

    Anyone know what time Norma is on?


  • #2175
    Theboinkmaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,053 ✭✭✭Theboinkmaster


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    .

    Is there an anticipated level of cases where teachers would feel safe returning?

    This is key for me. HSE have confirmed they’ll resume close contact tracing once daily cases are less than 2,000 which we are now at - so assume this will resume this week.

    We are well on course to have daily cases less than 1,000 by 1 Feb so assuming we do will teachers come back? We were at that level last October/November with no issues.

    Why don’t union just confirm daily cases that they will return ie average that we had sept-dec when schools open with no issues.


  • #2176
    dirkmeister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭dirkmeister


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Anyone know what time Norma is on?

    Just switched on there and the first thing I heard was a nice bit of teacher bashing.

    Nice, balanced discussion taking in both sides of the story.

    Edit: After 8, according to Ciara Kelly.


  • #2177
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    dirkmeister wrote: »
    Just switched on there and the first thing I heard was a nice bit of teacher bashing.

    Nice, balanced discussion taking in both sides of the story.

    I'm wondering have they covered it already? Looking at their twitter Andy Pike, Michael McGrath and some lad from Inclusion Ireand ave already been on.

    Pains me to give them a listen.


  • #2178
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Norma will be on Newstalk Breakfast after 8.


  • #2179
    Locotastic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Locotastic


    Theboinkmaster wrote: »
    This is key for me. HSE have confirmed they’ll resume close contact tracing once daily cases are less than 2,000 which we are now at - so assume this will resume this week.

    We are well on course to have daily cases less than 1,000 by 1 Feb so assuming we do will teachers come back? We were at that level last October/November with no issues.

    Why don’t union just confirm daily cases that they will return ie average that we had sept-dec when schools open with no issues.

    Agree, tracing will likely resume this week and a return on 1st of February should not be ruled out.

    I don't think unions can or should decide what level of cases anyone returns, it's not up to them. The Department of Education will be instructed to open whenever Gov and NPHET deems it appropriate.

    I think they'll wait until after midterm break, it makes sense but teachers should be prepared that it could be earlier.


  • #2180
    paddyirish23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 467 ✭✭paddyirish23


    So of the government has now came out as they did last night saying SE schools won't be opening due to lack of cooperation from unions, what's next? If government are seriously going down this route then PUP payment on the next step?


  • #2181
    fits
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,053 ✭✭✭✭fits


    The whole point of schools closing is to restrict movements and reduce contacts where possible. As with other aspects of society exceptions should be made for essential services without other options available. Things like supermarkets, medical appointments. However the overall number of contacts remain low because of steps taken in other areas that are not essential or where other options are available. Certain things are prioritised.

    I don’t think some people fully appreciate how relentless special needs parenting can be. For some kids it’s 24/7. And there is no online option for these kids. They regress rapidly.

    Special teachers and SNAs could return and still keep contacts to a minimum. Contact with eg five children is very different to 30 odd. And these children need it. They really need it

    All parties involved need to cop themselves on and sort it out.


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  • #2182
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ,,


  • #2183
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I thought this was interesting


  • #2184
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Locotastic wrote: »
    Agree, tracing will likely resume this week and a return on 1st of February should not be ruled out.

    I don't think unions can or should decide what level of cases anyone returns, it's not up to them. The Department of Education will be instructed to open whenever Gov and NPHET deems it appropriate.

    I think they'll wait until after midterm break, it makes sense but teachers should be prepared that it could be earlier.

    I'll be happy to go back if test track has been up and running for a short while and the numbers are also consistently below let's say 800 for a week.

    No point opening too quick and then we have to close again. None of us want this again. If it means waiting until Feb 22nd then just say that and everyone can just get on with things.

    Negotiations can continue in the background for LC and others to go back before that date.When I say negotiations I mean meaningful ones.


  • #2185
    titan18
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,052 ✭✭✭✭titan18


    Locotastic wrote: »
    That poster wants teachers pushed to the front of the queue for vaccines.

    I'd like to know who they think should be bumped down the list to facilitate this.

    The government consider people working in meat factories more essential than teachers based on the allocation plan.


  • #2186
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    paddyirish23 wrote: »
    So of the government has now came out as they did last night saying SE schools won't be opening due to lack of cooperation from unions, what's next? If government are seriously going down this route then PUP payment on the next step?

    Ohh my dear God. Inform yourself Paddy. Very ill-informed.


  • #2187
    fits
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,053 ✭✭✭✭fits


    TheTorment wrote: »
    I thought this was interesting

    Well we are seeing our SLT every two weeks since June. She wears a visor. Masks not doable for obvious reasons. She’s not HSE though.

    Physio and OT that are HSE visited us at home in October and have seen child in preschool. There was no PPE such as above so I’d imagine it’s very situation dependent.


  • #2188
    History Queen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭History Queen


    On now


  • #2189
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Norma and INTO will also be on Morning Ireland on RTE Radio 1.


  • #2190
    dirkmeister
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,683 ✭✭✭dirkmeister


    wirelessdude01 wrote: »
    Norma and INTO will also be on Morning Ireland on RTE Radio 1.

    That might be better than this Party Political broadcast.

    Remember, Niall Collins flat out denied that the PPE budget had been cut by 40% on National TV last night.

    F*cking untrustworthy, sneaky people.


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  • #2191
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Jesus Norma still quoting data from before Christmas. Banging the constant engagement with unions. No mention of the "partners in education" rubbish. Throwing teachers under the bus. She is absolutely raging.


This discussion has been closed.
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