Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01

JP100 · 20-01-2021 12:34AM

How on earth is Norma Foley's position tenable after all of this and more to the point why do we not even have one politician coming out and calling for her resignation?! If she was in the private sector she would have been sacked long ago.

Larsso30 · 20-01-2021 12:36AM

political analyst wrote: »

Why couldn't the special schools re-open for the benefit of children who have no serious underlying health problems but are regressing because of the closure of those schools while those children who would not survive if they are infected stay at home?

Because teachers unions refused .....

Larsso30 · 20-01-2021 12:38AM

JP100 wrote: »

How is Norma Foley's position tenable after all of this and more to the point why do we not even have one politician coming out and calling for her resignation?! If she was in the private sector she would have been sacked long ago.

Ah if this whole situation was in the private sector they would be going back next week. Don't get option to refuse to work in the private sector

political analyst · 20-01-2021 12:38AM

Larsso30 wrote: »

Because teachers unions refused .....

But there would have been more room for distancing because of children with underlying problems staying at home. So why was that not enough for the unions representing special-school workers?

downthemiddle · 20-01-2021 12:39AM

political analyst wrote: »

Why couldn't the special schools re-open for the benefit of children who have no serious underlying health problems but are regressing because of the closure of those schools while those children who would not survive if they are infected stay at home?

I know this is a well meaning post but......Would you like to have that conversation with a parent? Sorry your child cannot return to school in case we kill them.
The complexity of children with additional needs is misunderstood by many. This is one of the greatest challenges in addressing this issue. Their vulnerabilities are wide and varied. There is no easy fix.

irishproduce · 20-01-2021 12:39AM

Watched prime time this eve.
I think the unions are under pressure. The teachers are held in a high regard across communities here and globally.
There is an expectation on them now to stop finding problems and instead get behind an effort to return the special needs children like other countries.
No one is saying the teachers are lazy avoiding work, they're doing a fine job at the moment on the remote stuff but it's hard to forgive the refusal to go in and teach the children that are being left behind for who remote learning is simply not an optint. It's very sad.

Bananaleaf · 20-01-2021 12:41AM

Larsso30 wrote: »

Ah if this whole situation was in the private sector they would be going back next week. Don't get option to refuse to work in the private sector

along with our company cars, Christmas bonuses and the huge expenses cheque ye all got for WFH furniture or whatever

Loafing Oaf · 20-01-2021 12:41AM

political analyst wrote: »

But there would have been more room for distancing because of children with underlying problems staying at home.

Impossible to maintain social distance from many of these kids.

downthemiddle · 20-01-2021 12:42AM

Larsso30 wrote: »

Because teachers unions refused .....

How could anyone reject a proposal that was never on the table?

Murple · 20-01-2021 12:43AM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I do wonder about some of the stuff that’s coming by email instead of circular. Why did that come by email? Why did the opening of schools come by email?

It’s like the sender is acting like a (dictatorial) principal rather than a minister.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 20-01-2021 12:43AM

Larsso30 wrote: »

Ah if this whole situation was in the private sector they would be going back next week. Don't get option to refuse to work in the private sector

Plenty of private sector working from home as instructed by NPHET but not getting crap for it

Loafing Oaf · 20-01-2021 12:43AM

irishproduce wrote: »

No one is saying the teachers are lazy avoiding work,

Plenty of contributors to this very thread have, although sadly most of them are no longer posting...

JP100 · 20-01-2021 12:44AM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

along with our company cars, Christmas bonuses and the huge expenses cheque ye all got for WFH furniture or whatever

Yep, it's amazing the amount of folk calling for teachers to go back into an unsafe environment while themselves working and posting comments online from the comfort of their own home!

am_zarathustra · 20-01-2021 12:46AM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Impossible to maintain social distance from many of these kids.

We'd one who used to lick your arm when you weren't looking. Grand in the winter. Shock in a tshirt. Great kid but almost non verbal so very unlikely to understand any form of social distancing. It's an awful sitution but as I said in the post above, had serious talks happened in the first two weeks of January I think those kids would be back. I don't work in the exact field any more but this is a political failure and rank incompetence by a TD who'd been in the dail a wet minute and was handed a complex ministry, in a pandemic with a fairly awful department

brookers · 20-01-2021 12:47AM

irishproduce wrote: »

Watched prime time this eve.
I think the unions are under pressure. The teachers are held in a high regard across communities here and globally.
There is an expectation on them now to stop finding problems and instead get behind an effort to return the special needs children like other countries.
No one is saying the teachers are lazy avoiding work, they're doing a fine job at the moment on the remote stuff but it's hard to forgive the refusal to go in and teach the children that are being left behind for who remote learning is simply not an optint. It's very sad.

I saw a doctor on rte this evening who had two special needs children, she got a tutor in, she seemed really angry. What happens though in the summer or at christmas or at easter. What if one of the children become really sick, who stays at home with them. surely parents cant totally be depending on teachers. there is something wrong somewhere when that is the case.

The Wordress · 20-01-2021 12:47AM

In all my years of teaching, I have never seen a situation handled so badly.

I am now paranoid that my parents think I do not care about their children or education.

I am so annoyed that we were pitted against the parents of our SEN children.

I hate the situation we are all in and I feel for the people who are going through the hardest of hardships.

I want to look forward to the time when we are on the other side of this, safe and healthily.

I'm still fuming at the government.

I'm finding it hard to put into words the frustration at the stick of dynamite the government threw at us and ran away from.

political analyst · 20-01-2021 12:47AM

downthemiddle wrote: »

I know this is a well meaning post but......Would you like to have that conversation with a parent? Sorry your child cannot return to school in case we kill them.
The complexity of children with additional needs is misunderstood by many. This is one of the greatest challenges in addressing this issue. Their vulnerabilities are wide and varied. There is no easy fix.

This is what I based my post on.

https://www.independent.ie/news/the-parents-are-turning-on-each-other-debate-on-opening-special-education-schools-intensifies-39984790.html

The uncertainty around special education schools reopening this Thursday is causing parents to “turn on each other” Eleanor McSheery of the Special Needs Parents’ Association has said.

Ms McSherry, who co-founded the association said it was sad to see parents so divided but admitted it was “understandable.”

Ms McSherry told Morning Ireland on RTÉ Radio One that the uncertainty had parents “all at sea”.

“In my 16 years of being a parent of a child with a disability, I have never seen such divisiveness within our community. It’s very sad to see. I’ve had parents remove themselves from online social groups because they have been so upset by it.

“There’s a huge divide in the community because some people’s children would not survive getting Covid-19, their children aren’t going to be sent back in. Yet, the other half, their children have intellectual disabilities who would otherwise be quite healthy and they are regressing. They want the schools open.

This is very divisive at the moment. Forget about your teacher’s unions and the government, the parents themselves are now turning on each other - which is very sad to see, but quite understandable, unfortunately,” Ms McSherry said.

Bananaleaf · 20-01-2021 12:49AM

The Wordress wrote: »

In all my years of teaching, I have never seen a situation handled so badly.

I am now paranoid that my parents think I do not care about their children or education.

I am so annoyed that we were pitted against the parents of our SEN children.

I hate the situation we are all in and I feel for the people who are going through the hardest of hardships.

I want to look forward to the time when we are on the other side of this, safe and healthily.

I'm still fuming at the government.

I'm finding it hard to put into words the frustration at the stick of dynamite the government threw at us and ran away from.

And those kids have been directly lied to TWICE by the government. The most vulnerable you can find. Twice.

downthemiddle · 20-01-2021 12:50AM

political analyst wrote: »

This is what I based my post on.

https://www.independent.ie/news/the-parents-are-turning-on-each-other-debate-on-opening-special-education-schools-intensifies-39984790.html

Fair enough. I fully understand the point she is making but it is poorly worded. The fact that the parents are divided tells its own story.

lawred2 · 20-01-2021 12:51AM

The Wordress wrote: »

In all my years of teaching, I have never seen a situation handled so badly.

I am now paranoid that my parents think I do not care about their children or education.

I am so annoyed that we were pitted against the parents of our SEN children.

I hate the situation we are all in and I feel for the people who are going through the hardest of hardships.

I want to look forward to the time when we are on the other side of this, safe and healthily.

I'm still fuming at the government.

I'm finding it hard to put into words the frustration at the stick of dynamite the government threw at us and ran away from.

What's the solution?

Murple · 20-01-2021 12:51AM

WicklaBlaa wrote: »

Why are we the only country in Europe not providing education in schools to these children?

I really don't get it....

Can you provide links to information that states this is the case?
I keep hearing it said but I have yet to find reliable information to confirm it.

Bananaleaf · 20-01-2021 12:53AM

political analyst wrote: »

Why couldn't the special schools re-open for the benefit of children who have no serious underlying health problems but are regressing because of the closure of those schools while those children who would not survive if they are infected stay at home?

Not directed at you polital analyst, but what wrecks my head when I hear this is that clearly the little bit of withdrawal or 1-2-1 that these children get in school is ALL they are getting full stop. To me that is absolutely shocking and hard to believe. To me that is the bigger scandal. Where are all the other supports for these children? There are many much less deserving taking far far more from the public purse. Why have they not had more supports than what they were given in school? Makes me mad

am_zarathustra · 20-01-2021 12:53AM

brookers wrote: »

I saw a doctor on rte this evening who had two special needs children, she got a tutor in, she seemed really angry. What happens though in the summer or at christmas or at easter. What if one of the children become really sick, who stays at home with them. surely parents cant totally be depending on teachers. there is something wrong somewhere when that is the case.

They do sometimes, July provision provides a month of extra support so in primary they finish school end of June, then for July they have someone come to the house, usually an SNA or teacher in the school and then they are left with just August! I know a fair few who then pay for a week or two on top of the July provision. For these parents services tend to be sporadic and hard to access, they can also be unreliable. They are used to school being their reliable touchstone as no other part of their child's continuum of care is actually functioning in the manner it should be. It's a credit to these schools and the staff but an enditment on the rest of the social security net that should be in place for these kids. I don't blame the parents lord knows they try their level best to campaign for extra services but maybe this will draw attention to it and in the long run improve things

downthemiddle · 20-01-2021 12:56AM

lawred2 wrote: »

What's the solution?

The crux of the issue. If it was straightforward we would all shout it from the rooftops.
The only way this will be resolved, at this stage, is for certain adults to leave their egos outside the door and start behaving like adults.

BonsaiKitten · 20-01-2021 12:57AM

I'm just thinking about two of the special schools I've experience of and trying to imagine what their reopening might look like.

One is a behavioural needs school. Ancient building with tiny classrooms. Staff constantly off due to being injured by pupils. These are not tiny tots we're talking about, many big teens in there. Lots from difficult backgrounds and the staff do Trojan work...but there is zero social distancing and changing their routine at all (like staggering days) can cause extreme reactions. I can't see how you bring them back safely.

The other is a school for children with profound learning disabilities. Many kids would be extremely medically vulnerable and physical care needs are high. You can't socially distance from these guys and if someone unknowingly brought Covid in, there could be tragic consequences.

I mean seriously, how can the Government expect these places to open in the same way? They're chalk and cheese. No doubt if you asked the staff in these schools to come up with a solution they would - given time - but Norma landing them all with a "open next week or else" order? So out of touch with the realities of special schools.

Murple · 20-01-2021 12:58AM

political analyst wrote: »

Why couldn't the special schools re-open for the benefit of children who have no serious underlying health problems but are regressing because of the closure of those schools while those children who would not survive if they are infected stay at home?

Because it concerns more than just children. It involves many supporting adults.
Teachers have lost faith in the way the HSE have handled Covid cases in schools. Whatever about managing when case numbers were low and community transmission was relatively under control, it’s a different matter when it’s admitted many close contacts are not being tested, case numbers are very high even without full testing and community transmission has been described as out of control.
Tony Holohan’s mantra for the summer was if community transmission rates are low, then it is safe to reopen schools. If it’s not in the community, it can’t get into the schools. This was said over and over. Why has that message changed?

The Wordress · 20-01-2021 12:59AM

One good thing that might come from this is that people are talking about Special Education and the needs of SEN children and the supports that their parents need from an early age.

I am very lucky that I have access to an amazing Early Intervention Team in my county.

However, I know of an OT who works as part of an EIT who had to stop answering the phone to parents who were looking for a psychological assessment for their child.

The waiting list is 4 years!

Maybe this government will address this and what investment needs to put into these services.

hesaidshesaid · 20-01-2021 01:00AM

While it's easy to hate on Norma and her general tone and attitude towards her former colleagues, she is really just the face. We have to look at the Department behind her, the Sec Gen who answered most of the questions in at least one of the meetings with the unions, the Assistant Sec Gen who hosted that webinar yesterday and assured us all that the comments had all been positive and supportive. Meanwhile the comments had been disabled shortly after the webinar began. The youtube comments were wiped this morning. There is serious whitewashing afoot. Even if you look at the statement the DES released tonight, it is pure rage. That's not just Norma and Josepha, there are serious players behind them who believe every word of it too.

And these are the people who have been working in the DES for decades, the people who have overseen the cutbacks in SEN provision year on year. Even if Norma goes, which I really doubt, they will remain. The lack of funding and respect for the most vulnerable sector will continue. I think that's the biggest issue here, the pandemic has just shone a very bright spotlight on it.

am_zarathustra · 20-01-2021 01:01AM

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

I'm just thinking about two of the special schools I've experience of and trying to imagine what their reopening might look like.

One is a behavioural needs school. Ancient building with tiny classrooms. Staff constantly off due to being injured by pupils. These are not tiny tots we're talking about, many big teens in there. Lots from difficult backgrounds and the staff do Trojan work...but there is zero social distancing and changing their routine at all (like staggering days) can cause extreme reactions. I can't see how you bring them back safely.

The other is a school for children with profound learning disabilities. Many kids would be extremely medically vulnerable and physical care needs are high. You can't socially distance from these guys and if someone unknowingly brought Covid in, there could be tragic consequences.

I mean seriously, how can the Government expect these places to open in the same way? They're chalk and cheese. No doubt if you asked the staff in these schools to come up with a solution they would - given time - but Norma landing them all with a "open next week or else" order? So out of touch with the realities of special schools.

Exactly this. A couple of weeks, access to resources,all the stakeholdersfiguring out a plan that works for 90% and who you call when your in the 10%, an honest conversation about how it can be done in individual settings and then an announcement. That's how these things are supposed to go. That is not what happened

Van.Bosch · 20-01-2021 01:02AM

The SEN debacle is only really the start - what’s going to happen with opening the whole school system on Feb 1st or whatever date is decided.

Is there an anticipated level of cases where teachers would feel safe returning?

Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) Mod warning in OP 22/01