Off Topic Thread 5.0

Squidgy Black · 13-01-2021 9:06pm

That California fella is an absolute tit.

CatFromHue · 13-01-2021 9:58pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's astonishing how much Ireland has changed in such a short period of time and I think it's cultural impact is fascinating in many ways. I think you are right in that the current generation missed out on a huge transition in how we live, think, eat and interact but I'm glad my kids will grow up in a secular and more accepting world.

I agree that things really took off in the 90s. I would say that joining the EU was probably the catalyst for it all but it was a remarkable shift in public life and impacted all aspects of society.

The recession of the 80's and massive emigration (people leaving) would have had a big affect on society not progressing.

In the 90's not only did emigration slow down but immigration (people coming into) increased. This was the first sustained period in Irish history of positive net migration.

Annual Estimates of Net Migration from Ireland (000s)

That period from around 1935 to 1972 and then all of the 80s :eek:

The EU was a factor and so was the IDA and the focus on bringing more knowledge based jobs to Ireland.

There's good reasons to give out about the multi-nationals, though not as many as some would say, but there's also plenty of reasons to thank for them.

Former Former Former · 13-01-2021 10:27pm

The EU was a huge factor in bringing Ireland out of the dark ages.

Like, prior to the joining the EEC in 1973, it was perfectly legal to fire a woman for the heinous crime of getting married.

The anti discrimination laws of Europe were the perfect antidote to the Catholic Church whose power rested entirely on discrimination against those who did not conform. Health, education, family life, social care, all outsourced by the state to the bishops, always with disastrous results.

Joining the EEC meant we finally had someone in authority who wasn't cowed by the Church in the way our governments had been since the founding of the state.

The Catholic Church was the worst thing to ever happen this country. Lots of good priests and nuns, but as an organisation, it is hard to describe them as anything but evil.

Zzippy · 13-01-2021 10:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Mitch McConnell is now saying he would vote to impeach so it could well happen as he is the de-facto leader of the Republican party. This is a decision that will be made exclusively for selfish political reasons so I wonder if there is something else about to come out. Polling suggests that republican voters don't have a huge issue with the riots and Trump is still absurdly popular among rank and file GOP supporters so there are risks outing him in this fashion.

The entertainment value of American politics is something else, but it's also awful to see politics devolve into nonsense reality tv.

McConnell says he hasn't decided. He will vote whichever way he thinks will most benefit him and the party, no matter how much he hates Trump. I wouldn't hold my breath on him. Regardless, unless Trump resigns or Pence invokes 25A (both highly unlikely), he won't be convicted before the end of his term.

stephen_n · 14-01-2021 8:55am

Buer wrote: »

Whilst in chronological terms it's certainly not that long ago, the era of when the church had such a hold understandably seems like a completely different age to some. It's unrecognisable from the society we now live in and it's very hard for people to grasp how close they were to living in it.

From a visual perspective, if you look back at Reeling in the Years on RTE, there's an incredible change that took place in about 5-7 years. If I was to look at footage from 2012 on television now, I could look at it and it really wouldn't seem very different from today. If you look at footage from 1992 and from 2000, however....it looks like a completely different era.

Here's the episode from 1992 Watch the opening 2 minutes and you could honestly believe it's from the 1970s judging by the quality of footage, fashion etc. The fact that those opening 2 minutes also demonstrate the grasp of the church (interviewing a bishop about unemployment and the infamous X Case) goes hand in hand with that.

The world became a vastly smaller place in the late 90s through technology and the advent of the Celtic Tiger changed the behaviour and mentality of us as a population forerver. It's hard for younger people to identify with the world that was in any respect prior to those times.

From 2.30 looks fairly similar to 2020.

Buer · 14-01-2021 12:47pm

stephen_n wrote: »

From 2.30 looks fairly similar to 2020.

It's incredible looking back and to think that we saw very similar situations almost 28 years on. I'm sure people in 1992 were looking at footage from from something like the Selma marches in 1965 and wondering how things are the same 27 years on.

With that said, those 1992 riots were far more intense than what we've seen during the BLM movement which are far more composed and civil on the part of the protestors. Over 60 people died in LA (10 shot dead by law enforcement) and the city burned back in 1992 with $1BN worth of damage done and there was massive criticism and blame of the ethnic communities. On this occasion, the conversation was far more concentrated on the actions of law enforcement and conservative elements retaliating.

pickarooney · 14-01-2021 4:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's astonishing how much Ireland has changed in such a short period of time and I think it's cultural impact is fascinating in many ways. I think you are right in that the current generation missed out on a huge transition in how we live, think, eat and interact but I'm glad my kids will grow up in a secular and more accepting world.

Most of them are still being indoctrinated in schools run by the RCC last I checked. That kind of carry on is not appropriate for a modern democracy.

thomond2006 · 14-01-2021 4:27pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Most of them are still being indoctrinated in schools run by the RCC last I checked. That kind of carry on is not appropriate for a modern democracy.

If they are being indoctrinated, it's not working very well in my experience. There was complete apathy to religion/ceremonies when I was in school. It was just the done thing and you're too young to know any better or question it. It's that 'default' that we need to remove from public schools.

I'm unsure about faith schools in general to be honest. If parents want to educate their children in a faith, that's fine but I don't see it should take away time Monday to Friday from the core subjects. A huge amount of time in my Communion year was taken up by ceremony preparation. It was absolutely crazy in hindsight.

Neil3030 · 14-01-2021 5:09pm

The Rugby Champions' Cup are indoctrinating school kids into doing what now?

(My policy of only reading one post up to get the context might not be working here)

pickarooney · 14-01-2021 5:51pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

If they are being indoctrinated, it's not working very well in my experience. There was complete apathy to religion/ceremonies when I was in school. It was just the done thing and you're too young to know any better or question it.

That would be pretty much the definition of indoctrination:

the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

And, apathetic or not, a lot of those people went ahead and got married in the church end enrolled their own children in Catholic schools, communion and so on. By all means let them do what they want but the state has no place facilitating that through the education system.

stephen_n · 14-01-2021 7:12pm

Buer wrote: »

It's incredible looking back and to think that we saw very similar situations almost 28 years on. I'm sure people in 1992 were looking at footage from from something like the Selma marches in 1965 and wondering how things are the same 27 years on.

With that said, those 1992 riots were far more intense than what we've seen during the BLM movement which are far more composed and civil on the part of the protestors. Over 60 people died in LA (10 shot dead by law enforcement) and the city burned back in 1992 with $1BN worth of damage done and there was massive criticism and blame of the ethnic communities. On this occasion, the conversation was far more concentrated on the actions of law enforcement and conservative elements retaliating.

I don’t know if it was an element of under reporting or the fact it was spread out over a much longer time. There was a fair amount of destruction and looting last summer though. It was I think fairly comparable. I’m not sure much changed after 1992 and I’m not sure much will change after 2020. So we could be here again in 2048 if we are all alive, comparing civil unrest.

thomond2006 · 14-01-2021 7:38pm

pickarooney wrote: »

That would be pretty much the definition of indoctrination:

the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.

And, apathetic or not, a lot of those people went ahead and got married in the church end enrolled their own children in Catholic schools, communion and so on. By all means let them do what they want but the state has no place facilitating that through the education system.

I suppose the point I was trying to make is I don't think it worked in terms of making children into regular mass goers/parishioners. If 10 percent of my classmates from primary school still attended mass every Sunday I would be shocked.

Once the "default" baptism and public Catholic school is no more, I think the RCC will be a minority in Ireland in a generation or two. No religion should be tax exempt either. Freedom of association is one thing but that doesn't include a state subsidy.

stephen_n · 14-01-2021 10:16pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I suppose the point I was trying to make is I don't think it worked in terms of making children into regular mass goers/parishioners. If 10 percent of my classmates from primary school still attended mass every Sunday I would be shocked.

Once the "default" baptism and public Catholic school is no more, I think the RCC will be a minority in Ireland in a generation or two. No religion should be tax exempt either. Freedom of association is one thing but that doesn't include a state subsidy.

They still probably put themselves down as Catholic in the census though.

swiwi_ · 14-01-2021 10:22pm

Nancy Pelosi is 80! Didn’t think she was quite that old.

Zzippy · 14-01-2021 10:35pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Nancy Pelosi is 80! Didn’t think she was quite that old.

She's so old that Jaco was still in college when she was born!

aloooof · 14-01-2021 11:49pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I suppose the point I was trying to make is I don't think it worked in terms of making children into regular mass goers/parishioners. If 10 percent of my classmates from primary school still attended mass every Sunday I would be shocked.

Once the "default" baptism and public Catholic school is no more, I think the RCC will be a minority in Ireland in a generation or two. No religion should be tax exempt either. Freedom of association is one thing but that doesn't include a state subsidy.

I think you're largely spot on thomond; I'd be in a similar boat, but I would guess a decent amount of my friends still put Catholic down on their census form, just on autopilot without any great thought. (edit: stephen_n had this exact point)

As an aside, when you consider that 90% of our schools are still religious and the "baptism barrier" was only removed 2 years ago, there's still a ways to go.

Interested Observer · 15-01-2021 10:09am

I had a non-religious wedding, don't put down any religion on my census, but still might send my kids to the local national school if I think they'll get a decent education there, which far outweighs any notion of 'indoctrination' for me.

Former Former Former · 15-01-2021 12:04pm

Interested Observer wrote: »

I had a non-religious wedding, don't put down any religion on my census, but still might send my kids to the local national school if I think they'll get a decent education there, which far outweighs any notion of 'indoctrination' for me.

Same as that for me, had a registry office wedding, the kids are not baptised but they go to the local RC school.

When the other kids are "learning" religion, they read or colour or do something constructive. Works out OK.

Many of my friends just keep their kids in religion class so the kids won't feel different or won't miss out on the Communion day. Fair enough but it still enables the bishops to say that the vast majority of parents want their children educated in the Catholic ethos, so it prolongs the issue of extracting these leeches from our society.

Yeah_Right · 15-01-2021 2:15pm

Most of my Irish friends and family (including the wife) wouldn't consider themselves Catholic but most of them would still mark Catholic on the census. A lot of them still cross themselves when they drive past a graveyard or a hearse or an ambulance goes past with the lights on. I guess it shows how well it was drummed into them as kids. Most of the kiwi and aussie guys I know who married Irish girls, got married in a church and their kids have been baptised. In some cases it was to keep parents or grandparents happy but as one of my mates said, its more a cultural thing than a religious thing.

Paul Smeenus · 15-01-2021 2:34pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Most of my Irish friends and family (including the wife) wouldn't consider themselves Catholic but most of them would still mark Catholic on the census. A lot of them still cross themselves when they drive past a graveyard or a hearse or an ambulance goes past with the lights on. I guess it shows how well it was drummed into them as kids. Most of the kiwi and aussie guys I know who married Irish girls, got married in a church and their kids have been baptised. In some cases it was to keep parents or grandparents happy but as one of my mates said, its more a cultural thing than a religious thing.

Would the kids have a big first communion day?

The Inbetween is mine · 15-01-2021 3:10pm

Haven't seen it mentioned, but it seems Angel Cabrera is in a spot of bother... has been arrested in Brazil and charged with, theft, assault, illegal intimidation, amongst others and has been on an interpol red list for quite a while.
I must admit...I'm intrigued!

Yeah_Right · 15-01-2021 3:11pm

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Would the kids have a big first communion day?

I suppose so. Only been to a couple and that was just the afters at someone's house. Don't know if they were big or small compared to other communions. There was a bunch of well dressed adults, loads of rugrats and a heap of food and drink. Then off to the pub to watch the match.

Squidgy Black · 15-01-2021 3:15pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Most of my Irish friends and family (including the wife) wouldn't consider themselves Catholic but most of them would still mark Catholic on the census. A lot of them still cross themselves when they drive past a graveyard or a hearse or an ambulance goes past with the lights on. I guess it shows how well it was drummed into them as kids. Most of the kiwi and aussie guys I know who married Irish girls, got married in a church and their kids have been baptised. In some cases it was to keep parents or grandparents happy but as one of my mates said, its more a cultural thing than a religious thing.

Yeah my immediate family isn't religious in the slightest, but crossing ourselves when an ambulance or a hearse was always something battered into us by our granny as a sign of respect, bit like saying you'd say a prayer or, the aul wans favourite past time, light a candle for someone.

Interested Observer · 15-01-2021 7:08pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Most of my Irish friends and family (including the wife) wouldn't consider themselves Catholic but most of them would still mark Catholic on the census. A lot of them still cross themselves when they drive past a graveyard or a hearse or an ambulance goes past with the lights on. I guess it shows how well it was drummed into them as kids. Most of the kiwi and aussie guys I know who married Irish girls, got married in a church and their kids have been baptised. In some cases it was to keep parents or grandparents happy but as one of my mates said, its more a cultural thing than a religious thing.

This is the case without a doubt. Have been at a few weddings where the bride and/or groom wouldn't give a toss but the parents would still be properly religious Catholics. People take the path of least resistance or do things to appease other people, it's only natural and I don't really blame them.

15-01-2021 7:09pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

A lot of them still cross themselves when they drive past a graveyard or a hearse or an ambulance goes past with the lights on.

This used to be very common but somewhat rare these days in my experience. It's a nice display of sympathy and solidarity and a secular equivalent wouldn't be the worst thing.

Yeah_Right wrote: »

In some cases it was to keep parents or grandparents happy

This categorises all the interactions I and many of my friends have with the church these days, playing along to be polite to the aul wans but completely apathetic to the utter fantasy of it all. I still do the standing and handshaking so as not to be awkward, but the wafers and kneeling are long since gone.

swiwi_ · 15-01-2021 8:21pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Most of my Irish friends and family (including the wife) wouldn't consider themselves Catholic but most of them would still mark Catholic on the census. A lot of them still cross themselves when they drive past a graveyard or a hearse or an ambulance goes past with the lights on. I guess it shows how well it was drummed into them as kids. Most of the kiwi and aussie guys I know who married Irish girls, got married in a church and their kids have been baptised. In some cases it was to keep parents or grandparents happy but as one of my mates said, its more a cultural thing than a religious thing.

My experience of working in Ireland is that the minute ill-health strikes, everyone is very much catholic. But maybe that perception is false. In NZ I think it’s pretty much illegal to ask religious status at the time of hospital admission.

16-01-2021 5:58pm

A friend of mine from NI has been told his company (chemical / agriculture sector) is almost certainly not going to survive the first quarter due to rule of origin restrictions in the brexit deal.

Reminded me of this video:

https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/status/1350411991656095744

The shamelessness of it is staggering. Almost mocking the man.

awec · 18-01-2021 2:05pm

Any of you watched Sons of Anarchy?

Started watching it with the wife and I am really struggling. It's just so... cheesy? The acting is pretty wooden at times, Charlie Hunnam does not convince me that he's a biker, he's so clean and well groomed or something. And there's hardly any swearing!

Yet I always heard how great it was. What am I missing? I think we're about 8 episodes in and I'm about to pull the plug.

Dave_The_Sheep · 18-01-2021 2:07pm

awec wrote: »

Any of you watched Sons of Anarchy?

Started watching it with the wife and I am really struggling. It's just so... cheesy? The acting is pretty wooden at times, Charlie Hunnam does not convince me that he's a biker, he's so clean and well groomed or something. And there's hardly any swearing!

Yet I always heard how great it was. What am I missing? I think we're about 8 episodes in and I'm about to pull the plug.

I stopped around season 3. I realised I just didn't like any of the characters. I mean, they're all assholes. And while a character doesn't have to be 'good' in terms of good/evil to be a good character, there's not really a lot of anything to them other than being assholes.

That and the prolonged stint in Northern Ireland was beyond silly.

awec · 18-01-2021 2:15pm

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I stopped around season 3. I realised I just didn't like any of the characters. I mean, they're all assholes. And while a character doesn't have to be 'good' in terms of good/evil to be a good character, there's not really a lot of anything to them other than being assholes.

You're right actually, they are all the same! Except for Charlie Hunnam's character's wishy-washy good vs evil thing it's just a load of the same.

I genuinely find some of the acting appalling, like it totally takes me out of the immersion. I got irritated when in like the first episode Clay tells one of the other guys to go "hack the police database" or something to get info. Cringe. Lazy writing.

And the way Jax walks really irritates me.

I find the whole thing very unconvincing

Off Topic Thread 5.0

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