Off Topic Thread 5.0

irishbucsfan

I agree that West Wing didn’t age particularly well, but a good way to rewatch it now is with the west wing weekly podcast which goes through it episode by episode and has interviews with cast members and also sometimes real life ex-administration officials to talk about the issues brought up in episodes. Quite an interesting way to do it.

swiwi_

Votes please. What’s more pretentious

1) The West Wing script?
2) Using magniloquent in an Internet forum post?

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

The test audience screenings for the first episode had people raving about Martin Sheen's character and not so much about Sam's so they reoriented the show (and got a much higher budget due to the positivity of the test screenings).

It was a juggernaut by the end of the first season.

The Newsroom was unwatchable guff. Never made it to the end of the first season - tried again in season two and didn't last beyond the second episode.

Heard the last season was better but didn't bother with it.

I didn't get to the end either. There was one point where one of the characters salutes some airline pilot and tells him that our "armed forces have killed Osama bin Laden on your behalf" or something and I almost threw up. Cringe.

Dave_The_Sheep

awec wrote: »

I didn't get to the end either. There was one point where one of the characters salutes some airline pilot and tells him that our "armed forces have killed Osama bin Laden on your behalf" or something and I almost threw up. Cringe.

Easily the single worst episode of the Newsroom, by some distance too.

Threw up in my mouth a little too.

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

Yes the reason Sam left after a few seasons was because he was supposed to be the main star and it didn't work out like that. Josh and Toby were the most entertaining IMO.

I tried to watch the Newsroom, which is Sorkin's other big one at the time, but it's even more OTT on the idealistic America-is-great nonsense. Had to give up on it.

I managed to get through The Newsroom, it was absolute garbage for the most part imo. There are not people on earth who talk the way the characters did in that show.

Former Former Former

Former Former Former wrote: »

The recurring problem with all these American shows is that they're awesome but eventually become a victim of their own success by being flogged to death long after they should have been ended.

I'd say the Sopranos is the only one I can think of that didn't fall into the trap. The Wire is still probably the best show ever but there were times during Season 5 when you're like "ah heeeyor, really?"

30 Rock, Parks and Recreation, Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy, Game of Thrones, all of them would have been far superior if they'd wrapped up a year earlier. House of Cards, The Office, Arrested Development...

And then there's the Simpsons, which just keeps going and going twenty years after it was last funny.

The biggest sudden drop off in quality of any show I can remember was Heroes. Entertaining first season and then became utterly dire.

I disagree on Game of Thrones. It absolutely shouldn't have ended earlier - but the rot set in around season 6 when they ran out of source material.

In hindsight they should have changed show runners / writers before season 6 when the books we're no longer the source. Whilst season 6 was still really enjoyable - the consistency began to wane. Season 7 had some high points but was all over the place and the less said about season 8 the better. I have never seen such a sharp rebuke of an incredibly loved show over one season.

Watching season 8 in real time was almost surreal in that it was such a marked drop in quality and the completion of some key storylines were so mishandled that it would almost make you angry.

Agree on the Wire - I don't think they really had the material for a final season and had to drift into absurdity at times. Some of it was hilarious but not really fitting for the tone of the show up to that point.

Final season of the West Wing was terrific, one of the best in my opinion. The live debate episode was really impressive and Alan Alda added a huge amount to the cast.

A show that's been discussed recently on here which has improved over the last two seasons is the Expanse. I was concerned after season 4 that the move to Amazon was going to diminish it, but season 5 has been amazing.

molloyjh

Yeah I think GOT is one that bucks the trend a little in that it probably needed more time to flesh out the character arcs better. It was all a little rushed in the last 2 seasons. Danys descent specifically felt really sudden, and while it made complete sense, it happened so fast that it took the audience out of it because it just didn't feel right. I'd have no complaints with how the story overall progressed, but it needed to be a bit more natural.

I didn't mind the first season of Newsroom too much, that bin Laden episode aside. It made at least some sort of attempt to address the fact that America isn't perfect. The outburst in the first episode was fairly on the money and the point about news networks having little real interest in truth, facts or accuracy over ratings is one that needed (and still needs) to be driven home with US audiences with a massive bloody hammer. But like a lot of Sorkins stuff, it was very preachy and high horsey. Plus "look how smart my writing is everyone"! The 2 leads at least made it watchable. Season 2 was woeful. Didnt make it past the first few episodes.

jacothelad

Our lying bastard government still continues to con millions of mouth breathers and window licker supporters that they have our welfare at heart. The latest stats show that in the first week in January, in England and Wales, 1370 care home residents died of Covid-19. IN THE FIRST ****ING WEEK!!! ...AND NOT COUNTED IN THE FIGURES. WHAT ABOUT EACH SUBSEQUENT WEEK? They kept that quiet didn't they. Who would like to get their hands around the scrawny neck of that useless, lying, cowardly f&ckdog and full time gob****e Mutt Handoncock? Remember that turd claimed live on T.V. that the Tory Mafia had their 'arms around Care Homes.' Yes, what he actually meant was 'We don't give a flying dog turd about these old folks, just about conning the cretins who elected that putrid blond bag of septic sewage into the highest office in the land.'

100,000 Dead.

Never mind the catastrophic outcomes of leaving the EU.

Surely in the name of Darwin the reality of this bunch of putrid crooks will begin to dawn on the cretins who vote for these pocket-lining thieves. The Test and Don't Bother To Trace Trace scam is still in full swing. There was a meeting of the Public Accounts Committee at which what struck me most was the sheer scale, in numbers and cost, of the mass testing programme planned. “Hundreds of millions” of lateral flow tests have been ordered, Dildo Hardon said, and DHSC expects to spend a whopping £15bn in just four months on testing. MPs were told that 90% of the massive £22bn budget would go on testing, not tracing. And the bulk of the new tests would be lateral flow tests, because PCR capacity is simply inadequate as the money for it (£12,000,000,000) has disappeared into Tory bank accounts. Moreover, 30 of 207 new contracts awarded since November had been done without competitive tender, and most were for mass testing to Tory chums.

Perhaps the most eye-catching revelation of the session came when DHSC second permanent secretary David Williams revealed almost casually that 900 staff from consultants Deloitte are working for Test and Trace, at an average cost of £1,000 a day. That’s nearly a cool one million quid every day being paid out to a private consultancy. Just why NHS staff or civil servants can’t now provide that service remains a mystery to several MPs, including committee chair Meg Hillier.

I’d be surprised if the £900k-a day-to-Deloitte-alone cost is not raised by Keir Starmer in PMQs this week, given his own emphasis on government failures to give taxpayers value for money in the pandemic. This fits with Anneliese Dodds’ wider pledge last week that the National Audit Office would do an annual audit of a Labour government’s spending (perhaps to reassure the public about her more radical fiscal rule suggestions of only balancing the books over a 20 year period but that’s another story). SHE DOESN'T INSPIRE CONFIDENCE. She may be really on top of the brief but she has the public persona of a damp rag. Sadly, in this day and age, public figures need to have personal appeal of some sort to get the votes of the bewildered as well as the sentient.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

The biggest sudden drop off in quality of any show I can remember was Heroes. Entertaining first season and then became utterly dire.

I disagree on Game of Thrones. It absolutely shouldn't have ended earlier - but the rot set in around season 6 when they ran out of source material.

In hindsight they should have changed show runners / writers before season 6 when the books we're no longer the source. Whilst season 6 was still really enjoyable - the consistency began to wane. Season 7 had some high points but was all over the place and the less said about season 8 the better. I have never seen such a sharp rebuke of an incredibly loved show over one season.

Watching season 8 in real time was almost surreal in that it was such a marked drop in quality and the completion of some key storylines were so mishandled that it would almost make you angry.

Agree on the Wire - I don't think they really had the material for a final season and had to drift into absurdity at times. Some of it was hilarious but not really fitting for the tone of the show up to that point.

Final season of the West Wing was terrific, one of the best in my opinion. The live debate episode was really impressive and Alan Alda added a huge amount to the cast.

A show that's been discussed recently on here which has improved over the last two seasons is the Expanse. I was concerned after season 4 that the move to Amazon was going to diminish it, but season 5 has been amazing.

Someone recommended the Expanse to me the other day, said it was good. Will have to give it a try.

jacothelad

swiwi_ wrote: »

Votes please. What’s more pretentious

1) The West Wing script?
2) Using magniloquent in an Internet forum post?

Grandiose, bombastic tautology perchance.........:D:D:D:D:D

awec

I don't think I'll ever be able to re-watch Game of Thrones because I don't think I'd be able to put up with the disappointment of the last season again. They totally ruined that show at the end with absolute laziness and corner cutting.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

A show that's been discussed recently on here which has improved over the last two seasons is the Expanse. I was concerned after season 4 that the move to Amazon was going to diminish it, but season 5 has been amazing.

They have already said next season will be the last also and they have plans in place to wind it up properly. So no being dragged out (even though the book source material actually goes on longer).

thomond2006

awec wrote: »

I don't think I'll ever be able to re-watch Game of Thrones because I don't think I'd be able to put up with the disappointment of the last season again. They totally ruined that show at the end with absolute laziness and corner cutting.

I think many share that view. That show went from the most culturally relevant piece of television in the previous decade to the dustbin in the space of a few weeks.

Tomtom364

Podge_irl wrote: »

They have already said next season will be the last also and they have plans in place to wind it up properly. So no being dragged out (even though the book source material actually goes on longer).

That's the current line and could ring true in the end. Certainly its where the Amazon contract is up to.

However, one of the two writers of the books has hinted that although season 6 would be a satisfying ending, they aren't including the material from the later books in it and it is possible that further seasons could happen in the future.

https://winteriscoming.net/2020/12/15/the-expanse-may-not-end-after-seaosn-6-amazon/

Season 8 made no sense at all and was jarringly bad at times.

The scene where Dany finds out one of her dragons is a zombie and responds by going on a picnic with Jon? Stupid.

Defending a castle from the outside? Stupid.

Not resolving the Azor Ahai prophecy having spent 7 seasons banging on about it? Stupid.

The Night King serving no actual purpose to the story other than generic bad guy? Stupid.

And I wouldn't say that Dany's descent made any sense at all. It was a massive departure played out over a tiny amount of screen time. I didn't buy it whatsoever and whilst she had her motives and a family proclivity for madness it was rushed and inorganic.

I watched this during the first lockdown, a more interesting take on how the show could have been completed:

Paul Smeenus

For me, the series when Tony Soprano went into a coma almost killed my interest in it.

"Look, we're in his subconscious - he's roaming around with a HEAVY BAG. HE IS CARRYING HEAVY BAGGAGE. DO YOU SEE WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE?"

Watching the second series of The Alienist on Netflix. The writing is a bit laboured, and Dakota Fanning has an very efficient empathy bypass constructed around her, but it's been a while since I've been so impressed with how a TV series has been directed. Really enjoying it, despite it's faults.

awec

I also see they've announced that the next season of Peaky Blinders will be the last. Makes sense, it is starting to run out of runway.

FACECUTTR

I thought Sens8 had a great first season then came the nosedive in the second. Only watched 3 or so episodes of that. Something a bit different and quite enjoyable. I think they may have changed director.

Interested Observer

awec wrote: »

I also see they've announced that the next season of Peaky Blinders will be the last. Makes sense, it is starting to run out of runway.

Didn't know that but yeah definitely sounds about right.

molloyjh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Season 8 made no sense at all and was jarringly bad at times.

The scene where Dany finds out one of her dragons is a zombie and responds by going on a picnic with Jon? Stupid.

Defending a castle from the outside? Stupid.

Not resolving the Azor Ahai prophecy having spent 7 seasons banging on about it? Stupid.

The Night King serving no actual purpose to the story other than generic bad guy? Stupid.

And I wouldn't say that Dany's descent made any sense at all. It was a massive departure played out over a tiny amount of screen time. I didn't buy it whatsoever and whilst she had her motives and a family proclivity for madness it was rushed and inorganic.

I watched this during the first lockdown, a more interesting take on how the show could have been completed:

Danys descent made total sense. Her answer to everything all along was destroy it, burn it, kill it. She needed to be talked out of burning cities to the ground by Tyrion at least once before (when the slavers attacked at the end of season 6). She didn't just kill all of her enemies before that, she did so really viciously at times. Remember her locking 2 people who betrayed her into an empty vault wondering which would end up feeding on which before the end? She was a very violent person. She needed advisors who would check her worst impulses (something Tyrion referenced at one point) because she knew she would become her father without them.

So when she ended up in what was effectively a foreign land where she was an outsider, found a genuine and honest threat to her taking the throne and lost everyone she loved, her worst impulses became impossible to control. She ended up doing what she had always threatened of doing and became what she always knew she could become. Her father. It just happened so fast that it didn't feel right.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Danys descent made total sense. Her answer to everything all along was destroy it, burn it, kill it. She needed to be talked out of burning cities to the ground by Tyrion at least once before (when the slavers attacked at the end of season 6). She didn't just kill all of her enemies before that, she did so really viciously at times. Remember her locking 2 people who betrayed her into an empty vault wondering which would end up feeding on which before the end? She was a very violent person. She needed advisors who would check her worst impulses (something Tyrion referenced at one point) because she knew she would become her father without them.

So when she ended up in what was effectively a foreign land where she was an outsider, found a genuine and honest threat to her taking the throne and lost everyone she loved, her worst impulses became impossible to control. She ended up doing what she had always threatened of doing and became what she always knew she could become. Her father. It just happened so fast that it didn't feel right.

I don't have an issue with her character ending up there - I just don't think it made any sense the way it happened. Sure - she had demonstrated violence, even cruelty before, but exclusively against people who for the most part deserved it. Jon similarly had show violence and a willingness to execute people, even children - something Dany had avoided entirely, she was generally protective of women and children - 'innocents'.

Her turn from violent but just to genocidal and unhinged felt forced and completely unrealistic to me. She couldn't stomach the fighting pits - and then suddenly is burning families alive?

molloyjh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't have an issue with her character ending up there - I just don't think it made any sense the way it happened. Sure - she had demonstrated violence, even cruelty before, but exclusively against people who for the most part deserved it. Jon similarly had show violence and a willingness to execute people, even children - something Dany had avoided entirely, she was generally protective of women and children - 'innocents'.

Her turn from violent but just to genocidal and unhinged felt forced and completely unrealistic to me. She couldn't stomach the fighting pits - and then suddenly is burning families alive?

I think we're essentially saying the same thing. That the way they developed her character from hero to villain simply didn't work.

Its worth noting that at no time did Dany ever realistically find herself in a position where she could kill innocents until the end of season 6, where she decided to burn an entire city to the ground. She'd have killed a lot of innocents there had Tyrion not talked her out of it. A lot of her actions prior to season 7 seem justified because her opponents were oppressors who refused to give in. The dynamics in Westeros however were vastly different. They were far more complex and she was out of her depth there in many ways.

When did Jon kill innocents? I dont recall him ever doing that...

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

I think we're essentially saying the same thing. That the way they developed her character from hero to villain simply didn't work.

Its worth noting that at no time did Dany ever realistically find herself in a position where she could kill innocents until the end of season 6, where she decided to burn an entire city to the ground. She'd have killed a lot of innocents there had Tyrion not talked her out of it. A lot of her actions prior to season 7 seem justified because her opponents were oppressors who refused to give in. The dynamics in Westeros however were vastly different. They were far more complex and she was out of her depth there in many ways.

When did Jon kill innocents? I dont recall him ever doing that...

I don't think Jon killed anyone innocent - I said he killed (executed) a child (Oliver).

As for Dany - I may be misremembering but I thought she wanted to burn down the red keep as opposed to kings landing. She also agreed not to do it, at great expense to her forces.

But yeah - I think we're saying the same thing, the various catalysts for her ultimate madness were played out and maybe she just wasn't a sufficiently talented actor to portray the transition. For the most part though - I think there was a substantial amount of needed exposition missing before she departed to madness.

Podge_irl

Her descent to madness was not only plausible, but I would say fairly obvious. Which makes how bloody cackhanded they did the whole thing all the more annoying. Has to be one of the first examples of the studio offering more episodes and the showrunners asking for fewer then rushing through their story at breakneck pace.

Basically, the showrunners were utterly useless once they got past the books.

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Basically, the showrunners were utterly useless once they got past the books.

Yeah I think it's really unfortunate. Their ability to adapt the source material was incredible and they're clearly gifted but you get the sense the fan base really turned on them after season 8.

Was there a suspicion that they had something else lined up and wanted shot?

On a separate note - final hours of Trump, everyone sticking to their guns as to whether he will be criminally prosecuted this year?

I think the riots may have changed things personally, this tweet in particular from earlier today could well land him in hot water.

thomond2006

The Hound was the only character with a satisfactory ending to his arc, even though it was predictable. The rest was just awful.

There's so much wrong with the final season but two things stand out. The army of the dead becoming story filler (in a rushed season!) was horrendous. Varys' demise, after being pushed as the smartest of them all for seven seasons, was insulting.

Podge_irl

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah I think it's really unfortunate. Their ability to adapt the source material was incredible and they're clearly gifted but you get the sense the fan base really turned on them after season 8.

Was there a suspicion that they had something else lined up and wanted shot?

On a separate note - final hours of Trump, everyone sticking to their guns as to whether he will be criminally prosecuted this year?

I think the riots may have changed things personally, this tweet in particular from earlier today could well land him in hot water.

They had a deal with Disney to make some Star Wars or something I think? Though that fell through which is hilarious. They trashed their reputation something fierce anyway.

I don't think he will be criminally prosecuted though I wouldn't rule it out. It will be an absolute mess either way.

errlloyd

I don't think there is any guarantee that GRR Martin was gonna do a better job than HBO managed. I saw a pretty decent twitter thread that described how his approach to story creation was pretty inevitably going to create a poor ending. Basically, the compelling nature of his story is that anything can happen - but that is because he didn't actually plan what was going to happen. As his story diverged characters could develop their own traits in a way that was satisfying. But he didn't have a way to pull those characters back together for a climax where they could all "actualise" in a consistent manner.

Podge_irl

errlloyd wrote: »

I don't think there is any guarantee that GRR Martin was gonna do a better job than HBO managed. I saw a pretty decent twitter thread that described how his approach to story creation was pretty inevitably going to create a poor ending. Basically, the compelling nature of his story is that anything can happen - but that is because he didn't actually plan what was going to happen. As his story diverged characters could develop their own traits in a way that was satisfying. But he didn't have a way to pull those characters back together for a climax where they could all "actualise" in a consistent manner.

Its undoubtedly part of why he has stopped putting books out basically. He has tied himself in knots. I mean, he had planned for a 5(?) year time jump at one point. That is a huge thing to abandon.

Its from the Lost school of writing and it always ends up biting you in the ass.

Dave_The_Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Hound was the only character with a satisfactory ending to his arc, even though it was predictable. The rest was just awful.

There's so much wrong with the final season but two things stand out. The army of the dead becoming story filler (in a rushed season!) was horrendous. Varys' demise, after being pushed as the smartest of them all for seven seasons, was insulting.

The death of Rhaegal is up there as well, as well as their "Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet" reasoning behind it. Delighted those two <expletive deleted> lost their shot at Star Wars as a result.