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Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

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Comments

  • #1472
    Locotastic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Locotastic


    Summer2020 wrote: »
    If it was safe to reopen for special needs children then how is it not safe to allow all children back?

    It comes down to priorities I'd imagine, and some kids need it more than other. Online would not be suitable for many of these children's needs.


  • #1473
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Narrowing down an entire statement to half a sentence would be the definition of cherry-picking?

    No, I'm afraid that quote wasn't cherry picking. And that's not what cherry picking means. The quote didn't misrepresent the statement.


  • #1474
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    WicklaBlaa wrote: »
    Calling these organisations hypocritical is not a good look.

    It is not essential that they go to their offices to work unlike other jobs and professions, including healthcare, certain retail, etc.

    There benefits of bringing teachers and students into school must be weighed up against the risks. Students ultimately lose out not being in the classroom. The same cannot be said for all employees with AsIAm who can advocate from home.

    AsIAm provide a variety of services, some of which include one to one supports. They have withdrawn these supports.


  • #1475
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    No, I'm afraid that quote wasn't cherry picking. And that's not what cherry picking means. The quote didn't misrepresent the statement.

    ok, let's go with this and see where we end up.

    What do you call quoting half a sentence from a statement and claiming it represents the entire statement?


  • #1476
    Samsonsmasher
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 610 ✭✭✭Samsonsmasher


    Summer2020 wrote: »
    If they say it is safe then it’s safe? Because the govt have been such a shining beacon of factual information during this whole pandemic. Come off it will you. The virus has infected every corner of the country with some counties having 1 in 10 people positive or a close contact right now. If it was safe to reopen for special needs children then how is it not safe to allow all children back?
    Use your own brain and stop listening to the Gospel according to Norma Foley.

    If it's safe for Aldi Lidl and Tesco workers to work in busy supermarkets why isn't it safe for teachers to go back to school?
    What an absolute joke!
    The death rate nationally is 0.03%


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  • #1477
    khalessi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,216 ✭✭✭khalessi


    Samsonsmasher wrote: »
    If it's safe for Aldi Lidl and Tesco workers to work in busy supermarkets why isn't it safe for teachers to go back to school?
    What an absolute joke!
    The death rate nationally is 0.03%

    Yes high ceilings, big spaces, sd, can limit numbers in store, and people dont stay 5 hours

    PLease report to thread 1 where this was hashed out


  • #1478
    penny piper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭penny piper


    Samsonsmasher wrote: »
    If it's safe for Aldi Lidl and Tesco workers to work in busy supermarkets why isn't it safe for teachers to go back to school?
    What an absolute joke!
    The death rate nationally is 0.03%


    So why can't people work in an office or anywhere else then?


  • #1479
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    Samsonsmasher wrote: »
    If it's safe for Aldi Lidl and Tesco workers to work in busy supermarkets why isn't it safe for teachers to go back to school?
    What an absolute joke!
    The death rate nationally is 0.03%

    It's an absolute joke that you haven't seen this false equivalency laid to bed time and time again absolutely everywhere online.


  • #1480
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    ok, let's go with this and see where we end up.

    What do you call quoting half a sentence from a statement and claiming it represents the entire statement?

    I'll tell you what, look up the statement, look up what 'cherry picking' means and come back showing how my quote was cherry picking.

    (But you won't because it wasn't)


  • #1481
    Locotastic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Locotastic


    penny piper wrote: »
    So why can't people work in an office or anywhere else then?

    They are.


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  • #1482
    jrosen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭jrosen


    penny piper wrote: »
    So why can't people work in an office or anywhere else then?

    Generally because they can do their job from home.

    There are plenty of people who are in work every day because they cant adequately do their job from home.
    While I appreciate many teachers are working from home even teachers themselves have said remote learning is no substitute for in class.

    I dint support schools returning now though as I think community numbers are too high.


  • #1483
    daheff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,032 ✭✭✭daheff


    Summer2020 wrote: »
    If they say it is safe then it’s safe? .

    Yes. Government decide this either directly or via another agency they put in place to decide this (in this case health and safety authority). - NPHET advise the government only (as the October lvl 5 debacle showed).

    Unless the HSA come out and explicitly stated it is unsafe to go to work in schools then it's deemed to be safe.


  • #1484
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,797 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    I'll tell you what, look up the statement, look up what 'cherry picking' means and come back showing how my quote was cherry picking.

    (But you won't because it wasn't)

    Cambridge Dictionary

    "To choose only the best or most suitable from a group of people or things."

    Choose- you picked the quote

    Most suitable- you picked a half sentence from a statement to best represent your point of view

    Group of things- there were sentences in the statement, and indeed there were other statements

    I've done my best now to help, so trot on


  • #1485
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    daheff wrote: »
    Yes. Government decide this either directly or via another agency they put in place to decide this (in this case health and safety authority). - NPHET advise the government only (as the October lvl 5 debacle showed).

    Unless the HSA come out and explicitly stated it is unsafe to go to work in schools then it's deemed to be safe.

    Agreed...but if the HSE were not manipulating close contact and infection rates in schools then NPHET could have given more accurate advice.


  • #1486
    Van.Bosch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,003 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    Genuine question for both sides - not looking to start an argument about whether schools should reopen or not but when do you think the government will reopen schools?

    Impossible to tell obviously as it depends on various factors but just curious if there is a level of daily cases or ICU level you think will prompt their reopening?


  • #1487
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    thomasdylan wrote: »
    I'll tell you what, look up the statement, look up what 'cherry picking' means and come back showing how my quote was cherry picking.

    (But you won't because it wasn't)

    You lost this argument several posts back. Be nice if you could move on.


  • #1488
    daheff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,032 ✭✭✭daheff


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    Genuine question for both sides - not looking to start an argument about whether schools should reopen or not but when do you think the government will reopen schools?

    Impossible to tell obviously as it depends on various factors but just curious if there is a level of daily cases or ICU level you think will prompt their reopening?

    Most likely after Feb mid term break I'd guess.


  • #1489
    km79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,440 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    Genuine question for both sides - not looking to start an argument about whether schools should reopen or not but when do you think the government will reopen schools?

    Impossible to tell obviously as it depends on various factors but just curious if there is a level of daily cases or ICU level you think will prompt their reopening?

    If it does indeed depend on icu numbers etc and not politics then after the mid term


  • #1490
    hesaidshesaid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 289 ✭✭hesaidshesaid


    daheff wrote: »
    Have you proof of that accusation? If you do, then I'd advise you to go to the papers. You'll bring down the government over something like that.

    If you don't, then you are just trying to spread false news and should cease doing so.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1031/1175008-schools-covid/

    ''At Thursday's HSE briefing, public health consultant Dr Abigail Collins acknowledged something that some school staff and parents have suspected of late: that when it comes to testing in schools, and who is or isn't regarded as a close contact, different rules apply.

    Many teachers and others are greatly concerned that cases of Covid-19 are being missed as a result of a too-narrow measuring of what constitutes a class contact in a school setting. They worry that this could be endangering students and staff.

    They are right about different rules applying. Dr Collins freely acknowledged on Thursday that public health officials are being deliberately conservative when it comes to who is deemed a close contact in a school setting.''


  • #1491
    Stateofyou
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭Stateofyou


    jrosen wrote: »
    Generally because they can do their job from home.

    There are plenty of people who are in work every day because they cant adequately do their job from home.
    While I appreciate many teachers are working from home even teachers themselves have said remote learning is no substitute for in class.

    I dint support schools returning now though as I think community numbers are too high.

    Generally, teachers can do their job from home too. It's not ideal, it's not the very best learning environment, and kids miss out on the social side of things too. However in the middle of a pandemic in which our covid stats are the worst in the world and our hospitals overwhelmed it's what we need to do for right now.
    The reality is it isn't safe for anyone right now, and comparing teachers with HCW's and supermarket workers are false equivalencies. Aka comparing apples and oranges.


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  • #1492
    thomasdylan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Stateofyou wrote: »
    You lost this argument several posts back. Be nice if you could move on.

    I don't think I have. But maybe I'm wrong. I have distracted from ASTIs statement:



    "The ASTI is aware that there is a considerable amount of incorrect information circulating regarding the announcement by the Minister for Education and Skills regarding the postponement of the Leaving Certificate examinations.

    As stated on 10th April, the ASTI welcomes in principle the announcement that the Leaving Cert exams will go ahead this year.

    ASTI Standing Committee met remotely on 10th April and made an initial assessment of the Minister’s announcement. It is intended that members will be consulted in the coming days through the ASTI’s representative structure.

    The ASTI has a number of serious concerns about elements of the announcement and will be seeking clarifications in relation to these.

    For the record, contrary to misinformation that is circulating, no teacher will be required to do anything. The proposal from the Department of Education and Skills cannot be enforced."


  • #1493
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    I would not like to see schools remaining closed as long as before. I doubt many teachers would. Teaching online is a nightmare and insanely time consuming

    What I’d love and feel would be sensible would be:
    1. Absolutely no schools open until contact tracing is back in place and full testing of close contacts has resumed.
    2: Regional reopening. Once the case rates drop to a particular 14 day incidence rate and the hospitals in the area are down to manageable levels then schools in that region open


  • #1494
    BonsaiKitten
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,798 ✭✭✭BonsaiKitten


    Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »
    Thanks for that, what about projects and practical exams, I'm assuming practical exams have to be done before june as practical teachers have to be on site in case something goes wrong? and not many students currently have spot welders and lathes? It's years since I did my leaving but is there enough padding time wise in a normal year to allow it assuming LC back in 2 weeks?

    Yeah that would worry me too. I'm sure teachers are doing their best to reshuffle their coursework though because it's definitely not something that can be done from home, afair the teacher has to sign off that it's the students own work. Still doesn't mean that the current remote days aren't days worked though.


  • #1495
    delly
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 7,775 Mod ✭✭✭✭delly


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    Genuine question for both sides - not looking to start an argument about whether schools should reopen or not but when do you think the government will reopen schools?

    Impossible to tell obviously as it depends on various factors but just curious if there is a level of daily cases or ICU level you think will prompt their reopening?
    Very difficult to predict tbh. Schools continued during the second peak, so that was 1200, 1300 or so. I'd say if you get numbers of a similar level, the decision might be made to open. But, there are other factors, such as close contact tracing, hospital capacity.

    Overall though, the seal has been broken in terms of teachers taking back some control and the government are on the back foot with Norma's credibility.

    My prediction would be after February mid term.


  • #1496
    jrosen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭jrosen


    The uncertainty around the UK variant wont be helping. Getting to grips with covid has taken so much time and global data. Given the UK variant is more transmissible it puts any school opening in jeopardy.
    I want schools open as much as most but we also need to be sensible. Right now numbers are too high but for me whats equally concerning is seeing just how busy it is out and about. We need people to be more compliant.


  • #1497
    Str8outtaWuhan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 968 ✭✭✭Str8outtaWuhan


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    I would not like to see schools remaining closed as long as before. I doubt many teachers would. Teaching online is a nightmare and insanely time consuming

    What I’d love and feel would be sensible would be:
    1. Absolutely no schools open until contact tracing is back in place and full testing of close contacts has resumed.
    2: Regional reopening. Once the case rates drop to a particular 14 day incidence rate and the hospitals in the area are down to manageable levels then schools in that region open

    That would leave one set of students have access to School based teaching which is considered by many to be far superior to remote teaching. How could different cohorts set the same exams under the same conditions if one cohort had such an advantage


  • #1498
    wirelessdude01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,441 ✭✭✭wirelessdude01


    Van.Bosch wrote: »
    Genuine question for both sides - not looking to start an argument about whether schools should reopen or not but when do you think the government will reopen schools?

    Impossible to tell obviously as it depends on various factors but just curious if there is a level of daily cases or ICU level you think will prompt their reopening?

    No one knows.


  • #1499
    daheff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,032 ✭✭✭daheff


    hesaidshesaid wrote: »
    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1031/1175008-schools-covid/

    ''At Thursday's HSE briefing, public health consultant Dr Abigail Collins acknowledged something that some school staff and parents have suspected of late: that when it comes to testing in schools, and who is or isn't regarded as a close contact, different rules apply.

    Many teachers and others are greatly concerned that cases of Covid-19 are being missed as a result of a too-narrow measuring of what constitutes a class contact in a school setting. They worry that this could be endangering students and staff.

    They are right about different rules applying. Dr Collins freely acknowledged on Thursday that public health officials are being deliberately conservative when it comes to who is deemed a close contact in a school setting.''

    That's not the same as saying that the HSE is deliberately trying to massage the figures to suit a certain outcome (as is being strongly incinuated).

    HSE have set criteria for different situations
    ...like how people can go into shops for food, but not for non essentials.

    How they see close contacts in different situations is dependent on the situation.

    I don't agree with this differentiation btw, but they are the paid for experts in their field, working in the ultimate best interests of society....so I am accepting of their decision.


  • #1500
    combat14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭combat14


    if its safe for special needs students its safe for everyone why not send all the students back in tomorrow what could possibly go wrong


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  • #1501
    Locotastic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Locotastic


    combat14 wrote: »
    if its safe for special needs students its safe for everyone why not send all the students back in tomorrow what could possibly go wrong

    Might actually be what happens given the arguments being put forward. I hope not, if current progress continues then Feb midterm will be soon enough.


This discussion has been closed.
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