Schools closed until March/April? (part 4) **Mod warning in OP 22/01**

km79

TTLF wrote: »

That rumour of the 22nd is interesting.

They once again want to bring in 6th years by February 1st, and I know once again, that there's going to be complete backlash from this. If we're still on the 2000-3000+ cases a day trend by then I will not be going in at my own expense, my health is my wealth, not some fecky exam. :pac:

Lets see how this all plays out...

Hi TTLF

I would be interested to hear from an actual LC student first hand how you think remote learning is going this time around in your school . Be it good or bad !
Would be good to get a first hand account rather than some of the conjecture we are being treated to here

wirelessdude01

E36Ross wrote: »

More rumours from Buzz.ie :rolleyes:

https://www.buzz.ie/news/schools-re-opening-could-be-pushed-back-to-february-22nd-sources-say-412609

"Meetings conducted at the Department of Health this week settled on a preliminary date of February 22, for the return of all children to school."


I really can't understand why they can't publish clear messages rather than everything half arsed leaking through the media.

Manipulation of holidays. She can go do one. If she wants manipulation of holidays then tell us to stop remote/online and be done with it. Such rubbish. There will be a further attempt of a sting in the tail from Norma yet.

Stateofyou

Can anyone post up the link or the verbiage of the DES communication regarding the return of SET students please? I know it was posted here but no way will I find it (can't remember who posted it) and having trouble finding it online.

khalessi

Stateofyou wrote: »

Can anyone post up the link or the verbiage of the DES communication regarding the return of SET students please? I know it was posted here but no way will I find it (can't remember who posted it) and having trouble finding it online.

Is about the return of students with additional needs (Autism, Down Syndrome, blindness, hard of heairng etc?) If they dont go in, dont get online as SET teacher in school.



If so the idea if it goes ahead is they return thursday.

All SET in mainstream and special schools in THursday

Kids receiveing LS for Maths English return to their classes. get work from teachers basicall no LS support for them

If SET teacher in school gets sick mainstream teacher replaces them and a sub takes over mainstream class online.

khalessi

Stateofyou wrote: »

Can anyone post up the link or the verbiage of the DES communication regarding the return of SET students please? I know it was posted here but no way will I find it (can't remember who posted it) and having trouble finding it online.

Thing is, in mainstream always about inclusion, so these kids think they afe going back to school, but school empty and their friends not there. THey are given a new routine with an unfamiliar teacher.

Oh yeah and no decision from FORSA till Tuesday

MM still has to sign off on this and CMO saying it is a grave situation stay home at the minute

INTO webinar telling us schools safe tomorrow 330

Necro

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Intra and inter union discord is entirely due to such disfunctional unions, and that many members abhor the position of the unions that represents them. They have no need of any machinations from Minister Foley to create such conflict. Some teachers probably genuinely do feel it is the cause, so wedded are they to the distorted thinking and sense of specialness distinct from the rest of the working population.

Mod:

Absolutely no need for the last line other than to flame teachers. You have received one yellow already, improve your posting style or your access to post in this thread will be removed.

I have dished out several cards for people attacking the poster and not the post in the last few minutes - cop on and post in a civil manner or your posting access will be removed.

Icyseanfitz

So the rumor is the 22nd for all school return..... A Friday, you couldn't make this **** up.

wirelessdude01

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

So the rumor is the 22nd for all school return..... A Friday, you couldn't make this **** up.

22nd is the Monday after midterm.

Str8outtaWuhan

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

22nd is the Monday after midterm.

that gives 5 weeks til easter,
8 weeks after easter til summer hols

Do secondary teachers on here think they can complete course, get a mock done and revision in 13th weeks?

Icyseanfitz

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

22nd is the Monday after midterm.

Sorry i assumed next week, wouldn't surprise me

km79

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

that gives 5 weeks til easter,
8 weeks after easter til summer hols

Do secondary teachers on here think they can complete course, get a mock done and revision in 13th weeks?

Mocks won’t go ahead

Murple

Natterjack from Kerry wrote: »

Why are you bringing four of your family into the school building with you ?

I think the point is, where this virus is concerned, that when you are mixing with others, you are by default mixing with those they live with. This is particularly the case with children who would be highly likely to be in close contact with everyone they live with.

am_zarathustra

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

that gives 5 weeks til easter,
8 weeks after easter til summer hols

Do secondary teachers on here think they can complete course, get a mock done and revision in 13th weeks?

I'm assuming papers will be altered further, I've cut a couple of things out of my courses already (2 leaving cert subjects). It's doable, it'll be very tight but everything will be bell curved as usual, so as long as papers are altered quickly, staff are told and can change their plans I don't see a huge problem. If I was predicting grades this year they would be a damn sight more sketchy than last year, I'd be massively uncomfortable doing it.

BonsaiKitten

irishproduce wrote: »

Unfortunately there isn't very much "teaching" of new material going on. It's rehashing content they children have been over already.
If they were in school the teacher would be explaining new content and taking the children through new information that hasn't been covered yet.
It is likely a lot of parents, particularly of children who may have been young when starting, will seek to keep the child back when sept comes around.
This nonsense is irreversible and children are losing out.

Speak for yourself there, my class are cracking on and covering new content. Was the same in the last lockdown.

Try a bigger spoon next time.

khalessi

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Speak for yourself there, my class are cracking on and covering new content. Was the same in the last lockdown.

Try a bigger spoon next time.

Same with mine, same with the mainstream classes, curriculum gotta get covered

BonsaiKitten

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

that gives 5 weeks til easter,
8 weeks after easter til summer hols

Do secondary teachers on here think they can complete course, get a mock done and revision in 13th weeks?

But they're not doing it in 13 weeks are they? Every secondary I know is teaching the kids to timetable online. I'm sure they're under a lot of pressure and exams should reflect that but it's not like no learning at all is happening.

Str8outtaWuhan

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

But they're not doing it in 13 weeks are they? Every secondary I know is teaching the kids to timetable online. I'm sure they're under a lot of pressure and exams should reflect that but it's not like no learning at all is happening.

did the dept release a statement saying that this current remote learning counted towards teachers days?

i remember there was a right kerfuffle last yr when minister joe said that remote learning didn't count as class contact time, i can't find anything on dept website about how current online teaching is been counted?

SusanC10

Both our kids (Primary and Secondary) are covering new material in the last week.
Very pleased with both schools tbf.

Feb 22nd makes sense to aim for given the way things are with the Virus currently.

tigger123

Where is the Feb 22nd date coming from? Is it a WhatsApp job?

wirelessdude01

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

that gives 5 weeks til easter,
8 weeks after easter til summer hols

Do secondary teachers on here think they can complete course, get a mock done and revision in 13th weeks?

LC is back on Feb 1st is the word in the street.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

did the dept release a statement saying that this current remote learning counted towards teachers days?

i remember there was a right kerfuffle last yr when minister joe said that remote learning didn't count as class contact time, i can't find anything on dept website about how current online teaching is been counted?

They're days worked so they'd clearly count.

The only thing McHugh asked last time was that teachers would come in, on a voluntary, basis to prepare students for the delayed LC, last July.

McHugh caved to media/parent/student pressure before that happened.

The critics of unions/teachers rarely acknowledge teachers were willing to do what was necessary to help students in advance of exams.

The closure is often referred to as a "lost" 7/8 weeks but students were provided for online during this period.

There is apparent anecdotal evidence that teachers sat on their backsides doing nothing, but it depends on who's telling the anecdote. Few on here will tell their tall tales.

theballz

Not safe to open schools in February. Mid March earliest I’d say

BonsaiKitten

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

did the dept release a statement saying that this current remote learning counted towards teachers days?

i remember there was a right kerfuffle last yr when minister joe said that remote learning didn't count as class contact time, i can't find anything on dept website about how current online teaching is been counted?

Given that they've put out guidance - woolly though it might be - on remote learning they'd be on shaky ground with that one. The INTO might be useless but ASTI certainly wouldn't stand for that. Teachers are working, even if students aren't breathing all over them as Minister Foley would like.

Is this not separate from the original point though? You say they'd have 13 weeks to finish a course. My point is that every secondary seems to be cracking through content, so they've longer than 13 weeks to get through it. No doubt they're tight for time.

Mrsmum

SusanC10 wrote: »

Both our kids (Primary and Secondary) are covering new material in the last week.
Very pleased with both schools tbf.

Feb 22nd makes sense to aim for given the way things are with the Virus currently.

Yes I am mostly happy too. But in some subjects I think maybe it is the pupils themselves that are covering the new material. Example there is an English LC book called Language Lessons and the assigned work (no live classes so far) has been to read thirty pages before next class and do all the assignments therein. The assignments are all composing speeches, essays, newspaper articles. Quite frankly a journalist (without any other subjects on his plate) couldn't keep up with it. One night last week I had to pull my son away from it at midnight. He sent in what he had done and she told him he hadn't completed his homework. The workload from other subjects is also very heavy. I don't know if this is the norm or if there is a crazy rush to finish the course.

Ray Donovan

Mrsmum wrote: »

Yes I am mostly happy too. But in some subjects I think maybe it is the pupils themselves that are covering the new material. Example there is an English LC book called Language Lessons and the assigned work (no live classes so far) has been to read thirty pages before next class and do all the assignments therein. The assignments are all composing speaches, essays, newspaper articles. Quite frankly a journalist (without any other subjects on his plate) couldn't keep up with it. One night last week I had to pull my son away from it at midnight. He sent in what he had done and she told him he hadn't completed his homework. The workload from other subjects is also very heavy. I don't know if this is the norm or if there is a crazy rush to finish the course.

Id say a lot of teachers are feeling the pressure of remote learning expectation (see the ridiculous RTE prime time report from the private school as an example) and resultantly are piling on the work.

Im primary 4th class myself and Id be happy of they did a couple of hours a day.

Stateofyou

So, anyone think that the DES/NF will come up with an alternative plan if the return to schools is a non-runner next week? A solid plan and guidance and funding for SN's children? Or are all the eggs in one basket, again.

jimmytwotimes 2013

thomasdylan wrote: »

“no teacher will be required to do anything” was the quote from the ASTI back then.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-30994049.html

Wanna do a few pages of cherry picking quotes or you wanna recognise that teachers were going to support their students in July?

I find this place highly entertaining. You'd swear we had lined up a few students and shot them the way people whinge on here.

Can guess who's posted now without even reading the poster's name. Highly entertaining stuff

km79

Stateofyou wrote: »

So, anyone think that the DES/NF will come up with an alternative plan if the return to schools is a non-runner next week? A solid plan and guidance and funding for SN's children? Or are all the eggs in one basket, again.

No !
They had nearly a year to come up with anything resembling a remote /blended learning plan and did nothing

Str8outtaWuhan

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Given that they've put out guidance - woolly though it might be - on remote learning they'd be on shaky ground with that one. The INTO might be useless but ASTI certainly wouldn't stand for that. Teachers are working, even if students aren't breathing all over them as Minister Foley would like.

Is this not separate from the original point though? You say they'd have 13 weeks to finish a course. My point is that every secondary seems to be cracking through content, so they've longer than 13 weeks to get through it. No doubt they're tight for time.

Thanks for that, what about projects and practical exams, I'm assuming practical exams have to be done before june as practical teachers have to be on site in case something goes wrong? and not many students currently have spot welders and lathes? It's years since I did my leaving but is there enough padding time wise in a normal year to allow it assuming LC back in 2 weeks?

downthemiddle

Letter to the Minister and NPHET from Special School Principals.


To whom it may concern,
I hope this email finds you well and safe in these extremely distressing times. I am contacting you again as it seems that the Minister for Education and Skills has once again made a PR move, with no practical substance behind it, when she announced that special schools and special classes would re-open this Thursday, the 21st of January. This action was taken without consultation with school leaders, Boards of Management, school staff or the representative unions. It seems the only people who were consulted where advocacy groups - AsIAm, Down Syndrome Ireland and Inclusion Ireland, who are all allowing their own staff to work from home, while hypocritically insisting that school staff and the children that they claim to represent (many of whom have health conditions which make them more vulnerable to Covid-19) put themselves in harm's way during a time when Ireland has the worst Covid-19 statistics in the world.
Schools are workplaces and therefore we have to provide health and safety standards to all of our staff. School staff have the legal right to be safe at work and right now it is not safe anywhere in Ireland, not in the community or in the schools. The clear message is to stay at home and stay safe. I understand how difficult this is on the children with special educational needs and their families, but the best thing we can all do right now is stay home, stay safe and come back together in a few weeks when the communities and therefore the schools are safer. I have taken legal advice on this issue and it has been made clear to me that as I signed the same contract as my mainstream colleagues, and I abide by the same terms and conditions as them, I should be afforded the same health and safety protections as them. The vulnerable children I care for should be afforded the same (if not better) health and safety protections as their mainstream counterparts. Should I, or someone in my school (child of staff member) become seriously ill with Covid-19 they would be well advised to take an equality case, and they would likely win. It is a case of when, not if, a special school student or staff member will become ill with Covid-19. There was a confirmed case in every special school in Northern Ireland by November, and of the 13 autism specific special schools in the country, 11 have had positive cases. Special school staff are also acutely aware of the case of a Special Needs Assistant who worked in a special setting in Limerick, who was not identified as a close contact when a child in her class tested positive, but has since tested positive herself, and spent Christmas and New Year on a ventilator.
The government's PR announcement without proper engagement or time for planning to re-open special schools has once again caused huge amounts of stresses and anxieties to myself and my staff, and I know that all of the unions for primary school teachers, secondary school teachers, special needs assistants and secretaries are all calling for this decision to be reversed.
Below is a summary of the key points I have been raising over the past few days in support of school staff all being allowed to work from home for a short period of time so that we can all keep ourselves as safe as possible. None of these points have changed in any way since I first contacted you when special schools were due to re-open on Monday the 11th of January, and the government/ DES have had no meaningful engagement with us on how we are to keep ourselves safe in light of these concerns:
The majority of the students in our school require physical prompting and intimate care support - making it impossible to keep even half a metre of distance from them. Staff therefore spend their work days in close proximity with students and social distancing is impossible - even if we were only providing a childcare service, social distancing will still be impossible.
Our students are exempted from wearing masks, and do not have the correct hand hygiene or cough/ sneeze etiquette, despite us asking parents to work on such skills during the first lockdown and us working on them daily since the school re-opened in September due to the level and severities of their disabilities.
As the majority of our students are non-verbal they cannot communicate to us that they feel unwell, which can lead to a delay between a child becoming ill and this illness being identified and the child being quarantined etc.
Our school has more adults per classroom than any mainstream class in Ireland - up to six or seven adults per room. This makes our setting a place where Covid is most likely to spread, as we could have high rates of adult to adult, adult to child, child to adult and child to child transmission.
While no one wants to deny any child their right to an appropriate education, given the current community transmission rates and daily case numbers I do not see how our settings, which caters for some high risk students, could possibly be made safe enough to open.
Why are staff and students in special schools more expendable than their mainstream colleagues and mainstream students?
Why is the health and safety of mainstream children and staff being prioritised over ours?
The majority of staff have school age children, who will be home for the month of January and will require care and home schooling. Other staff have vulnerable family members which will make attendance at work very difficult for them as childcare and other care supports are not easily accessible at this time.
Our students are safer at home right now. We all are. We all need to stay home and try to get Covid-19 back under control. Covid-19 has already affected my family in the first lockdown, and I do not want to see that pain brought into my school community.
A few weeks of remote learning in the midst of the most dangerous part of the pandemic won’t harm anyone’s educational outcomes in the long run, but forcing 6 students (some with vulnerable health conditions) and 6 or 7 staff members into poorly ventilated classrooms in wintery conditions, without the ability for proper social distancing or mask wearing, could lead to a child or a staff member becoming seriously ill with Covid-19.
As a school leader, I have barely slept since these rumours started circulating, out of fear for my own health, my students’ health and my staff’s health. We should be treated equally and fairly, and protected just the same as our mainstream colleagues.
There are so many areas within the school that could lead to transmission despite our best efforts. we share the same toilets and break rooms. we use the same entry and exit doors to the garden etc. We are all doing our best but it's very easy to forget to wipe a handle, key even the kettle. We handle the children's bags which have been on buses used for public transport and their lunches the list is endless.
There seems to be no evidence that I can find that it is safe for special schools and classes to continue and the advice to all other schools is to close is to stay home.
The minister spoke of special schools opening under new protective measure but school management have been no further details given on these measures even though we are supposed to open on Monday.
There was no real consultation with NPHET or the CMO. And it is commonly accepted that a lot of the figures that were given about school cases and statistics yesterday were not true so what are they basing their decision and how can the say that it is safe to return to work.
Nobody wants to be back in this situation again after all the hard work and sacrifice we have put in. We were all happier back in our routine in school but it is too dangerous now. But we need to keep everyone safe and for the now all schools need to stay closed and all staff and children should be treated equal across the education sector.
I have taken legal advice on this issue and it has been made clear to me that as I signed the same contract as my mainstream colleagues, and I abide by the same terms and conditions as them, I should be afforded the same health and safety protections as them. The vulnerable children I care for should be afforded the same (if not better) health and safety protections as their mainstream counterparts. Should I, or someone in my school (child of staff member) become seriously ill with Covid-19 they would be well advised to take an equality case, and they would likely win. It is a case of when, not if, a special school student or staff member will become ill with Covid-19. There was a confirmed case in every special school in Northern Ireland by November, and of the 13 autism specific special schools in the country, 11 have had positive cases. Special school staff are also acutely aware of the case of a Special Needs Assistant who worked in a special setting in Limerick, who was not identified as a close contact when a child in her class tested positive, but has since tested positive herself, and spent Christmas and New Year on a ventilator in ICU.
It is now dangerous for us to work and for our students to go to school. This is not an opinion; it is a fact. A fact given by every medical professional, and the World Health Organisation (WHO). We hear our own ministers repeat it: The only way to stay safe is to stay home. And yet we are expected to go to work.
As disappointed as that makes me, there is something that enrages me more; the emotional blackmail that is being thrown our way for daring to finally cry mercy. On Friday evening at 7.45pm after a busy week of doing our utmost to safely and meaningfully engage with our students, we hear news that we will be expected back in school buildings next week. We know the families of children with significant special needs are struggling; we know them better than most. We see their faces, hear the strain in their voices. We do not need to be told that the stress of not knowing whether their child will be in school next week or not is unbearable, we find it unbearable too. How clever the Department of Education and Skills must have thought they were, to try to spin it as “If only the teachers and SNAs would agree to coming back, these families would have the answers they so desperately need”. But this is not the case. School is for education, and education can and should be provided in a safe manner and remotely at the moment. If these families need social care supports, respite, nursing supports at home etc then these systems need to be looked at, and in particular the cutbacks that all of the services have been subject to under years of Fine Gael and Fianna Fail governments need to be looked at. Special schools cannot and must not re-open because parents need a break (or see schools as respite) when this break could (and will if this reckless plan proceeds), cause a student or staff member to become seriously ill during the most deadly period of this pandemic to date.
We know these children and families are struggling at home. We know it is an unthinkable ask. However, is it more unthinkable to want to avoid a life-threatening illness? I cannot abide the thought a child in my class struggling at home, but neither can I abide looking at my close family and wondering who would end up in the most peril should I bring the virus home.
The numbers of cases in our communities are higher than they have ever been. The new strains of the virus make it more unpredictable than it has ever been. And yet… this government wants the most vulnerable children and the staff who care for them to go back to work. No additional precautions, no thoughts for our safety, no thoughts for our families, no thoughts for our own children, no thoughts for our own struggles.
Do not send us in to school. Any of us.
We will continue to support all our children as best we can, in this once off situation that has never, and will likely never happen again. We have upskilled without support from the DES. We have spent hours changing every aspect of our teaching to adapt to this unbelievable situation. We have spent countless meetings supporting each other, so we can best provide for our students, and keeping our community safe. We will continue to do so for as long as it takes, knowing that every day we stay at home we keep someone safe.
Do not send us in to school. Any of us
Do not send us in to work with some of the most vulnerable children in our communities. These children need close physical contact constantly. There is no such thing as social distancing with a child with a significant need. With children who pull masks from our faces and wipe their noses on our clothes. It is unfair to them, and unfair to the people caring for them, to pretend it can be done. The numbers in our community are too high to risk it at this moment in time.
Do not send us in to school. Any of us
We care about the children in our school, deeply. We also care about the people in our own homes, and our communities. We do not want to be responsible for spreading this virus further. Covid-19 is so prevalent now that it is only a matter of time before it enters our schools. This cannot happen if the school buildings remain closed and we support our students safely and remotely.
Do not send us in to school. Any of us.
Schools will not be safe on Thursday. They will not be safe because the community is not safe at the moment. They will not be safe because Covid-19 is rampant a the moment. They will not be safe because no other workplaces are safe. Schools are not immune to Covid-19. Social distancing is impossible when children require intimate care support. Social distancing is impossible when children engage in challenging behaviour. Schools will not be safe just because Norma Foley says so.
Do not send us to school. Any of us.
A few weeks of remote learning in the midst of the most dangerous part of the pandemic won’t harm anyone’s educational outcomes in the long run, but forcing 6 students (some with vulnerable health conditions), 1 teacher and up to 5 SNAs into a poorly ventilated classroom space in these freezing wintery conditions, without the ability for proper social distancing or mask wearing, could lead to a child or a staff member becoming seriously ill with Covid-19. As a school leader, I have barely slept over the past week, out of fear for my own health, my students’ health and my staff’s health. We should be treated equally and fairly, and protected just the same as our mainstream colleagues. Please support children with special educational needs, and the staff who go above and beyond to support them, by lobbying for special schools to be treated the same as our mainstream counterparts.
Kind regards,
Special Needs School Principals