Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Capt'n Midnight · 15-01-2021 01:36AM

ambro25 wrote: »

Reportedly, Scottish fishermen are now deporting landing those fish directly in Denmark instead.

I've not checked or thought about this further, for now, but somehow it doesn't sound right (in terms of market access/exporting of British fishing services/etc).

Though it might just be an expedient money-making fix for those Scots, until someone in authority in Denmark puts the kibosh on it.

The old rules said that most catch was supposed to land in the UK, but the UK didn't enforce those rules.

Any mention if they were 'EU' boats, majority owned, majority crewed, quota rented ?

Geuze · 15-01-2021 01:42AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Used to live with one. Only for a year so didn't get to know his mindset too well. He'd describe the EU as a corrupt capitalist club and free movement as a scheme to hold down wages. Couldn't cite any evidence of course. Never seemed capable of understanding how Labour actually needed to win an election before A50 was up to prevent the Tories taking a lit match to workers' rights, regulations and environmental protections. ..

I can't understand how Corbyn and other socialists are against the EU?

AFAIK, it has meant higher standards, more worker's rights, better env regulations???

For example, parental leave, 48hr working week, probably more that I don't know.

Emissions standards, etc.

Why would a socialist be against that?

Capt'n Midnight · 15-01-2021 01:46AM

sondagefaux wrote: »

Brits in Spain worrying about cheddar imports being too difficult.

https://www.thelocal.es/20210114/opinion-sue-wilson-spain-brexit-eu-imports-cheese

Not to worry lads. There's plenty of Irish-made cheddar for ye to enjoy.

I keep telling yiz the new cheese factory in Waterford will be making Dutch cheese for export to the EU.

It takes up a good chunk of the old cheddar surplus.

The plant, which was originally due to be in operation in 2022, will be built alongside Glanbia’s milk processing plant in Belview and is expected to produce 40,000 tonnes of cheese annually in addition to processing 450 million litres of milk.

Cheddar is only a part of the market

the cheddar market is worth most of the €367 million in dairy exports a year. Ireland accounts for 88 per cent of all UK cheddar imports.
...
Exports of specialised nutritional powders, mostly for baby milk, increased to €1.1 billion of which half went to the Chinese market.

BonnieSituation · 15-01-2021 01:58AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

I keep telling yiz the new cheese factory in Waterford will be making Dutch cheese for export to the EU.

It takes up a good chunk of the old cheddar surplus.

Cheddar is only a part of the market

Point of order. It's in Kilkenny. Unfortunately. Oh the heady days of the WD/KK boundary commission!

Capt'n Midnight · 15-01-2021 02:14AM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Point of order. It's in Kilkenny. Unfortunately. Oh the heady days of the WD/KK boundary commission!

Fair point

Anyway it's right beside the port so perfectly suited for bulk export.

BonnieSituation · 15-01-2021 02:30AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Fair point

Anyway it's right beside the port so perfectly suited for bulk export.

Absolutely is.

ancapailldorcha · 15-01-2021 09:45AM

Geuze wrote: »

I can't understand how Corbyn and other socialists are against the EU?

AFAIK, it has meant higher standards, more worker's rights, better env regulations???

For example, parental leave, 48hr working week, probably more that I don't know.

Emissions standards, etc.

Why would a socialist be against that?

The British left never recovered from being trounced by Thatcher. The centre-left moved on but anyone further left than that entrenched themselves, refused to change fundamentally and committed themselves to undoing Thatcherism.

They've seen the EU for a long time as a capitalist club intended to funnel wealth to the 1% while suppressing everyone else. There's also the democratic argument you see with Eurosceptics on either side of the left-right divide.

Finally, there's not much point in trade unions if the EU mandates and enforces high levels of rights and protections for workers.

The giant hole in this logic is that Corbyn himself, principled or no was an electoral disaster who incompetence was masked by that of Theresa May in 2017.

The Labour party has always had a Eurosceptic wing but it's only a shadow of its 1970's self where it was enough to compel the first referendum on continued membership of the then-EEC.

Zubeneschamali · 15-01-2021 10:32AM

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They're prioritising the export of air essentially? :D:D:D:D

It's preposterous.

No, it is obvious, and was suggested here in this group months ago. Why they didn't have it in place Day 1? Incompetence.

Pre Brexit, 4 out of 5 trucks crossing from Dover were empty. Giving them a faster queue and dedicated sailings is a complete no brainer.

They should add TIR traffic from Ireland to that line, speed things up and shorten lines for everyone else.

The Raging Bile Duct · 15-01-2021 10:41AM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

They've seen the EU for a long time as a capitalist club intended to funnel wealth to the 1% while suppressing everyone else.

Which is a bit of a weird one when you compare the EU to the US. EU's Top 1% vs Bottom 50% national income shares has remained relatively stable whereas the US really is an exercise in untamed greed in relation to the Top 1%.

I've a feeling that the UK's trajectory more closely follows the US than it does the EU.

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Sam Russell · 15-01-2021 10:46AM

GBP is trending up in value. Currently it is at 88.8p = €1

It started trending up on the 12th.

Professor Moriarty · 15-01-2021 10:54AM

Sam Russell wrote: »

GBP is trending up in value. Currently it is at 88.8p = €1

It started trending up on the 12th.

Why is that?

Sam Russell · 15-01-2021 11:00AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Why is that?

If I knew that, I would be a lot richer.

schmoo2k · 15-01-2021 11:00AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Why is that?

Not sure I would call 2/3 days a trend?

Professor Moriarty · 15-01-2021 11:02AM

schmoo2k wrote: »

Not sure I would call 2/3 days a trend?

Fair point. I suppose a few more weeks of Brexit settling into the UK's system will tell more.

schmoo2k · 15-01-2021 11:04AM

UK Supreme Court just ruled that businesses can claim for Covid losses from their insurance.

(Which is interesting as there is no further appeal mechanism?)

breatheme · 15-01-2021 11:12AM

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-politics-55631622

The shellfish (ha) story is brexit in a seashell (haha). I’m surprised at bbc reporting it as it is, “we are a third country...” ffs rolls eyes

She no longer sells sea shells on the single market would have been great title

She voted leave!

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1183363/brexit-news-no-deal-boris-johnson-wales-fisheries-nerys-edwards-syren-shellfish

And said she was ready for no deal impacting her business. What is wrong with her? Has she got goldfish memory?

BlitzKrieg · 15-01-2021 11:40AM

Geuze wrote: »

I can't understand how Corbyn and other socialists are against the EU?

AFAIK, it has meant higher standards, more worker's rights, better env regulations???

For example, parental leave, 48hr working week, probably more that I don't know.

Emissions standards, etc.

Why would a socialist be against that?

there are many levels of why depending on how far left you'd want to lean.

International socialists dont like the EU because as an international entity it enshrines the national governments at the core of it's structure. So it works as a body holding up those national structures, it specifically enshrine liberal democratic capitalist governments so if your intention was to replace that with a different system, the EU would be an entity that works against you.

A bit further in they are not a fan because while the EU does enshrine a lot of worker rights, it is not perfect and there have been cases where the EU has come down on the side against unions, especially in employment that crosses borders (the viking ferry issue being used as the primary example when this is discussed)

The popularity with the EU among those who lean left has primarily risen with the increase powers to the EU parliament, which is mostly been powers given in the more recent treaties, older socialists tend to still think of the EU as it was when these more democratic aspects were much weaker.

Lumen · 15-01-2021 12:05PM

There's a much shorter version of why Corbyn was pro Brexit:

Freedom of movement reduces the bargaining power of labour (small "l").

This is unarguably true, but the wider argument is about rising-tide-lifts-all-boats vs tell-that-to-the-people-on-zero-hour-minimum-wage-contracts.

ancapailldorcha · 15-01-2021 12:08PM

Lumen wrote: »

There's a much shorter version of why Corbyn was pro Brexit:

Freedom of movement reduces the bargaining power of labour (small "l").

This is unarguably true, but the wider argument is about rising-tide-lifts-all-boats vs tell-that-to-the-people-on-zero-hour-minimum-wage-contracts.

I think this is too simplistic. I've done this debate a few times and found no evidence for a significant impact on wages from free movement.

HalfAndHalf · 15-01-2021 12:10PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Why is that?

Nothing to do with Brexit and all to do with the vaccine rollout. Traders seeing it as a sign the U.K. economy will be able to fully open up ahead of other nations so a rise in strength against most major currencies not just the €

Lumen · 15-01-2021 12:12PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I think this is too simplistic. I've done this debate a few times and found no evidence for a significant impact on wages from free movement.

OK then, it's arguably true.

In any case, that's the logic. Old Labour doesn't really care whether the country as a whole is poorer, it cares more about inequality.

New Labour shifted the focus from inequality to deprivation.

Tories see poverty as a necessary source of motivation and raw material for "wealth creation", which just so happens to accrue to the already wealthy, because they're worth it.

ancapailldorcha · 15-01-2021 12:17PM

Lumen wrote: »

OK then, it's arguably true.

In any case, that's the logic. Old Labour doesn't really care whether the country as a whole is poorer, it cares more about inequality.

New Labour shifted the focus from inequality to deprivation.

Tories see poverty as a necessary source of motivation and raw material for "wealth creation", which just so happens to accrue to the already wealthy, because they're worth it.

I disagree. Feel free to provide evidence but as I said, I've been here before and nobody's ever produced anything beyond casuistry.

"Old Labour" has just all but handed the government carte blanche to hand more wealth to the 1% and slash protections for workers and the environment.

fash · 15-01-2021 12:26PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Nothing to do with Brexit and all to do with the vaccine rollout. Traders seeing it as a sign the U.K. economy will be able to fully open up ahead of other nations so a rise in strength against most major currencies not just the €

I believe also influenced by BoE indicating it did not intend to reduce interest:

https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-sterling/bolstered-by-boe-rate-talk-pound-keeps-up-pressure-on-dollar-euro-idUSL1N2JP0OK

Hurrache · 15-01-2021 12:28PM

Orwell and 1984 was used, incorrectly, a lot recently in relation to what's happening in America, but no surprises that the Telegraph and Brexiteers are following the big brother modus operandi now
https://twitter.com/nealerichmond/status/1349847539160403968

Lumen · 15-01-2021 12:40PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I disagree. Feel free to provide evidence but as I said, I've been here before and nobody's ever produced anything beyond casuistry.

"Old Labour" has just all but handed the government carte blanche to hand more wealth to the 1% and slash protections for workers and the environment.

I'm not advocating for the view, only relaying my belief that it partly explains Corbyn's support of Brexit.

Under normal circumstances, the glacial lurching of the Labour party back and forth between centrist and electorally-self-harming far left politics is relatively benign. It's just really unfortunate that the timing of the latest lurch to the left happened precisely when the UK needed a useful centre-left opposition.

sondagefaux · 15-01-2021 12:41PM

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Which is a bit of a weird one when you compare the EU to the US. EU's Top 1% vs Bottom 50% national income shares has remained relatively stable whereas the US really is an exercise in untamed greed in relation to the Top 1%.

I've a feeling that the UK's trajectory more closely follows the US than it does the EU.

Northern Europe is also catching up with the USA in per capita GDP. Spot which one of the Big Three in Europe is not doing so well...

Hurrache · 15-01-2021 12:54PM

DPD has a huge list of goods they won't ship to the EU from the UK, looking at some of the stuff it'll have a real affect on smaller businesses, particularly if other couriers follow suit.

Their full list is here, there's a lot of clothing made of wool and other materials.
https://www.dpd.co.uk/xml/content/about_dpd/uk-export-prohibited-list-v2.pdf

HalfAndHalf · 15-01-2021 12:55PM

fash wrote: »

I believe also influenced by BoE indicating it did not intend to reduce interest:

https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-sterling/bolstered-by-boe-rate-talk-pound-keeps-up-pressure-on-dollar-euro-idUSL1N2JP0OK

That did have a short impact, one of the people in the committee came out and said neg rates would be required and I’d dipped slightly but then Bailey came out and shelved that idea again and it recovered. Markets are very much looking at economies reopening at the moment. But markets are fickle, it could be the price of a cup of tea next week

J Mysterio · 15-01-2021 01:40PM

schmoo2k wrote: »

UK Supreme Court just ruled that businesses can claim for Covid losses from their insurance.

(Which is interesting as there is no further appeal mechanism?)

Strange decision. Assumed that would have fallen under 'act of god', but then it is the UK government which mandated closures.

prawnsambo · 15-01-2021 01:45PM

Hurrache wrote: »

DPD has a huge list of goods they won't ship to the EU from the UK, looking at some of the stuff it'll have a real affect on smaller businesses, particularly if other couriers follow suit.

Their full list is here, there's a lot of clothing made of wool and other materials.
https://www.dpd.co.uk/xml/content/about_dpd/uk-export-prohibited-list-v2.pdf

It's not even specific to the EU as a whole either. There are products that some EU countries will accept and others won't. Nightmare for them.

Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

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