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Smoke Pollution in Urban Areas

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,816 ✭✭✭skooterblue2


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    Where do we stand on eco-logs? The ones made from compressed sawdust.

    Ever seen the mash of sawdust and newspaper pulp? next to useless


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭AutoTuning


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    How do you protect the fuel poverty people though?

    Having no alternative (due to lack of capital to make changes) but to use solid fuel as your source of heat because of obsolete infrastructure in your home - lack of central heating systems, bad insulation etc and where that's driven by inability to get out of that trap, rather than some whacko notion (as some of my elderly relative make).

    We'd an experience in my own family where we offered to install gas central heating in an 80+ year old relatives house and she flatly refused saying she likes open fires and she "wouldn't have the gas as it dries the air." It was nothing to do with pride or anything like that. She would rather go around wearing a coat and plugging in 3kW heaters (which cost a bloody fortune to run) than install "the gas".

    There is a certain generation here who saw central heating as a ridiculous luxury or have almost victorian attitudes about heat from open fires.

    Then you've a modern generation who just like the look of open fires and keep using them for nostalgic reasons.

    Neither of those cases are fuel poverty.

    What I see in Cork City is smoke rising from places like Mahon and other areas with a lot of relatively poor social housing. You can see smoke coming out of chimney pots and it's not just one or two houses, it's a high %. That to me would look like fuel poverty, not people taking notions.

    The other issue that's also coming up is burning domestic waste in fire places due to high waste charges. That also is a backfiring element of waste policy as you've got both unregulated burning, including in urban areas, and illegal dumping which is being driven by high waste charges being levied in an unusual way. Most of Europe does not have a privatised waste market like we do, not even in Tory Britain have they gone that route.

    I personally know people who boast about putting a large % of their household waste into a stove.
    So you're potentially getting poorly combusted, half burnt plastics, inks, coatings and all sorts of stuff going into the atmosphere.

    We have a big issue with urban air quality.

    One other point to remember in Ireland is natural gas arrived on the market here much later than most of Europe and most of Britain (Northern Ireland was even later) It really wasn’t widespread until the late 1980s and even into the 1990s, having arrived in Cork from Kinsale Head in the 1970s. The network took decades to build out. “Town gas” systems like the old Dublin or Cork gas supplies used manufactured gas and it was uneconomic as a fuel for central heating, so was hardly ever used. So our buildings tended to use a lot more solid fuel and pressure jet oil etc much later than most and in much more urban areas than most.

    So instead of seeing a rush of natural gas heating in the 1950s we built out housing stock for open fires and oil.

    https://www.purpleair.com is a good source of info and you'll see in winter most Irish towns and cities (and those north of the border too) perform very poorly compared to much of Western Europe. We're more in line with poorer parts of Eastern Europe and that applies to areas of the U.K. too.

    Pick a still night and you'll get abysmal readings, including in the bigger cities.

    Tonight's not particularly bad due to the wet weather.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,985 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    eco-logs are better suited to stoves rather than open fires.....a lot of European countries have had community gas heating for decades, certainly those with hard winters. I don't think gas heating will be out of service for a long time to come. We've never really had much community heating here. It's very efficient when run right and natural gas has the toxins cleaned out of it at the refinery before it ever gets pumped into a house. While burning it gives off CO2, it's certainly not as bad as coal emissions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    Ever seen the mash of sawdust and newspaper pulp? next to useless

    I use them in our closed insert stove that can't take wet wood and they burn really really well. Lots of heat and next to zero cleaning.

    it's not our primary heat source, we use it at the weekends during the winter for heating downstairs and general ambience when we're relaxing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,695 ✭✭✭air


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    How do you protect the fuel poverty people though?
    You could start by explaining to them that there are often cheaper alternatives available.
    Grants could be provided for air source heat pumps, insulation or other clean burning heat sources depending on their location.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    air wrote: »
    You could start by explaining to them that there are often cheaper alternatives available.
    Grants could be provided for air source heat pumps, insulation or other clean burning heat sources depending on their location.

    Here's one example of how grants are difficult for old people

    One old person I know applied for a council grant to get their heating system upgraded. They had oil powered central heating but their burner was absolutely antique. I think it was on Noah's Ark.

    The person filled in the forms and applied for the grant. They were refused because they were behind on their property tax. This old person didn't actually realise that property tax was still a thing. There was over €500 owed in property tax and zero chance that the old person would be able to come up with the money to pay the property tax.

    Secondly, even if they got the grant, they would have had to make up a shortfall as the grant doesn't cover 100% of the work. They didn't have this money either.

    So, the grant system that is in place doesn't suit those who most need it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,596 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    GDY151


    They can defer the property tax so it's taken upon their death, either way the money will be taken from them, making it official that they want it upon their death would make most sense allowing them to avail of grants. There are thresholds for defferal so may or may not suit them.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/housing_taxes_and_reliefs/deferring_local_property_tax.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    They can defer the property tax so it's taken upon their death, either way the money will be taken from them, making it official that they want it upon their death would make most sense allowing them to avail of grants.


    The council wouldn't process the grant unless the property tax was up to date. I know this for a fact because I helped the old person fill out the forms.

    And yes, the property tax was being deferred. The person I helped out didn't even know that it was being deferred. They genuinely thought that the property tax wasn't a thing any more.

    It would make sense to allow certain people to get the grant when their property tax is deferred until death but the Council (where I live) don't seem to want to operate that way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    That's a sly way to punish elders that want to warehouse their property tax until it's sold. What county council is that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭AutoTuning


    If you want to see some of the comparisons on fuel mix used to heat homes here, take a look at :

    https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/8/1894/htm

    Fuel mix:

    https://www.mdpi.com/energies/energies-13-01894/article_deploy/html/images/energies-13-01894-g002.png

    Ireland's way out there with Eastern Europe on use of coal, a huge amount of oil and almost no renewable worth talking about compared to most of Europe. The UK is a similar pattern for renewables, but massive amounts of natural gas use.

    We're actually a total disgrace on home heating. We've basically made no progress at all on it. There's endless talk and policy papers here and no real action.

    The reality is we're probably 40 to 50 years behind Scandinavia on this, particularly on the renewables side.

    and in 2015 we'd the second most CO2 intensive space heating, only being pipped a bit by Poland.

    https://www.mdpi.com/energies/energies-13-01894/article_deploy/html/images/energies-13-01894-g003.png

    Basically, we've crappy air quality because we're burning way more solid fuel than most and also in a more uncontrolled manner than the heavy users of solid fuel (a lot of that would go into district heating in Eastern Europe and be burnt relatively more cleanly in boilers, not open fires.)

    Oil isn't particularly wonderful either, particularly with older or badly maintained / tuned boilers and burners, they're ones that produce haze. It's not unusual to be able to smell kerosine / gasoil fumes in Irish housing estates and suburbs.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    John_Rambo wrote: »
    That's a sly way to punish elders that want to warehouse their property tax until it's sold. What county council is that?

    A Co. Council in Leinster. Lets leave it at that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,092 ✭✭✭✭John_Rambo


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    A Co. Council in Leinster. Lets leave it at that.

    It's no skin off you nose to name the Coco. Either way, if you're close to this person you should dig deeper. I'd do it for my folks


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Stihl waters


    Talking about grants, clare co co were giving grants to elderly people up to a couple of years ago for solid stoves, a relation of my mother changed out her perfectly good oil stove for a solid burning stove, how does that make sense? so she has to haul in turf and timber instead of just hitting a switch on a wall and all the cleaning that goes with it, they could still be offering the Grant's for all I know, it seems a very regressive step for a council to be offering grants for something like this


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 165 ✭✭Deemed as Normal


    I hear the rate of strokes goes up in an area where there has been a lot of smoke pollution. As far as I know the statistics for strokes actually rises in city areas after cold nights.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,521 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Here's one example of how grants are difficult for old people

    One old person I know applied for a council grant to get their heating system upgraded. They had oil powered central heating but their burner was absolutely antique. I think it was on Noah's Ark.

    The person filled in the forms and applied for the grant. They were refused because they were behind on their property tax. This old person didn't actually realise that property tax was still a thing. There was over €500 owed in property tax and zero chance that the old person would be able to come up with the money to pay the property tax.

    Secondly, even if they got the grant, they would have had to make up a shortfall as the grant doesn't cover 100% of the work. They didn't have this money either.

    So, the grant system that is in place doesn't suit those who most need it.
    Do you really think it is hugely unreasonable of Government to not be dishing out grants to people who aren't tax compliant?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,423 ✭✭✭blackbox


    I hear the rate of strokes goes up in an area where there has been a lot of smoke pollution. As far as I know the statistics for strokes actually rises in city areas after cold nights.

    I'd like to see the source of this information, but even if true, did it ever cross your mind that it might be due to the cold rather than the pollution?


  • Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    blackbox wrote: »
    I'd like to see the source of this information, but even if true, did it ever occur cross your mind that it might be due to the cold rather than the pollution?

    Dementia and strokes

    https://www.homecare.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1636915/scientists-link-dementia-fires-home

    https://www.thejournal.ie/rise-in-strokes-rise-in-air-pollution-dublin-5172724-Aug2020/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭mickuhaha


    I hear the rate of strokes goes up in an area where there has been a lot of smoke pollution. As far as I know the statistics for strokes actually rises in city areas after cold nights.

    This is true but it is close to half the risk for such conditions with having alcohol and being overweight, just for context.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Do you really think it is hugely unreasonable of Government to not be dishing out grants to people who aren't tax compliant?

    It's fully legal for an old person on not much money to defer their property tax until their death. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    If it's legal to do, the Council shouldn't use it as a bar to give grants to old people to put a modern heating system into their fridge of a house.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It's fully legal for an old person on not much money to defer their property tax until their death. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    If it's legal to do, the Council shouldn't use it as a bar to give grants to old people to put a modern heating system into their fridge of a house.

    Thank you!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,521 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    It's fully legal for an old person on not much money to defer their property tax until their death. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    If it's legal to do, the Council shouldn't use it as a bar to give grants to old people to put a modern heating system into their fridge of a house.


    She hadn't deferred though, she just hadn't paid.

    Why couldn't she just arrange the deferral and then apply again for the grant?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    She hadn't deferred though, she just hadn't paid.

    Why couldn't she just arrange the deferral and then apply again for the grant?

    It's true, she didn't defer it. The Council deferred it for her.

    The point is that it was deferred, so she should have gotten the grant.

    We are talking about people who have fcukall money and are living in poor conditions. Why make things harder for them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 868 ✭✭✭2lazytogetup


    There is a constitutional reason why property tax is not necessarily due till a house gets sold or proprietor dies.

    When you pay tax, income, vat or any tax you are paying a contribution to state cause they indirectly make services available.

    With property tax, there is a philosophical or jurisprudence issue in a man in his castle not receiving any services and not having money owing property tax.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 868 ✭✭✭2lazytogetup


    Back on topic, I was out for a stroll this evening and its shocking the smoke in the air going into my lungs. Id say if there wasn't the whole c19 taking our focus, this air pollution would be making front pages of the news. It's depressing. You would think we live in Texas with our attitudes that we can do what we wantin our houses and feck anyone outside.


  • Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thread on UCC research into air pollution issue
    Worth follow if interested

    https://twitter.com/CRAClabUCC/status/1278382212233285633?s=19


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭mickuhaha


    Thread on UCC research into air pollution issue
    Worth follow if interested

    https://twitter.com/CRAClabUCC/status/1278382212233285633?s=19

    I think the last date of recording for that paper was January 2016,so a bit out of date. Some might correct me if I am wrong.


  • Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mickuhaha wrote: »
    I think the last date of recording for that paper was January 2016,so a bit out of date. Some might correct me if I am wrong.

    It gives some info on the smokey material origin though.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,497 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    One thing I would say about the photo used to illustrate that is that if my stove was smoking as much as the chimneys in that photo, I'd assume there was something wrong with it. Most of the focus recently had been on stoves, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that open fires cause the majority of urban and suburban pollution.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 419 ✭✭AutoTuning


    All I can tell you is I grew up in and had my early childhood before the smoky fuel ban, which only happend in 1995 in Cork and before that we lived in Dublin towards the end of the smokey fuel era and it took a few years to die out.

    The area where I grew up was full of retrofitted back boilers (boilers that sat behind an open fire in the fireplace) due to a spike in oil prices in the 70s and early 80s and they were often used instead of or along side oil central heating.

    Open fires burned in most houses all winter. Coal bunkers. The coal man etc etc were common features of life.

    I remember, as a small kid, my mam bringing in laundry covered in "smuts" (lumps of soot).

    I used to develop really bad chesty coughs and I remember black stuff coming out of my nose. I also developed endless sinus problems and ear infections that did serious damage to one of my ears, ultimately necessitating complex ear surgery in my late teens and I'm still left with had tinnitus and on going problems in that ear. It works, but not as it should do.

    All of my ENT and chest problems abruptly ended when the smokey fuel ban came in and after we moved house.

    There was a very rapid replacement of heating systems in the 1990s with gas. You probably remember the 50:50 cashback jingle? That had *huge* impact on air quality in Dublin and Cork in that era.

    I can only conclude that my issues were smoke pollution related. Nothing else makes sense as they stopped, never recurring again as soon as the smoke stopped. However I'm left with a life long damaged middle ear due to countless ear infections in the late 80s and early 90s and a big scar up the back of my ear and into my scalp from surgery.

    This stuff isn't some hippy dippy green issue or something to be sneered at. It is a very real hardship for many people. Just because you might feel you're not being impacted by smoke doesn't mean someone else isn't.

    This is a very Irish and very rural problem because we often seem to bring practices that might be of little impact in a house in a feild into the middle of a city, a town or a housing development with density of population.

    As a nation I think we have an inability to get out heads around the fact that urban and rural are not the same thing. There are certain levels of compromise and cooperation needed in cities and towns to make things work and one of those is managing air pollution outputs much more rigorously than in rural settings.

    Also urban does not end at the M50 in Dublin. There are 4 other significant cities, but there are other smaller urban areas that have serious problems with smoke pollution, yet are put into "down the country mode" in the way we tend to think about them. Some of them even form parts of the hinterlands of our cities and are growing as satellite towns yet are still considered villages.

    All or that stuff feeds into what is increasingly looking like a very odd Irish problem that is making us an outlier in western Europe. For all our images of clean, green countryside in the marketing campaigns, we manage to choke ourselves in totally unnecessary had quality air.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Back on topic, I was out for a stroll this evening and its shocking the smoke in the air going into my lungs. Id say if there wasn't the whole c19 taking our focus, this air pollution would be making front pages of the news. It's depressing. You would think we live in Texas with our attitudes that we can do what we wantin our houses and feck anyone outside.

    Wear a mask? it is bitterly, dangerously cold these days. And as others have said, many of us older folk have hard choices cost wise.

    Here I burn smokeless coal and local turf.


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