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Why do we need a signer at all GOV announcements?

fortwilliam

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...

https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

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Gregor Samsa

Also, seemingly because males and females were traditionally taught ISL in separate schools, there’s a difference in the language between the sexes, which is unique among sign languages.

Zebra3

Btw, while discussing deafness related issues, if you're wearing a mask, deaf people can't lipread you!!!!!

Incredible that some people haven't copped that.

killbillvol2

fortwilliam wrote: »

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...

https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

It's for TikTok.

AutoTuning

Interestingly, ISL is based on old LSF (Langue des signes Française) which forms the basis of many European sign languages and also, importantly for access to large numbers of English-linked sign language, LSF is also the root of American Sign Language.

It originally grew up as a language spoken by a deaf community in Paris and was then formalised in deaf schools in the 1700s and spread from there.

BSL isn’t connected and grew up in deaf schools in Britain.

That’s why you’ve a need for two signers in NI. The two languages are quite different even though there’s crossover and people who may be able to converse in both.

The history of banning children from using sign language in schools also lead to a lot of isolation. There was an oralist vs manualist argument in the 19th and 20th century that sought to force deaf people to lip read by banning the use of sign language. So children were often punished for conversing in sign language, which was a terrible thing to do, when you consider that someone can communicate much more fluidly and fluently in sign than by reading lips and for many it’s their first and native language.

The rather flawed logic was that sign language was isolating deaf people and it was the good old fashioned attempt to force them to normalise to suit everyone else (a thread that runs through a lot of institutions of that era), rather than accept it was a language, with its own grammar, syntax and history and linguistic culture.

It’s long been shown anywhere you get a community of deaf people a sign language will form. So it’s an innately human ability to create symbolic language in whatever mediums are available, and when audio isn’t, we can do it visually.

I don’t know why some people have such a bee in their bonnet about using ISL to live translate spoken conferences about very important statements. It’s just opening access to a community who won’t be able to access it easily otherwise.

It’s worse than it being unavailable in Irish as basically spoken language is unintelligible to some and I think people are confusing what a sign language is. It isn’t just a direct translation of spoken English. That would be way too cumbersome. It does use some finger spelling for words brought in, but it’s doing its own thing as a language of symbolic gestures that encapsulate meaning.

Written European or any language with a phonetic script (in contrast to say Chinese symbolic writing which isn’t directly linked to spoken Chinese) is just a way of encoding the phonetics of speech into a code of letters. If you don’t fully understand the phonetics of speech, because you’ve never heard them, you can see why reading rapidly scrolling subtitles is not always ideal.

anplaya27

fortwilliam wrote: »

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...

https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

Irish Sign language is recognised as a native language of ireland alongside Irish since 2017. It was once banned from use by the church and state.

English is not the language of the Deaf, it is a spoken language which we have never heard.

We have a right to information in our native language hence the interpreters.

Anesthetize

Did somebody actually create a thread on this?

anplaya27

pickarooney wrote: »

Is there such a thing as accents in sign language? Like in different parts of the country do they have slightly different hand movements or speed?

Yes, with regional variations too. And all native sign languages are different. Am a Deaf ISL user.

anplaya27

Kylta wrote: »

No, I'm sure ISL is national langauge, their is no accent. Only hand and face signals. I done an ISL course last year as part of my job, and I must admit it was probably one of the best courses I did in years. Where I have just basic ISL learning I love watching them signing on the news, knowing I can catch some of what there saying because the are fluent with their signing.
In regards to the OP I curious as to why this should even be a post? What were you hoping for?

You're wrong. Regional dialects and variations exist. Also there is masculine and feminine versions of ISL due to segregation in the past too.

I wish people on this thread would stop posting misinformation about our culture and language. Someon clearly started this thread with bad intentions. Can a moderater please close this thread.

anplaya27

Kylta wrote: »

Thank you for that bit of knowledge, but the instructor never elaborated on accents within in the deaf culture. Maybe the course was to short (actually it was just basic stuff,)

Takes years to learn as it's a full language. I'm a Deaf ISL user and I am continually learning as its an evolving language. You wouldnt be be able to understand or have a conversation with the Deaf from attending a basic course. It teaches you to say hello etc , and its exactly that, just basic.

AutoTuning

It’s a bit of a pointless premise for a thread, but it shows the amount of ignorance out there about sign language in general. I just find it fascinating to be aware of a whole other branch of human language, with its own syntax, grammar, structure, history and culture behind it.

All you have to do is watch one of those Late Late Toy Show simultaneously signers in full flow and you really get a sense that it’s a very rich, fluid and sophisticated language.

It’s also remarkable that the kind of mentality that went on about eradicating the use of Irish (or many other smaller languages) to convenience a majority either by directly attempting to stop its use or dismissing it also went on for sign languages and far later. It’s only very recently that people have woken up to that.

The remarkable part is you’d think that Ireland, of all places, would be more aware of the problems and hurt that kind of approach causes. It took us far, far too long to recognise and embrace ISL as one of our official languages.

It’s a part of Irish linguistic culture and needs to be recognised as such. It’s our visual language.

NickNickleby

Hodors Appletart wrote: »

yeah, some deaf people can develop quirks or hand movements between different social groupings - just like hearing people, there is slang too and neologisms

Sign Languages are full and complete languages and have the same make-up and things as any spoken language.

My cousin is one of the Govt signers, we're all very proud of his new-found fame this year.

Sometimes when watching signers, I wonder how easy it is to learn, how nuanced is it, are there lots of shortcuts used? Fair play to your cousin, though.

Can I ask, does anyone know if the signers are themselves deaf? I ask this because when we see them, they're usually either alongside or behind the speakers. So either they're reading a teleprompter*, or they're actually listening to the speakers.
(*can't imagine that though, in a live Q & A session...)

As to the OP, I would say this is a very good initiative. When the press conferences started, we were all glued to the sets, awaiting Armageddon. It was vital to get the info out to everyone, and that's exactly what they did - highly commendable.

The OP might be thinking that some woke eejit said: "oooooh, I knowwww, lets put signers up there, everyone will think we're wonderful". I suppose its possible, but imagine being at THAT meeting, wouldn't you tell them to get a grip, we're not doing this for kudos. Its an unlikely scenario, in my opinion.

So, I think the communications we've been getting during a dreadful time, has been excellent. This pandemic is constantly shifting the goalposts and those charged with protecting us (yes, including current and previous Ministers) have done a great job. I don't envy them.

anplaya27

NickNickleby wrote: »

Sometimes when watching signers, I wonder how easy it is to learn, how nuanced is it, are there lots of shortcuts used? Fair play to your cousin, though.

Can I ask, does anyone know if the signers are themselves deaf? I ask this because when we see them, they're usually either alongside or behind the speakers. So either they're reading a teleprompter*, or they're actually listening to the speakers.
(*can't imagine that though, in a live Q & A session...)

As to the OP, I would say this is a very good initiative. When the press conferences started, we were all glued to the sets, awaiting Armageddon. It was vital to get the info out to everyone, and that's exactly what they did - highly commendable.

The OP might be thinking that some woke eejit said: "oooooh, I knowwww, lets put signers up there, everyone will think we're wonderful". I suppose its possible, but imagine being at THAT meeting, wouldn't you tell them to get a grip, we're not doing this for kudos. Its an unlikely scenario, in my opinion.

So, I think the communications we've been getting during a dreadful time, has been excellent. This pandemic is constantly shifting the goalposts and those charged with protecting us (yes, including current and previous Ministers) have done a great job. I don't envy them.

ISL and spoken english are completely different languages and have nothing in common. One language is visual, other isoral, which the Deaf have never heard, yet are expected to understand. Imagine how difficult that is.
You interpret ISL to english and english to ISL. Sometimes thereis no direct translation and you need to finger spell the word and come up with a sign to describe it.

Signers you see there are hearing, obviously interpreting in real time sure. You need to be able to hear for that. We have Deaf interpreters too. Interpreters study in the school of linguistics in Trinity at the centre for Deaf studies. I'm a member of the Deaf community and an ISL user.

[Deleted User]

bubblypop wrote: »

And we have entire news bulletins in Irish for them.

We used to have news for the deaf on Rte1 as well.
I remember my grandfather watching it in the 70's.
It was sign, subtitled and lip read by those watching it.

If anything we have regressed

Sardonicat

SouthWesterly wrote: »

We used to have news for the deaf on Rte1 as well.
I remember my grandfather watching it in the 70's.
It was sign, subtitled and lip read by those watching it.

If anything we have regressed

That's right, it was spoken slowly, with a slowly scrolling text and an interpreter on screen, making the news very accessible for deaf and hard of hearing people. My Dad would appreciate the slow articulation and slow text now. He is very hard of hearing and relies heavily on lip reading these days. While subtitles can be helpful watching tv, anyone who's tried using them on live broadcasts will know they are a disaster with time lags, missing words or entire tracts of dialogue and some bizarre typos!

anplaya27

SouthWesterly wrote: »

We used to have news for the deaf on Rte1 as well.
I remember my grandfather watching it in the 70's.
It was sign, subtitled and lip read by those watching it.

If anything we have regressed

We still do ? It's on rte.

How have we regressed?

Its now recognised as a native language. It used to be banned from use not that long ago. Actually today is the day the ISL Act 2017 is fully enacted in law.

Sardonicat

anplaya27 wrote: »

We still do ? It's on rte.

How have we regressed?

Its now recognised as a native language. It used to be banned from use not that long ago. Actually today is the day the ISL Act 2017 is fully enacted in law.

What time is that news broadcast, and which channel, anplaya? TIA

anplaya27

Sardonicat wrote: »

What time is that news broadcast, and which channel, anplaya? TIA

Not sure. It's usually either before or after rte news on rte 1. Several Deaf people I know are the signers on it.

HeidiHeidi

Sardonicat wrote: »

What time is that news broadcast, and which channel, anplaya? TIA

It's on between the Nuacht and the 6o'c bulletin on RTE1, although I think the rolling text is gone, it's just signed now. Which is a shame, I thought the newsreader, signer and text covered the most bases.

Sardonicat

anplaya27 wrote: »

Not sure. It's usually either before or after rte news on rte 1.

It must be before it because my Dad is always watching another channel immediately before and switches over st one o'clock and six o'clock. If it's on my tv listings I'll set it to record. I'm not sure it is though. Thanks

anplaya27

HeidiHeidi wrote: »

It's on between the Nuacht and the 6o'c bulletin on RTE1, although I think the rolling text is gone, it's just signed now. Which is a shame, I thought the newsreader, signer and text covered the most bases.

Rolling text still there

Sardonicat

Ok, I'll record Nuacht and hope it captures it. The next step will be to convince him to watch it. He watches multiple news broadcasts a day but really csnt follow any if them. At least this way he can get the News for himself and not have to rely on a third party explaining it to him. Thanks guys.

Hamsterchops

fortwilliam wrote: »

Why do we need a signer at all GOV announcements?

...and why is he always wearing black?

With a black shirt & a black tie, with dark trousers & black shoes? Like a harbinger of death, or the messenger of gloom & doom!

Hopefully his wife will go clothes shopping & brighten up his wardrobe this Christmas

Other colours do exist.

.anon.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Btw, while discussing deafness related issues, if you're wearing a mask, deaf people can't lipread you!!!!!

Incredible that some people haven't copped that.

I didn't realise how deaf I was, and how much I've been relying on lipreading, until everyone started wearing masks.

anplaya27

Hamsterchops wrote: »

...and why is he always wearing black?

With a black shirt & a black tie, with dark trousers & black shoes? Like a harbinger of death, or the messenger of gloom & doom!

Hopefully his wife will go clothes shopping & brighten up his wardrobe this Christmas

Other colours do exist.

Think about what hes doing. Then you'll understand why.

JasonStatham

fortwilliam wrote: »

Is it a WOKE thing that we need a signer at every press conference?
Do sub-titles not work or are there a lot of deaf people who cannot read?
Just wondering like...

https://t.co/YYqGprOD9w?amp=1

It's for the faces that the signers pull, that we love and adore them. Haha.

If i was signing i would be gyrating my neck and flexing my shoulders for extra emphasis

runawaybishop

Hamsterchops wrote: »

...and why is he always wearing black?

With a black shirt & a black tie, with dark trousers & black shoes? Like a harbinger of death, or the messenger of gloom & doom!

Hopefully his wife will go clothes shopping & brighten up his wardrobe this Christmas

Other colours do exist.

It's so you can clearly see his hands, contrast.

Sir Oxman

Kylta wrote: »

No, I'm sure ISL is national langauge, their is no accent. Only hand and face signals. I done an ISL course last year as part of my job, and I must admit it was probably one of the best courses I did in years. Where I have just basic ISL learning I love watching them signing on the news, knowing I can catch some of what there saying because the are fluent with their signing.
In regards to the OP I curious as to why this should even be a post? What were you hoping for?

Is it difficult to pick up?
I remember years ago being encouraged to do a course but sadly I didn't have the time.

[Deleted User]

Collie D wrote: »

I’d go a step further and get rid of the microphones too. Can hearing people not read subtitles?

I would go a step even further and do away with the people completely. Cant people read a blank black screen with white writing?

Sir Oxman

Anesthetize wrote: »

Did somebody actually create a thread on this?

Yup, but it's developed into a really interesting one about the language itself!

Stihl waters

I watch it to see the red headed one, she would get a shot at the title if she came looking for it