Smoke Pollution in Urban Areas

magicbastarder · 19-12-2020 11:01AM

it doesn't say in the article what the levels as a result of an open fire would be, unfortunately.

19-12-2020 11:40AM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Iv been eyeing up a new stove. It's big enough to put a full bale of briquettes in. No need to take the the strapping off either. Probably won't get it sorted this year though unfortunately.

Burning the straps gives off savage toxins

Sardonicat · 19-12-2020 11:43AM

Dubmany wrote: »

What made a big difference in reducing smoke levels in Dublin and other cities was the introduction of the smoky coal ban (you can burn smokeless coal instead). That ban was extended to towns over 10,000 people this September. The problem is that it hasn't fed through or isn't being enforced.

I didn't get that memo! Did this get any publicity at all?

20-12-2020 02:07PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Coming from always having had an open fire and now plans to get a stove I'm a little bit "so what", it has to be an improvement right?

If you ever develop asthma and struggle to breathe in polluted air, that's exactly what I would say to you and all you'd deserve: "so what"

TheChizler · 20-12-2020 04:03PM

salonfire wrote: »

If you ever develop asthma and struggle to breathe in polluted air, that's exactly what I would say to you and all you'd deserve: "so what"

That's a little rude. We are of course talking about indoor pollution from a stove inside the house, which the occupant tends to have control over. If I or someone in my household were to ever develop asthma I just wouldn't use the fireplace/stove if it aggravated it.

20-12-2020 06:18PM

TheChizler wrote: »

That's a little rude. We are of course talking about indoor pollution from a stove inside the house, which the occupant tends to have control over. If I or someone in my household were to ever develop asthma I just wouldn't use the fireplace/stove if it aggravated it.

Yeah but not as rude as intentionally releasing particulates into your neighbours lungs and their asthmatic/COAP/CF lungs by burning in a fireplace or stove.

20-12-2020 07:26PM

Wait till they ban turf....it'll kick off then

magicbastarder · 20-12-2020 07:31PM

it's starting to happen:

Government plans new year ban on sale of all smoky fuels

Coal, peat briquettes, sod turf and wet wood will all be targeted on a phased basis. The move comes amid ongoing concerns over the health effects of air pollution

https://www.businesspost.ie/climate-environment/government-plans-new-year-ban-on-sale-of-all-smoky-fuels-de5875ce

TheChizler · 20-12-2020 07:57PM

salonfire wrote: »

Yeah but not as rude as intentionally releasing particulates into your neighbours lungs and their asthmatic/COAP/CF lungs by burning in a fireplace or stove.

Maybe you'd have a point if that was in any way related to the article I was talking about.

OscarMIlde · 21-12-2020 07:16AM

TheChizler wrote: »

That's a little rude. We are of course talking about indoor pollution from a stove inside the house, which the occupant tends to have control over. If I or someone in my household were to ever develop asthma I just wouldn't use the fireplace/stove if it aggravated it.

Except these affect all around them. My neighbour got an extension and has some type of wood burner in it, with an illegally low outpipe. When he starts burning his noxious crap, the smoke enters my rental house. Due to the layout of the house our sitting room and bedroom is at the back of the house, so the fumes are in our most lived in spaces.
As soon as it starts up my asthma gets aggravated and I'm audibly wheezing. Happens like clockwork every evening around half seven when your man gets home from work. I have had to buy three air filtration units to try and minimise the effects on me. I've actually had to leave work early on two occasions this year as I was struggling to breathe with my mask on as my I forgot to turn on a filter in my bedroom before I went to bed, and ended up wheezing for days afterwards. My health is suffering because of obnoxious, selfish gits like him.

Stovepipe · 21-12-2020 12:45PM

Well, if it's affecting your health, do something about it instead of moaning on here. Start by either planting a shovel in his face to make him stop or call the Gardai/County Council/Bord Pleanala/your local TD/your solicitor and get them to do something about it. If the exhaust outlet is as illegal as you say, then he will have to either raise it to an acceptable height or scrap it. Apart from that,if the property is rented, get the landlord involved, as it is affecting his property.

magicbastarder · 21-12-2020 01:07PM

There are people near us who definitely are not burning solid fuel in their stove/fireplace. A friend of my wife works as a carer and years ago used to have to call to a house where they burned adult nappies in the fire. She said the smell in the place was horrendous.

21-12-2020 01:11PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

There are people near us who definitely are not burning solid fuel in their stove/fireplace. A friend of my wife works as a carer and years ago used to have to call to a house where they burned adult nappies in the fire. She said the smell in the place was horrendous.

Fùuuuuk
I've heard of 'Flush or burn' waste disposal , but this is both

OscarMIlde · 21-12-2020 02:16PM

Stovepipe wrote: »

Well, if it's affecting your health, do something about it instead of moaning on here. Start by either planting a shovel in his face to make him stop or call the Gardai/County Council/Bord Pleanala/your local TD/your solicitor and get them to do something about it. If the exhaust outlet is as illegal as you say, then he will have to either raise it to an acceptable height or scrap it. Apart from that,if the property is rented, get the landlord involved, as it is affecting his property.

I contacted the council and never heard back. They own the house, I am the person renting.

Graces7 · 21-12-2020 02:50PM

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I contacted the council and never heard back. They own the house, I am the person renting.

Try EPA. They can motivate the council. Good luck as that is dreadful.

Stovepipe · 21-12-2020 04:17PM

You need to keep nagging the council and get a county councillor or a TD on your side and keep the pressure on. This is a life-critical issue so start fighting them and keep doing so. You have to have a word with the neighbour and explain to him how dangerous it is for you. Get a CO monitor and put it in your living spaces and monitor the air and show the results to the county councillor or TD. If all it takes is a few feet of stainless steel flue, get the neighbour to fit it. If he refuses, tool up a solicitor. Get onto the Consumer Rights crowd,too.

BattleCorp · 21-12-2020 04:22PM

salonfire wrote: »

Yeah but not as rude as intentionally releasing particulates into your neighbours lungs and their asthmatic/COAP/CF lungs by burning in a fireplace or stove.

How do you suggest an old person with no money heats their house then?

21-12-2020 04:23PM

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I contacted the council and never heard back. They own the house, I am the person renting.

Do they own both houses??

ercork · 21-12-2020 05:27PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

How do you suggest an old person with no money heats their house then?

Low smoke coal should be used instead of standard coal. This is a legal requirement in town/cities with a population of above 10k. It should also be recommended in smaller towns and villages.

Another option to look at is electric heating. This can actually work out cheaper than burning coal in an open fire - plus there is no air pollution and no hassle with setting the fire, cleaning the ashes, etc.

BattleCorp · 21-12-2020 05:34PM

ercork wrote: »

Low smoke coal should be used instead of standard coal. This is a legal requirement in town/cities with a population of above 10k. It should also be recommended in smaller towns and villages.

Another option to look at is electric heating. This can actually work out cheaper than burning coal in an open fire - plus there is no air pollution and no hassle with setting the fire, cleaning the ashes, etc.

I sort of agree with you. Electric is the way to go in such a scenario. But many old people are afraid of the electric bill. They've no idea how much electricity they are using so they'd have no idea how much their bill will be in two months time. It's easier for them to budget when buying bags of coal. You know exactly how much you are using and how much you are spending.

Regarding using low smoke coal v standard coal. I suppose when you are from rural Ireland, it all depends on the type of coal your local dealer is stocking.

2lazytogetup · 21-12-2020 05:36PM

there is government campaigns to reduce speed. campaigns to avoid contact and wear a mask in this covid enviornment.

but there is no government campaign regarding air pollution.

Besides where the pitches train in the GAA, parents drive right up beside the field and have their diesel engines running for the whole hour. if i was to politely ask them to turn off their engine, they would look at me funny.

When im in the shops and the person in front is buying logs for burning, they dont feel any stigma. but people in their house, or neighbours are going to bear the brunt. if i politely asked them not to burn logs, they would look at me funny.

I dont want to get dementia, or have it affect my long term health. But the majority of population dont care. if i really cared, id move to a cleaner country. not sure where that woudl be though.

mickuhaha · 21-12-2020 07:12PM

Older people do not own A rated home's.

In 2019 80% of homes in Ireland had a BER of C or lower.

No one is going to stop burning cheap solid fuel and invest heavily to replace it with electric heating.

Alot of people don't have the money.

If you force people to move away from solid fuel by increasing it's cost, your just forcing people to live in the cold. And don't tell me they need to put on a jumper. My elderly neighbors always keep on the jumpers and sit in bed when the weather is very cold.

If the government wants people to move away from solid fuel they need to be the one's that do it for them and let people continue on with their current cost of heating.

21-12-2020 07:28PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Regarding using low smoke coal v standard coal. I suppose when you are from rural Ireland, it all depends on the type of coal your local dealer is stocking.

Aye. Theyre a big part of the problem. Its only illegal to sell that coal in the restricted areas, mile outside, sell what you want, so you can drive out of your restricted area, buy your bituminous coal, and drive back in anc burn away.
As its all imported , they'll soon only be allowed stock low sulphur/smoke fuels

Seems a lot of the smokeless coal ain't that low smoke either
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/smoky-coal-labelled-as-smokeless-to-get-around-ban-says-cpl-1.4109995

ercork · 21-12-2020 08:47PM

mickuhaha wrote: »

Older people do not own A rated home's.

In 2019 80% of homes in Ireland had a BER of C or lower.

No one is going to stop burning cheap solid fuel and invest heavily to replace it with electric heating.

Alot of people don't have the money.

If you force people to move away from solid fuel by increasing it's cost, your just forcing people to live in the cold. And don't tell me they need to put on a jumper. My elderly neighbors always keep on the jumpers and sit in bed when the weather is very cold.

If the government wants people to move away from solid fuel they need to be the one's that do it for them and let people continue on with their current cost of heating.

Solid fuel is not cheap. The SEAI have produced this document to show the cost of heating using the different types of fuel:

https://www.seai.ie/publications/Domestic-Fuel-Cost-Comparison.pdf

If you have a modern well fitted stove and you use kiln dried wood then, yes, you have a fairly cheap source of heat. However, if you're burning coal in an open fire you have a very expensive source of heat. Electric heaters (which you can buy in Argos for €50) would work out cheaper to run. Also, it makes it easier to heat one room at a time if you wanted to do it that way.

An earlier poster made a good point about budgeting - the electricity bill comes in one block at the end of a two month period whereas coal can be bought from week to week. Maybe that could be overcome with level pay billing or with pay as you go electricity?

mickuhaha · 21-12-2020 10:51PM

ercork wrote: »

Solid fuel is not cheap. The SEAI have produced this document to show the cost of heating using the different types of fuel:

https://www.seai.ie/publications/Domestic-Fuel-Cost-Comparison.pdf

If you have a modern well fitted stove and you use kiln dried wood then, yes, you have a fairly cheap source of heat. However, if you're burning coal in an open fire you have a very expensive source of heat. Electric heaters (which you can buy in Argos for €50) would work out cheaper to run. Also, it makes it easier to heat one room at a time if you wanted to do it that way.

An earlier poster made a good point about budgeting - the electricity bill comes in one block at the end of a two month period whereas coal can be bought from week to week. Maybe that could be overcome with level pay billing or with pay as you go electricity?

Did you read that document and do your calculations. I didn't get out a pen and paper but in the worst option open fire vs electric there's no contest but say you move to open fire with back boiler and your back on top with solid fuel. People who have fire's at home also tend to get firewood from the odd friend who would be cutting down an old tree.

If you don't have a gas line then solid fuel it the best option for the poor.

Before the increase in tax on coal you could buy a 40kg bag of singles coal for €10(2019). It is the worst coal for burning. You give it all the air you can and it will burn and give you heat cheaply. Only people with coal fead stoves and poor people bought it but it was way cheaper then electric. If you don't have money you can burn anything and keep warm if you have no money with electricity you get no heat.

Stovepipe · 22-12-2020 12:33AM

If you don't have money you can burn anything and keep warm if you have no money with electricity you get no heat.[/QUOTE]

No truer word has been said on this thread. The Greens think we all live in some cheap fuel utopia, where everyone can afford to heat with electricity. You'll notice that a lot of the stylish modern houses featured in the TV shows about clever designs always have a stove as ultimate back up and always have solar as a back up.

mickster29 · 22-12-2020 12:34AM

Just looking for some solid advice where I might stand legally. Neighbour built a single storey extension (Dublin City). Put in a stove and transports couple of hundred bags of turf to burn in said stove. These people are financially well off and have oil central heating but now use this sparingly. The smoke coming from this flue (burning turf) comes into the rooms upstairs as well as downstairs and is extremely bad. Now I do have asthma and it has gotten worse since they started burning. I have told them that this is a health risk to my family but he doesn't give a toss. I'm living here about 25 years and am seriously thinking of just selling up. He has told me he is not acting illegally and will continue to carry on as before.

Stovepipe · 22-12-2020 12:39AM

see advice above. Get the council and local TDs involved.

Graces7 · 22-12-2020 01:47AM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I sort of agree with you. Electric is the way to go in such a scenario. But many old people are afraid of the electric bill. They've no idea how much electricity they are using so they'd have no idea how much their bill will be in two months time. It's easier for them to budget when buying bags of coal. You know exactly how much you are using and how much you are spending.

Regarding using low smoke coal v standard coal. I suppose when you are from rural Ireland, it all depends on the type of coal your local dealer is stocking.

Excellent post.

And yes, that envelope from ESB always elicits heartsink. .

I had an email yesterday from ESb to the effect that no one will be cut off this winter.

Burning low smoke here as, as you rightly say, it depends, and the shop here sells the eggs. Also I am burning very local turf. The stove is a great asset, heating water too.

You do what you need to to keep warm. It is essential.

ercork · 22-12-2020 05:54PM

mickuhaha wrote: »

Did you read that document and do your calculations. I didn't get out a pen and paper but in the worst option open fire vs electric there's no contest but say you move to open fire with back boiler and your back on top with solid fuel. People who have fire's at home also tend to get firewood from the odd friend who would be cutting down an old tree.

Cost of a unit of heat from coal in an open fire: 19c - 29c
Cost of a unit of heat from coal in an open fire with back boiler: 12c - 15c
Cost of a unit of heat from electric heaters: 21c

So you're absolutely spot on that the addition of a back boiler to an open coal fire improves the situation significantly. My post was just meant to point out the electric heating isn't always as expensive as people think and that in some instances it can be a better option - especially when you factor in how easy it is to control and zone. And that's just from an economic point of view, before you factor in the health and air quality issues with coal.

Of course anybody whose only way to avoid freezing to death in the winter is to use coal should continue to burn coal. This goes without saying. But there are plenty of people who choose coal just because they prefer it or are more used to it. I would strongly advise them to look at alternatives. Gas and oil central heating are cheaper and have little or no air quality impact. Of course heat pumps are fantastic but most houses are not of sufficient standard for them unfortunately.

Smoke Pollution in Urban Areas

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