The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

ooter · 21-12-2020 04:52PM

robbiezero wrote: »

4/6 in the bookies is a bit more than a possibility.

They were 4/6 in the bookies the other day to score 22 points or more, it didn't happen.

Bass Reeves · 21-12-2020 04:58PM

ooter wrote: »

I think if this year had been a normal year there's a good chance Kerry would've caught them.
Obviously 7 in a row is a possibility now but I honestly can't see 8, 9 or 10.

As I posted earlier up until this year I always taught that this Dublin would fade like many other. I began to have nagging doubts last year. This year you had Small, Bulger and McDaid break from not the starting 15. Last year it was Eoin Murchan, the 2 years before that Howard the other Small and Con O Callaghan. Complete HB line replaced in two years. Half the forwards replaced in 3-4 years.

Only six of the 2015 team started this year Cluxton, Cooper, McCarthy, Fenton, Kilkenny and Rock. I know no team that made such a transition without breaking there stride. IMO they are a stronger team now than 2015.

Hammer Archer · 21-12-2020 05:01PM

tritium wrote: »

The dublin template was to invest in games development to curtail the drain of young talent to other sports

It wasn’t an overnight thing. It was intended to, and did take years to bear results. It was about getting a generation involved in and staying in the clubs in their county amongst other things .

Thats also the only model that will address what you’ve described- deal with the children who are growing up there rather than the parents who moved to these areas and win their hearts and minds. It won’t be overnight any more than the work dublin did was overnight.

Unfortunately a lot of posters seem to want a solution that sees Kildare or Meath competitive next year or the year after. The only way to do that in Leinster is to hobble dublin. It will also mean that both those counties remain relatively ****e

Your post above makes it sound like the template came from Dublin. It didn't. The GAA were the ones who came up with it and helped implement it.
That model simply will not help young lads whose parents are Dublin fans and who see Dublin win over and over choose to represent the county they live in. There will be exceptions to that but it's not the same as getting a young lad to choose to play GAA over soccer or rugby.

And I'm well aware that no solution will make Kildare or Meath competitive in Leinster in the foreseeable future. Both sides have done reasonably well against stronger teams in other provinces recently but each year, the expectation in Leinster is basically "get as far as Dublin and then try your luck in the qualifiers". That's not changing for the next 10 years or so at least and I'm expecting Dublin to win each Leinster SFC title in the 2020s.
But I'm interested to hear the definition of what "hobbling" Dublin would be. I've seen some Dublin fans argue that stopping development funding would be hobbling Dublin. If that's the case then it's basically admitting that the GAA hobbled every county except Dublin for over 10 years as the games development project funding was not available to anyone but Dublin in that time.

I, personally, wouldn't be against cutting Dublin's development funding even further. The commercial revenue being taken in is enormous. Dublin county board have spent between €10 and €20 million on Spawell and Hollystown in the last 3 years without even the need to fundraise. This shows that any development funding the GAA is currently throwing their way would easily be able to be covered by the county board.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 21-12-2020 05:01PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As I posted earlier up until this year I always taught that this Dublin would fade like many other. I began to have nagging doubts last year. This year you had Small, Bulger and McDaid break from not the starting 15. Last year it was Eoin Murchan, the 2 years before that Howard the other Small and Con O Callaghan. Complete HB line replaced in two years. Half the forwards replaced in 3-4 years.

Only six of the 2015 team started this year Cluxton, Cooper, McCarthy, Fenton, Kilkenny and Rock. I know no team that made such a transition without breaking there stride. IMO they are a stronger team now than 2015.

I thought the same, but they've shown absolutely no signs of decline. Now I think other people correctly called their long lasting dominance early.

The Lost Sheep · 21-12-2020 05:05PM

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

The thing is that Dublin are streets ahead of others off the pitch which as well as on the pitch. They have a very professional administrative side with a number of full time employees (CEO, performance, marketing etc). They have a lot of full time coaches throughout the county.

How many other counties have full time staff running their affairs? Surely with sponsorship, others could look to do it?

If we are heading that way then this should become the standard and other counties need to implement something similar, as otherwise you are looking at a professional organisation versus amateur organisations for the foreseeable. This is impossible for all bar a couple of counties though unless the gaa are willing to help with the resources. I think Kildare get around 100k a year from Brady's, whereas last year Dublin had a surplus after there spending of 1.3m (this is not inclusive of the gaa development funding), so not sure how other counties are supposed to match that. Maybe kerry could, but still unlikely. It's bizarre that the GAA are subsidising coaches in wealthy clubs, in the wealthiest county when weaker counties are regressing and the gap keeps widening

The other option is to ban all full time employees at a county level and ensure the organisation is truly amateur, but I'm not sure that would be good for the game either and probably impossible to enforce.

I would be very surprised if Kildare only get 100k from Bradys.
Banning full time employees at county level would be a huge step back. Many counties have full time staff be it the secretary or another official.

Enquiring wrote: »

***Warning*** This is another post that some will find uncomfortable.

It's been touched on already but the economic situation also adds to it. I'm sure people are aware of the cost of club membership in Dublin? Compared with clubs all around the country, the fees are huge. Obviously, this assists clubs in a huge way in many areas but we'll just focus on games development.

As many will know, the Dublin only games development grant involved clubs paying for half of the full time coaches wages. So when we look at figures allocated to Dublin down through the years, if you double it, then you will see what the actual spend on coaches was per year. The fund averages around 1.5 million per year so 3 million on average was spent on coaches every year.

Of course, as noted by members of the Dublin county board, the clubs decided what work these coaches undertook as they were hired by the club effectively. So coaching teams up to minor, coaching other coaches, recruiting players from local schools etc.

Spending 3 million on coaches every year is not possible in other counties. Not even remotely. With the membership fees alluded to earlier, some clubs in Dublin now have 2 full time coaches. This shows that economic factors are an extra advantage Dublin have which adds to the lengthy list.

This also means that the 4 counties in Dublin will have this advantage. Added to the sizable population each county will have and the fact that some clubs have a set up with greater finance than many counties. Players at the clubs will have better access to competing at inter county level as well. That's something that should be welcomed.

There is little stopping clubs in other counties from combining or going alone to have someone going into local schools to coach.
One of the rugby clubs close to me doesnt have a munster development officer, clubs community officer, affiliated to them(club pays half the wage with munster paying other half) but they use some of their lotto income to pay for one of their senior team players to do his coaching courses and he now goes into a couple of primary schools in the clubs catchment area once a week to do training sessions. Nothing to stop GAA clubs doing similar.
Saying these development officers are doing the coaching up to minor isnt really the truth though. They help where its asked/theyre told by those running the clubs but like clubs nationwide its parents and interested coaches doing the job.

Mooooo wrote: »

Time for each county to look at it's own setup. Dublin have raised the bar and the rest need to start climbing. Funding may be an issue for some counties but promotion at schools and better club competitions would do a lot for most.
Here in Cork, and it's just my opinion, in both hurling and footbal the club championships are poor, and they used to contribute a lot more to the county setup back in the day imo. The splitting of the year into club and county cycles may help that. But clubs not having games for months at a time definitely hampered the development of players who could possibly have gone on to county level as well as dropping the club standard of play.
The commuter counties in particular should have enough of a population of young people to be making an impact and the GAA should really invest in schools there if they can at all. Central funding should be used there as they have been traditionally weaker counties. Would be a good thing socially as well as for the game. Know of plenty of lads who have said that if it wasnt for encouragement to play hurling there evenings would have been spent getting into the wrong activities so to speak
Maybe a Dub can confirm but I believe a lot of Dublin clubs are well able to sustain themselves along with perhaps the county board. The GAA as a whole should look across the country and see where those funding gaps are greatest and look at filling them.
Always believed the club scene is as important to the country as the county scene as it's what really develops communities but one team winning all at county level can cause problems in terms of interest diminishing as well.
Covid may have fecked it for this year funding wise but basically that's what I think should happen. More money for individual county teams is only a stopgap, country wide development is what should be targeted

When you say promotion at schools and better club competitions what do you mean exactly?

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Very simple solution for me would be to give Dublin a 6 point handicap.

I dont think that would be unreasonable.

Indeed you could go further and have a ranking system according to the past 5 championships and give all teams a handicap.

By all means knock the suggestion, but wouldnt it be nice if we had an all Ireland where Sligo or Meath actually had a chance of winning.

A handicap is far from a good idea. Name any field team sport that does this? It isnt fair or reasonable.

patsman07 wrote: »

I think if you took Dublin out of Leinster you'd find that a lot of other Leinster counties would become better almost over night. At the minute there is no realistic chance of winning a championship for any other Leinster team, hence many players decide not to play with their county. The incentive for all the effort that goes with being a part of a county set up has been taken away by Dublin's dominance. That's not Dublin's fault, but it is a fact.

How would they?
All removing Dublin would do is allow some teams go a round further in Leinster and different teams win a provincial title. It wouldnt change the fct that you have to go back to late 90s for a Leinster side other than dublin to win a national league division 1 title. That for the last few years most Leinster sides havent been near division 1 standard in the League

jmayo · 21-12-2020 05:06PM

ooter wrote: »

I think if this year had been a normal year there's a good chance Kerry would've caught them.
Obviously 7 in a row is a possibility now but I honestly can't see 8, 9 or 10.

For all the bashing Mayo often get they have consistently been the one offering most competition to Dublin's greatest ever team.

They ran them very close in a couple of All-Irelands and but for some bad luck with own goals might have actually done it.

I am tired of hearing shyte at the moment how Donegal and Kerry are the only ones to put it up to Dublin. :mad:
Well where were this year then.

Donegal haven't done it in 6 odd years.
And Kerry had their chance against 14 men for most of the match last year and didn't fooking do it.

The thing is without Mayo's close matches against Dublin and boxoffice draw that they are the whole thing could have turned into the Leinster final the last 6 or 7 years.

Yes numbers of viewers were high last year and the stadium was full once again, but that was playing on the myth of the old Kerry Dublin rivalry from the 70s.

Actually how many realise that the Tyrone-Dublin final was not a full house ???
Yep the dubs in Croker for a final and there were empty spaces.
Not many but still some.
Wait another few years and it will be noticable.

robbiezero · 21-12-2020 05:07PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

As I posted earlier up until this year I always taught that this Dublin would fade like many other. I began to have nagging doubts last year. This year you had Small, Bulger and McDaid break from not the starting 15. Last year it was Eoin Murchan, the 2 years before that Howard the other Small and Con O Callaghan. Complete HB line replaced in two years. Half the forwards replaced in 3-4 years.

Only six of the 2015 team started this year Cluxton, Cooper, McCarthy, Fenton, Kilkenny and Rock. I know no team that made such a transition without breaking there stride. IMO they are a stronger team now than 2015.

3 current All-Stars to not start in the AI (and most games of the champo?) and still coast to victory indicates serious depth in the squad now. I think they are getting stronger year on year.

Fr Tod Umptious · 21-12-2020 05:08PM

kilns wrote: »

Yes the vast majority are doing it for free for example the analysts i know for a fact do it for free. For the physios it is not their full time jobs but the quodos it brings being associated with an inter county team brings huge benefits to their private profession. But I am sure they are compensated for their expenses just like every single county does and if you deny that, then you are only kidding yourself

You dont think Mayo are handing out money and expenses to their physios and S&C coach.

Stop looking for things that arent there and making claims without any proof. Mayo could add another 10 people to their back room team if they wanted, who cares what size it is

You either missed my point because I made it poorly or you are being deliberately disingenuous.
Absolutely Mayo are handing out expenses for their S+C coaches etc

But how come one team can have 11 more of a backroom staff to do the same job as another team?

It's pretty easy to see, the team with the grater backroom staff have far more money to cover expenses etc and thus having a bigger backroom staff makes for a better prepared team and thus have an advantage.

threeball · 21-12-2020 05:08PM

tritium wrote: »

Kerry can and generally do match dublin commercial funding as detailed in this thread. I believe 2019 may be exceptional in this based on one posters figures but in general they have a superb corporate machine there, and they’re not exactly poor even allowing for their relatively fallow few years. It’s also seems a bit fuzzy for most counties what is listed as fundraising versus commercial money.

So your argument is that the first and second most successful teams have plenty of money but then argue that money isn't making a difference :rolleyes:

kilns · 21-12-2020 05:14PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

You either missed my point because I made it poorly or you are being deliberately disingenuous.
Absolutely Mayo are handing out expenses for their S+C coaches etc

But how come one team can have 11 more of a backroom staff to do the same job as another team?

It's pretty easy to see, the team with the grater backroom staff have far more money to cover expenses etc and thus having a bigger backroom staff makes for a better prepared team and thus have an advantage.

No you dont get it, the majority of the back room teams get no expenses and just do it for the love of it and being involved. If James Horan wanted 10 more analysts tomorrow he would have a mile long queue of Mayo people dying to be involved and he could have a back room team of whatever number he wanted

jmayo · 21-12-2020 05:18PM

kilns wrote: »

If Dublin were such the juggernaut many claim to be the hurlers should be able to withstand losing 2/3 potential players to the footballers. Since 2003 they have regressed simply as

If Dublin club football is not dominating then there is something wrong due to the size of the clubs that are winning the titles. Some have huge player pools and would have 5 or 6 adult teams. They are blessed by location, a rural club may get a group of gifted players together but that is once in a generation type stuff, due to natural advantages Dublin clubs will have big pools to select from

At last someone admitting the strength and domination of Dublin football, albeit only at club level.

The amount of cognitive dissonance ye lads engage in could provide work for some sort of psychologist for years.

For some unknown reason all that investment in coaching kids and attracting kids in school has supposedly had absolutely no affect on the senior teams.

Then the professional coaches with clubs helping perfect underage development supposedly has no affect on senior side.

Those kids never it seems grow up and play adult football. :rolleyes:

Now you are admitting that huge numbers playing in Dublin clubs and that they have some very sizable clubs, right ?

Let me guess that then has no effect on the Dublin county sides?

Sure everything is alright nothing to worry about because the hurlers have been under performing, albeit way above what they used to perform at pre 2005 or so. :rolleyes:

threeball · 21-12-2020 05:24PM

jmayo wrote: »

At last someone admitting the strength and domination of Dublin football, albeit only at club level.

The amount of cognitive dissonance ye lads engage in could provide work for some sort of psychologist for years.

For some unknown reason all that investment in coaching kids and attracting kids in school has supposedly had absolutely no affect on the senior teams.

Then the professional coaches with clubs helping perfect underage development supposedly has no affect on senior side.

Those kids never it seems grow up and play adult football. :rolleyes:

Now you are admitting that huge numbers playing in Dublin clubs and that they have some very sizable clubs, right ?

Let me guess that then has no effect on the Dublin county sides?

Sure everything is alright nothing to worry about because the hurlers have been under performing, albeit way above what they used to perform at pre 2005 or so. :rolleyes:

And despite the fact the CB couldn't give a toss about hurling and that has been the case for decades. Its the red headed stepchild in the capital. Put up with as it means more funds are available.

StupidLikeAFox · 21-12-2020 05:34PM

kilns wrote: »

No you dont get it, the majority of the back room teams get no expenses and just do it for the love of it and being involved. If James Horan wanted 10 more analysts tomorrow he would have a mile long queue of Mayo people dying to be involved and he could have a back room team of whatever number he wanted

You would wonder where the 1.3m that Dublin annually spend on team preparation is going then. It's not going on travel expenses and the backroom are a team of volunteers (citation needed), very curious

kilns · 21-12-2020 05:39PM

jmayo wrote: »

At last someone admitting the strength and domination of Dublin football, albeit only at club level.

The amount of cognitive dissonance ye lads engage in could provide work for some sort of psychologist for years.

For some unknown reason all that investment in coaching kids and attracting kids in school has supposedly had absolutely no affect on the senior teams.

Then the professional coaches with clubs helping perfect underage development supposedly has no affect on senior side.

Those kids never it seems grow up and play adult football. :rolleyes:

Now you are admitting that huge numbers playing in Dublin clubs and that they have some very sizable clubs, right ?

Let me guess that then has no effect on the Dublin county sides?

Sure everything is alright nothing to worry about because the hurlers have been under performing, albeit way above what they used to perform at pre 2005 or so. :rolleyes:

You are correct in what you say, Dublins advantage is the advantage of being the capital city with the biggest population, for years the natural resource at their disposal (children aged 5 -16) was never properly tapped into but structures were put in place and now clubs have benefitted from this increase in numbers 90% of kids that are reached will never ever even see their club senior team but it increases the strength and depth.

In turn Dublin has benefitted from attracting the hearts and minds of kids, Dublin will always have had the McCarthys, Fentons, Rocks and McCaffreys as they are steeped in the game but perhaps they would have picked up players that may have had gone down the soccer or rugby route. This is not a bad thing and as I said its Dublins natural advantage. Other counties simply wont even gain this advantage if they were given 10 million a year.

Nobody wants to see a one sided competition like we have now but can anyone forgive a Dublin fan the right to bask in their glory when others were laughing at them for 10 years in the 00s

The question is what can be done. the calls for defunding Dublin is mute I believe as the funding is going to the right places and children shouldnt suffer as a result.

Splitting Dublin is the hot topic currently but it solves nothing, splitting Dublin would only benefit the likes of Mayo, Kerry and Tyrone it would do nothing for the likes of Louth Leitrim and Longford

I believe that everything needs to be centralised in terms of coaching, some county boards are a joke and it is all politics which holds them back and while you have some good people in county boards they arent up to the job. Centralising a national games development would enable the very best to run the show and treat each area on a cases by case basis. For example, the likes of Belfast, Dundalk, Drogheda are really untapped and need a different approach to rural areas.

In addition, it would take probably a generation for a total buy in but the county system is not fit for purpose and needs to go. I would be in favour of approx 24 franchises to create a level playing field country wide

kilns · 21-12-2020 05:40PM

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

You would wonder where the 1.3m that Dublin annually spend on team preparation is going then. It's not going on travel expenses and the backroom are a team of volunteers (citation needed), very curious

well not on paying a kitman a wage etc

jmayo · 21-12-2020 05:51PM

kilns wrote: »

You are correct in what you say, Dublins advantage is the advantage of being the capital city with the biggest population, for years the natural resource at their disposal (children aged 5 -16) was never properly tapped into but structures were put in place and now clubs have benefitted from this increase in numbers 90% of kids that are reached will never ever even see their club senior team but it increases the strength and depth.

In turn Dublin has benefitted from attracting the hearts and minds of kids, Dublin will always have had the McCarthys, Fentons, Rocks and McCaffreys as they are steeped in the game but perhaps they would have picked up players that may have had gone down the soccer or rugby route. This is not a bad thing and as I said its Dublins natural advantage. Other counties simply wont even gain this advantage if they were given 10 million a year.

Nobody wants to see a one sided competition like we have now but can anyone forgive a Dublin fan the right to bask in their glory when others were laughing at them for 10 years in the 00s

The question is what can be done. the calls for defunding Dublin is mute I believe as the funding is going to the right places and children shouldnt suffer as a result.

Splitting Dublin is the hot topic currently but it solves nothing, splitting Dublin would only benefit the likes of Mayo, Kerry and Tyrone it would do nothing for the likes of Louth Leitrim and Longford

I believe that everything needs to be centralised in terms of coaching, some county boards are a joke and it is all politics which holds them back and while you have some good people in county boards they arent up to the job. Centralising a national games development would enable the very best to run the show and treat each area on a cases by case basis. For example, the likes of Belfast, Dundalk, Drogheda are really untapped and need a different approach to rural areas.

In addition, it would take probably a generation for a total buy in but the county system is not fit for purpose and needs to go. I would be in favour of approx 24 franchises to create a level playing field country wide

For once we agree on something the intercounty system is unworkable.

It always was to a large extent, but it has been Dublins dominance that has finally brought this home in stark reality.

I was thinking club, but again you would have much richer clubs in cities than rural.
Ultimately the game if it is to survive will have to grow around urban areas.

jmayo · 21-12-2020 05:52PM

Why do Dublin need a logistics person, they hardly go anywhere

Did you smash it · 21-12-2020 05:55PM

jmayo wrote: »

Why do Dublin need a logistics person, they hardly go anywhere

But when they do, they go in great numbers.

AlanG · 21-12-2020 05:57PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

A handicap is far from a good idea. Name any field team sport that does this? It isnt fair or reasonable.

American Football do this along with very strict funding and wage caps in order to ensure competitiveness. It has worked extremely well.

Not sure how you could implement it in GAA but it certainly works.

The Lost Sheep · 21-12-2020 05:59PM

AlanG wrote: »

American Football do this along with very strict funding and wage caps in order to ensure competitiveness. It has worked extremely well.

Not sure how you could implement it in GAA but it certainly works.

They dont do a score handicap though.
There is funding and wage caps but wage caps are irrelevant to large extent when players are not paid.
NFL is incompareable. It also has major transfer system. It doesnt have the ties to a club/team like in GAA.

ooter · 21-12-2020 06:28PM

jmayo wrote: »

For once we agree on something the intercounty system is unworkable.

It always was to a large extent, but it has been Dublins dominance that has finally brought this home in stark reality.

Yeah Kerry can win tonnes of Munster titles and more all Ireland's than any other county and win 7 sams in 9 years and almost win 5 in a rows and Shure lookit, that's grand and it's accepted as the norm, but Dublin start winning tonnes of leinsters and more all Irelands than other counties and something has to be done and it's all down to money.

StupidLikeAFox · 21-12-2020 06:30PM

kilns wrote: »

well not on paying a kitman a wage etc

The kitman probably comes free, I'll give you that

JeffKenna · 21-12-2020 06:31PM

ooter wrote: »

Yeah Kerry can win tonnes of Munster titles and more all Ireland's than any other county and win 7 sams in 9 years and almost win 5 in a rows and Shure lookit, that's grand and it's accepted as the norm, but Dublin start winning tonnes of leinsters and more all Irelands than other counties and something has to be done and it's all down to money.

I've 18m reasons to say otherwise.

ooter · 21-12-2020 06:35PM

Zero Liam McCarthys in the capital says otherwise.

ClanofLams · 21-12-2020 06:44PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

There is little stopping clubs in other counties from combining or going alone to have someone going into local schools to coach.

See post 5058 for a look at the reality of the vast majority of club finances and why this statement is incorrect.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer · 21-12-2020 06:55PM

ooter wrote: »

Zero Liam McCarthys in the capital says otherwise.

This nonsense again. Dublin hurlers started from a lower base and improved a lot after more money came in. Anyway, did you see who did win Liam this year? Limerick aren't broke.

ooter · 21-12-2020 07:02PM

Yep limerick are very unlucky not to be going for 4 in a row next year but not a whisper about money.
People think it's nonsense that Dublin senior hurlers should be winning all irelands with they money that has flooded in to the county and that's fine, entitled to that opinion.
I think it's nonsense that this Dublin football teams success is down to money and I'm entitled to that opinion.
Keep mentioning money and I'll keep mentioning hurling cos it doesn't suit the agenda.

kilns · 21-12-2020 07:03PM

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

This nonsense again. Dublin hurlers started from a lower base and improved a lot after more money came in. Anyway, did you see who did win Liam this year? Limerick aren't broke.

Would you consider winning Leinster and winning the league a low base?

Vinnie222 · 21-12-2020 07:07PM

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

This nonsense again. Dublin hurlers started from a lower base and improved a lot after more money came in. Anyway, did you see who did win Liam this year? Limerick aren't broke.

Limerick got their house in order at underage yrs ago. Seen the benefits now

ooter · 21-12-2020 07:11PM

Vinnie222 wrote: »

Limerick got their house in order at underage yrs ago. Seen the benefits now

And apparently they took advice from Dublin on the structures they were putting in place, somebody else might confirm/deny that?

The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1