The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

largepants · 21-12-2020 02:17PM

Deathknell wrote: »

Congrats to Dublin - 6 in a row is some achievement - even if it comes at a huge damage to the reputation of the competition.

Kildare and Meath, to a lesser extent Wicklow and Louth, are all counties with similar populations to Mayo, Donegal and Kerry. How they haven't put it up to Dublin, not even once in over 10 years - seems a damning indictment to their CB 'organisation' - a monument to their uselessness.

There's blame to go - all round - The GAA have created the monster - but for the surrounding counties - all of whom have had significant population increases due to Dublin's growth - seem to be standing back and waiting for someone to do it for them.

And funnily enough all those team are in Leinster.

Go figure.

the kelt · 21-12-2020 02:17PM

Achebe wrote: »

People bringing up Dublin hurling is, and always has been, a bad faith argument. They started from a lower base and have in fact shown improvement. Also, half of their best players are on the football team.

They have had a circa 400% increase in success across the board in hurling since funding came in but still people keep saying as a means of mitigation “well what about the hurlers”

FintanMcluskey · 21-12-2020 02:17PM

Strumms wrote: »

That’s not the reason for competition.

If that was the case, with Tiger Woods at his peak, they could have cancelled all golf competitions and tournaments for a decade, more.

There are plenty of examples in sport of lesser fancied teams beating the sure fire favorites.

In 1995, Everton who finished 15th in the league beat Manchester United in the FA Cup final. United finished 38 points ahead of Everton in the league. Were one point off winning it, one goal in fact.

In the Everton squad 6 out of 14 players had been capped Internationally, United squad 12 out of 14...

Oxford Languages Definition:
Competition : “the activity or condition of striving to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others”. It’s not to ‘find out’ anything.

The example you have given though is 2 professional teams competing at the highest level.

The consensus with a lot of people is that the Dubs are now a professional set up competing in an amateur competition.

The Lost Sheep · 21-12-2020 02:20PM

Deathknell wrote: »

Congrats to Dublin - 6 in a row is some achievement - even if it comes at a huge damage to the reputation of the competition.

Kildare and Meath, to a lesser extent Wicklow and Louth, are all counties with similar populations to Mayo, Donegal and Kerry. How they haven't put it up to Dublin, not even once in over 10 years - seems a damning indictment to their CB 'organisation' - a monument to their uselessness.

There's blame to go - all round - The GAA have created the monster - but for the surrounding counties - all of whom have had significant population increases due to Dublin's growth - seem to be standing back and waiting for someone to do it for them.

When has Wicklow ever been competitive?
Kildare and Meath have declined but the others werent ever really competitive.
Population alone doesnt mean you should be winning or even competitive.

tritium · 21-12-2020 02:22PM

Jizique wrote: »

Skill will always play a bigger role in hurling

I was wondering how long before the “shkill” argument would come up

All the “Dublin are just big athletic robots” shouldnt be too far behind

Dyr · 21-12-2020 02:22PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The example you have given though is 2 professional teams competing at the highest level.

The consensus with a lot of people is that the Dubs are now a professional set up competing in an amateur competition.

News to me, Dublins panel are professional?

kilns · 21-12-2020 02:24PM

Achebe wrote: »

People bringing up Dublin hurling is, and always has been, a bad faith argument. They started from a lower base and have in fact shown improvement. Also, half of their best players are on the football team.

It's a bad faith argument for those who do not wish it to be part of the argument. 7 years ago Dublin were Leinster champions and Won the league. A very high baseline by anyone's standards. Things have regressed since then but conviently ignored by those making their arguments.

tritium · 21-12-2020 02:28PM

Deathknell wrote: »

Congrats to Dublin - 6 in a row is some achievement - even if it comes at a huge damage to the reputation of the competition.

Kildare and Meath, to a lesser extent Wicklow and Louth, are all counties with similar populations to Mayo, Donegal and Kerry. How they haven't put it up to Dublin, not even once in over 10 years - seems a damning indictment to their CB 'organisation' - a monument to their uselessness.

There's blame to go - all round - The GAA have created the monster - but for the surrounding counties - all of whom have had significant population increases due to Dublin's growth - seem to be standing back and waiting for someone to do it for them.

Actually they have dramatically bigger populations. The population argument basically breaks down for those larger Leinster counties when you look at other sports.

More damning is that the back door has shown us that it’s not just good teams being held back by dublin. Even when they’ve had a back door route available theyve routinely been handed their asses by the Kerry Mayo and Tyrones. That’s hardly dublins fault. At the moment if you took dublin out of Leinster currently it would be 20 years before a Leinster team won an AI. That’s a pathetic indictment of some counties and again that’s not Dublins fault

jmayo · 21-12-2020 02:33PM

ooter wrote: »

The senior hurlers have all those advantages too but amazingly they've won nothing, who would've thunk it.

Ah yes the go to excuse.
Hurling was minority sport in Dublin so starting from very small acorn.

Then again they have won 6 Leinster minors in the last 15 years and been in 2 All Ireland finals.
Why not check out how big a jump that was in comparison to say the 40 preceeding years.

They have been in 8 u20/u21 Leinster finals winning 4 in the last 15 years and gone on to lose 2 All Ireland finals.
Once again check those results versus the preceeding decades.

In the last 10 years the Dublin senior hurling side won a National League title and a Leinster title.

And again compare that record versus the preceeding say 60 years.
And but for a disasterous managerial appointment they could have done more.
Oh and the fact they lost some of their best players to football team.

Oh and why not add in the two All Ireland club title while you are at it.

Achebe · 21-12-2020 02:33PM

kilns wrote: »

It's a bad faith argument for those who do not wish it to be part of the argument. 7 years ago Dublin were Leinster champions and Won the league. A very high baseline by anyone's standards. Things have regressed since then but conviently ignored by those making their arguments.

Their first Leinster title in 50 years! I wonder what helped that come about?

21-12-2020 02:35PM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

The sport currently is beyond redemption for about 8 reasons.
1. No one wants to split or amalgamate.
2. Dublin will always have a significant population advantage over rivals.
3. The money will always be there in Dublin.
4. Always have home advantage.
5. Always have collective training advantage as well as economic advantage for jobs and opportunities.
6. Free centres of excellence whereas others have to mostly fund their own
7. A free stadium whereas others mostly have to fund their own
8. No costs involved with travelling to matches or overnight stays in the championship etc

Looking at that list its very hard to see which ones can be taken away.

In other words there isnt a hope in hell of other counties competing. And looking at those advantages you have to hand it to Mayo and Kerry for occassionally putting it up to Dublin in the last 10 years.

And its easy to see why the championship has no future as a competitive sport. Everyone accepts its a farce at this stage. Which is a pity.

Agreed, it's not a question of blaming Dublin, they are by some distance the best team ever and have brought the game to a new level.

The problem is how do we make it more competitive without destroying the competition. Breaking up Dublin and amalgamating smaller counties would destroy the competition anyway, so not an option IMO.

Moving Dublin games might not be possible because of the financial loss in ticket sales, but it really is the only thing left to try. After that we just try the All Ireland Club League and let inter-county go the way of the railway cup.

patsman07 · 21-12-2020 02:36PM

tritium wrote: »

Actually they have dramatically bigger populations. The population argument basically breaks down for those larger Leinster counties when you look at other sports.

More damning is that the back door has shown us that it’s not just good teams being held back by dublin. Even when they’ve had a back door route available theyve routinely been handed their asses by the Kerry Mayo and Tyrones. That’s hardly dublins fault. At the moment if you took dublin out of Leinster currently it would be 20 years before a Leinster team won an AI. That’s a pathetic indictment of some counties and again that’s not Dublins fault

I think if you took Dublin out of Leinster you'd find that a lot of other Leinster counties would become better almost over night. At the minute there is no realistic chance of winning a championship for any other Leinster team, hence many players decide not to play with their county. The incentive for all the effort that goes with being a part of a county set up has been taken away by Dublin's dominance. That's not Dublin's fault, but it is a fact.

Dyr · 21-12-2020 02:37PM

tritium wrote: »

Actually they have dramatically bigger populations. The population argument basically breaks down for those larger Leinster counties when you look at other sports.

More damning is that the back door has shown us that it’s not just good teams being held back by dublin. Even when they’ve had a back door route available theyve routinely been handed their asses by the Kerry Mayo and Tyrones. That’s hardly dublins fault. At the moment if you took dublin out of Leinster currently it would be 20 years before a Leinster team won an AI. That’s a pathetic indictment of some counties and again that’s not Dublins fault

We could split the "big" counties in Leinster up into the other provinces and watch Meath and Kildare come up with new excuses as to why they cant win Munster, Ulster or Connacht either.

kilns · 21-12-2020 02:42PM

Achebe wrote: »

Their first Leinster title in 50 years! I wonder what helped that come about?

Yes it was backboned by a exceptional core group of players who were successful at minor lead by final Keaney.

21-12-2020 02:42PM

tritium wrote: »

Actually they have dramatically bigger populations. The population argument basically breaks down for those larger Leinster counties when you look at other sports.

Their populations range from 130K in Mayo to 222K in Kildare, not even double so that's not true.

tritium · 21-12-2020 02:47PM

patsman07 wrote: »

I think if you took Dublin out of Leinster you'd find that a lot of other Leinster counties would become better almost over night. At the minute there is no realistic chance of winning a championship for any other Leinster team, hence many players decide not to play with their county. The incentive for all the effort that goes with being a part of a county set up has been taken away by Dublin's dominance. That's not Dublin's fault, but it is a fact.

No they really wouldn’t. If that was true they’d be snatching the chance the back door provides to get to the bigger prize of an AI. The truth is with or without Dublin in the Leinster mix Meath and Kildare would still be getting a hiding from Kerry and Mayo. And fans from those two counties would be all misty eyed at the “pure shkill” while fans from the Leinster counties found some other excuse for being so ****e. All that would be different is they could parade a Leinster title around and pretend it mattered in terms of their place in the pecking order

To be clear, lots of folks have said how other counties can’t do the dublin model. Meath and Kildare are actually pretty well placed to copy or modify that model of almost all counties- large populations, relatively manageable distances good infrastructure. Hell if they want to play all their games in croke park so they’re used to it then go for it- it can be their home ground if it’s so mystical

Someone going to have to come up with a plan like the blue wave to make it happen though. I’m not sure I should hold my breath

kilns · 21-12-2020 02:48PM

jmayo wrote: »

Ah yes the go to excuse.
Hurling was minority sport in Dublin so starting from very small acorn.

Then again they have won 6 Leinster minors in the last 15 years and been in 2 All Ireland finals.
Why not check out how big a jump that was in comparison to say the 40 preceeding years.

They have been in 8 u20/u21 Leinster finals winning 4 in the last 15 years and gone on to lose 2 All Ireland finals.
Once again check those results versus the preceeding decades.

In the last 10 years the Dublin senior hurling side won a National League title and a Leinster title.

And again compare that record versus the preceeding say 60 years.
And but for a disasterous managerial appointment they could have done more.
Oh and the fact they lost some of their best players to football team.

Oh and why not add in the two All Ireland club title while you are at it.

But so many of the arguments are that money has made Dublin into an unstoppable monster. 7 years ago Dublin had a high hurling baseline but have gone backwards since then and are no where near winning an all Ireland.

It's hard to admit for Dublin fans but hurling is not improving

tritium · 21-12-2020 02:48PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Their populations range from 130K in Mayo to 222K in Kildare, not even double so that's not true.

That close to 100k extra people with the gap increasing. That’s before you consider age demographics

21-12-2020 02:51PM

tritium wrote: »

That close to 100k extra people with the gap increasing. That’s before you consider age demographics

It's ok to be wrong, you were wrong.

How about a few more posts about "shkill"?

tritium · 21-12-2020 02:53PM

jmayo wrote: »

Ah yes the go to excuse.
Hurling was minority sport in Dublin so starting from very small acorn.

Then again they have won 6 Leinster minors in the last 15 years and been in 2 All Ireland finals.
Why not check out how big a jump that was in comparison to say the 40 preceeding years.

They have been in 8 u20/u21 Leinster finals winning 4 in the last 15 years and gone on to lose 2 All Ireland finals.
Once again check those results versus the preceeding decades.

In the last 10 years the Dublin senior hurling side won a National League title and a Leinster title.

And again compare that record versus the preceeding say 60 years.
And but for a disasterous managerial appointment they could have done more.
Oh and the fact they lost some of their best players to football team.

Oh and why not add in the two All Ireland club title while you are at it.

Jesus not content with making excuses for other counties you’re now making excuses for the Dublin hurlers

ArielAtom · 21-12-2020 02:53PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

The example you have given though is 2 professional teams competing at the highest level.

The consensus with a lot of people is that the Dubs are now a professional set up competing in an amateur competition.

Are you accusing the DCB of paying its players. That’s the definition of a professional sportsperson? If you have proof, I’d love to see it.

tritium · 21-12-2020 02:57PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's ok to be wrong, you were wrong.

How about a few more posts about "shkill"?

I really wasn’t, 220k people in Kildare, with an average age of under 35. Mayos average is 40.2. Yet Mayo are the one getting to a stack of AI finals. Go figure

crossman47 · 21-12-2020 02:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Except when they win, eh?

True. People always jump on a bandwagon.

Deathknell · 21-12-2020 02:59PM

patsman07 wrote: »

I think if you took Dublin out of Leinster you'd find that a lot of other Leinster counties would become better almost over night. At the minute there is no realistic chance of winning a championship for any other Leinster team, hence many players decide not to play with their county. The incentive for all the effort that goes with being a part of a county set up has been taken away by Dublin's dominance. That's not Dublin's fault, but it is a fact.

I'd like to see the evidence for that. Genuinely.

Its time to stop guessing at the reasons - not saying you are doing that - but facts are far more illuminating than opinions.

21-12-2020 03:02PM

tritium wrote: »

I really wasn’t, 220k people in Kildare, with an average age of under 35. Mayos average is 40.2. Yet Mayo are the one getting to a stack of AI finals. Go figure

You were wrong and are still wrong even with your added figures.

Did you smash it · 21-12-2020 03:04PM

Strumms wrote: »

That’s not the reason for competition.

If that was the case, with Tiger Woods at his peak, they could have cancelled all golf competitions and tournaments for a decade, more.

There are plenty of examples in sport of lesser fancied teams beating the sure fire favorites.

In 1995, Everton who finished 15th in the league beat Manchester United in the FA Cup final. United finished 38 points ahead of Everton in the league. Were one point off winning it, one goal in fact.

In the Everton squad 6 out of 14 players had been capped Internationally, United squad 12 out of 14...

Oxford Languages Definition:
Competition : “the activity or condition of striving to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others”. It’s not to ‘find out’ anything.

The reason to play a competition is to find out the best. If one team is unbeatable then the competition is pointless so just end or ignore it.

ooter · 21-12-2020 03:05PM

It's gas the way people focus solely on how the Dublin senior footballers are doing in Leinster and the all Ireland and never mention how any of the underage teams or senior club sides are doing but when the Dublin senior hurlers are used as a comparison to the footballers everything Dublin hurling have won in underage and what senior clubs have won is trotted out.

Titzon Toast · 21-12-2020 03:06PM

Lexie Icy Tremor wrote: »

Munster was never really competitive outside of Cork and Kerry. Leinster championship used be one of the great competitions. But like everything else ruined by Dublin money

Agreed, I heard they're even blending up the money and adding it to the player's soup. And that's on top of the mass amounts of cash that they pay the players too. Scandalous.

StupidLikeAFox · 21-12-2020 03:09PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Agreed, it's not a question of blaming Dublin, they are by some distance the best team ever and have brought the game to a new level.

The problem is how do we make it more competitive without destroying the competition. Breaking up Dublin and amalgamating smaller counties would destroy the competition anyway, so not an option IMO.

Moving Dublin games might not be possible because of the financial loss in ticket sales, but it really is the only thing left to try. After that we just try the All Ireland Club League and let inter-county go the way of the railway cup.

The thing is that Dublin are streets ahead of others off the pitch which as well as on the pitch. They have a very professional administrative side with a number of full time employees (CEO, performance, marketing etc). They have a lot of full time coaches throughout the county.

If we are heading that way then this should become the standard and other counties need to implement something similar, as otherwise you are looking at a professional organisation versus amateur organisations for the foreseeable. This is impossible for all bar a couple of counties though unless the gaa are willing to help with the resources. I think Kildare get around 100k a year from Brady's, whereas last year Dublin had a surplus after there spending of 1.3m (this is not inclusive of the gaa development funding), so not sure how other counties are supposed to match that. Maybe kerry could, but still unlikely. It's bizarre that the GAA are subsidising coaches in wealthy clubs, in the wealthiest county when weaker counties are regressing and the gap keeps widening

The other option is to ban all full time employees at a county level and ensure the organisation is truly amateur, but I'm not sure that would be good for the game either and probably impossible to enforce.

Hammer Archer · 21-12-2020 03:09PM

tritium wrote: »

That close to 100k extra people with the gap increasing. That’s before you consider age demographics

With all due respect, have you ever considered where the majority of Meath and Kildare's population increases over the last 20 years or so have come from? And why these extra people may not really want to play for the county they live in?

For example, Darren Daly won four All-Irelands and plays with Fingal Ravens, even though he lives in Ratoath in Meath. There are literally thousands of families in Meath and Kildare who are Dubs through and through. And while some may play with their local clubs, very few of them would really consider putting on the Meath or Kildare jersey.

The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1