Do dating 'leagues' exist?

Real Social Dynamics. The successor to the Speed Seduction gig. Or the Seducation.Alt.Fast rubbish.

While there are minor nuggets of useful information to help understand women, and yourself, they're covered in piles upon piles of BS layered with NLP key words. Meh.

Keep it simple. Be honest with yourself and with your date. Don't be a dick. And don't compromise your values for sex. That's the only info you need to get started. It's not hard.. in spite of people thinking that it is...

I find people make the whole activity far more complicated/difficult than it needs to be... and then go looking for a messiah/guru to help them solve the problems, that they themselves created. And, Yes, I did the whole 9 yards of Speed Seduction, with Ross Jeffries, David D, Mystery, etc.. which is why I am saying it's over-complicated rubbish...

Nick Biddle, Just to add... pushing this crap on boards will have the thread shut down quick... Best avoid pushing this stuff, and be more circular with your discussion.

Wibbs wrote: »

It doesn't exactly work there either, though their mating and dating market is quite different in many ways. Most of those PUA type vids are carefully edited(the women who told the weirdo to head off for a start), or are just entry conversations that go nowhere towards any action, or interactions with drunk women at last orders, a fave it seems of yer man in that vid(down the years I've deleted so many of those vids as a mod of different forums, but I have looked at a few of them out of curiosity) or quite simply faked. A lot of them have been exposed down the years as fake as fook.

Yes, and no. The problem is that the PUA scene is mostly orientated around American cultural structure.

The thing is that American culture can often be very rigid in social status, whereby people are placed within set roles, which start in their teens but extend into their adulthood. You can see it in their high schools, where you will have the football guys, the quarterback, the cheerleaders, the cool girls, the geeks, etc. There are roles and categories which many people get assigned to and that affects how they develop. Further along, there are the host of competitive competitions such as beauty pagents, dance competitions, acting jobs, etc all of which focus on appearance, the promotion of a certain type of beauty, and "proper" behavior.

That feeds into how people interact with each other in dating, and interpersonal interactions. Roles shape the individual, and while they will have their own quirks, they'll also be conforming to set pieces of attitudes and behavior. Simple psychology, and observation can show the patterns that exist, and PUA seeks to take advantage of these patterns.

For Ireland, or Europe, though, is that we, typically, don't have the same emphasis on social roles, similar to what happens in the US. We're far more individualistic in how we develop, and while there are some common ways in which people might pursue their own future self, mostly we're independent of each other. In many ways, Europeans prize individuality far more than Americans do. The movie Grease is a great spin on all that US crap.. and it's still reasonably accurate today for many parts of America.

Very much so Anewme, but this stuff is marketed to and tailored for the demographic of usually young men who are introverted, socially awkward, all the way up to lads on the Asperger spectrum. So you see the creep and cringe, but almost by definition those lads won't.

True enough. The PUA scene is based on manipulation, and the people who put out these courses are very focused on manipulating their consumer base to make sales.

The reason many of them are struggling with chatting to women and/or dating in the first place is an inability to read social cues even basic ones. The guy in that no doubt soon to be gone vid comes across as "one of their own who did good", so that appeals even more to the market segment. Sells better. To me personally he comes across as very "off", hyper with no brakes concentrating on not being weird and failing. The idea of a complex "system" a cheat code for women also appeals to this demographic.

A cheat code, or an easy way to learn appeals to everyone. It's not only for this demographic.

And dating can be extremely confusing. Society tells you one way to behave, usually based on out-dated advice, while media suggests other ways. All of which needs to be implemented, under a state of a person lacking confidence, and disasters happen. I can remember my own attempts at dating, and while a lot of my failures came about from my own problems, there was also a lot of miscommunication by the women (or men) involved.

The problem is that understanding other people takes time to develop. We don't, naturally, understand that others are as messed up and confused as we are, so we approach dating from an angle of insecurity. Assuming that others are better informed than we are about their own internal processes, and thoughts. That others will never be confused about their own feelings and desires. Nope. Only the person seeking to start dating has those problems... which limits the ability to empathize with others, and seek answers out-of-the-box.

Is there a need or opening for help for guys like the above awkward lads? I'd say so, but at the moment their only options are the usual "go to counselling" which IMHO might be somewhat helpful, but too much of it is unproven soft science, or people giving the utterly useless advice of "just be yourself" or "what's for you won't go by you".

Or these PUA "gurus" who promise the earth appear to get resulst but keep guys coming back obsessively to sell stuff to them. Those training camps they have are crazy expensive. Like thousands per head kinda thing. The "free" youtube stuff is the advertising front for them. Standard shill the sucker first drink is free in the club type stuff. And that's before we get into the often well dodgy misogynist and right wing politics that whole PUA crowd tend to attract and often encourage.

Ahh well, Wibbs, here we differ. I did the circuit for years. I went to the seminars by the "greats", in Ireland, the UK, and even in the US. I got to personally know many of the biggest "players" on the PUA scene, and while I agree that a large percentage (80%) is awful rubbish, there are some nuggets of gold in there.. and some of the guys involved in this, started the same as the guys they aim to teach. The problem being that this is a personality driven media industry, and these guys quickly come to believe their **** smells of roses.

My own "game" improved a million times from what I was like before I started the PUA (Although this was kinda pre-maintstream PUA). A lot of that was personal confidence, but that confidence happened because of the drills I did as part of the various courses. I didn't do any of the more negative and sadistic sides of PUA. It wasn't my thing, but I did focus heavily on the "Essential Skills" or the NLP side of things, with a greater interest in personal states, meditation, and holistic approaches to improving my own value in life. (all of which came as advice from people within the PUA community. There just wasn't any similar interest or availability of information when I was in Ireland. At least I wasn't aware of it.)

The PUA approach has limited value in Ireland or Europe. It's simply the wrong approach. It works, somewhat, for the US, because it's easy to find the wannabe beauty queen, and play her attitudes to direct her attention.. but as with most things in the US, it's incredibly superficial. Great for casual sex. Pretty awful for anything more worthwhile.