3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

Dohvolle · 12-12-2020 4:08pm

I used to love calling harbour traffic monitoring over VHF years ago. "Scheveningen Radio". It just rolls off the tongue.
That and PTT Telia when you needed to make an international phone call.
Dutch is a beautiful language.

Dohvolle · 12-12-2020 4:09pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you expected an exercise involving a whole brigade?

Do we even have a full brigade at home any more?

ohnonotgmail · 12-12-2020 4:26pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Do we even have a full brigade at home any more?

we have two apparently, southern and eastern.

Dohvolle · 12-12-2020 5:28pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we have two apparently, southern and eastern.

Yes, but they aren't all at home. If you combined both who are not overseas, would you have one full brigade?

ohnonotgmail · 12-12-2020 5:54pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Yes, but they aren't all at home. If you combined both who are not overseas, would you have one full brigade?

we have about 600 overseas right now out of a full complement of 7K+. I think we could manage to scrounge up a brigade.

Dohvolle · 12-12-2020 6:32pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we have about 600 overseas right now out of a full complement of 7K+. I think we could manage to scrounge up a brigade.

With their vehicles & Artillery?

Larbre34 · 12-12-2020 6:39pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we have about 600 overseas right now out of a full complement of 7K+. I think we could manage to scrounge up a brigade.

No, we couldn't.

A Brigade isn't just about numbers, its about the contributory Corps units that make up the various functions that make a Brigade formation effective while deployed. Logistics and supply, recon, artillery, armour, medical, comms, intelligence and battlefield air support before you even get to the infantry element.

Given the crisis in manpower of all DF elements, I think a batallion is about all we could muster up to function effectively just now, not a Brigade.

ohnonotgmail · 12-12-2020 8:04pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

No, we couldn't.

A Brigade isn't just about numbers, its about the contributory Corps units that make up the various functions that make a Brigade formation effective while deployed. Logistics and supply, recon, artillery, armour, medical, comms, intelligence and battlefield air support before you even get to the infantry element.

Given the crisis in manpower of all DF elements, I think a batallion is about all we could muster up to function effectively just now, not a Brigade.

we have two brigade less the units that are overseas. are you seriously telling me couldn't scrounge 1 brigade out of the remainder? If we can only manage a battalion out of a force of 7K+ then we may as well disband the defence forces because they aren't worth a tinkers curse.

Dohvolle · 12-12-2020 10:30pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we have two brigade less the units that are overseas. are you seriously telling me couldn't scrounge 1 brigade out of the remainder? If we can only manage a battalion out of a force of 7K+ then we may as well disband the defence forces because they aren't worth a tinkers curse.

Your logic makes no sense. Throw the baby out with the bathwater?
We are woefully under equipped. Our ORBAT exists on paper only. We have no shortage of infantry soldiers (all soldiers are infantrymen first), but we don't have enough armour or artillery, or medium and heavy transport to carry them all together.
It has always been that way, in the hope that, when needed, the actual equipment will then be provided. No point in having it all gather dust in the meantime, seems to be the attitude.
We did brigade size exercises during the early 2000s, when we had three actual brigades, which was mirrored in the reserve. These exercises requires the other 2 brigades, plus reserves, to fill the gaps the exercising units would normally have filled. If the 1st southern were on ex, their 3 Bns would borrow equipment from either of the other 2, so their people could get to experience what a full brigade looks like on the move. Reducing the Army to 2 brigades plus made those type of exercise impossible. There are numerous daily commitments that mean we do not have the luxury of having a brigade free to head off on a large scale ex any more.

Larbre34 · 12-12-2020 11:09pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

we have two brigade less the units that are overseas. are you seriously telling me couldn't scrounge 1 brigade out of the remainder? If we can only manage a battalion out of a force of 7K+ then we may as well disband the defence forces because they aren't worth a tinkers curse.

That's exactly what I'm telling you.

a) for all the reasons I mentioned above and b) the DF are not put together in such a way as to be deployed in Brigade strength anyway, never in their history really. The Brigade is just used as an an organisational hierarchy model.

I disagree with you that the DF aren't worth a tinkers curse. There are exceptional people serving. They need proper funding for a modern national homeland defence platform and to be reorganised so that they are deployable as a light/mech infantry at home and abroad. The push for this is building.

ohnonotgmail · 12-12-2020 11:15pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm telling you.

a) for all the reasons I mentioned above and b) the DF are not put together in such a way as to be deployed in Brigade strength anyway, never in their history really. The Brigade is just used as an an organisational hierarchy model.

I disagree with you that the DF aren't worth a tinkers curse. There are exceptional people serving. They need proper funding for a modern national homeland defence platform and to be reorganised so that they are deployable as a light/mech infantry at home and abroad. The push for this is building.

if we are not going to fund them properly what is the point in funding a force that such limited capabilities?

punchdrunk · 13-12-2020 12:20am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if we are not going to fund them properly what is the point in funding a force that such limited capabilities?

Because like many services in this country it allows the government to engage in tokenism, a facade of preparedness and being proactive rather than actually being prepared.

jonnybigwallet · 13-12-2020 9:22am

They should never have got rid of the light tanks for starters, and some replacements would be a good investment. Them new German jobbies are first class! I think it has been mooted that they reverse recent reorganization and reinstate the 3 brigade structure. I'm all in favour of that.

Dohvolle · 13-12-2020 10:40am

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

They should never have got rid of the light tanks for starters, and some replacements would be a good investment. Them new German jobbies are first class! I think it has been mooted that they reverse recent reorganization and reinstate the 3 brigade structure. I'm all in favour of that.

We never had light tanks.

We had a tracked reconnaissance vehicle with an obsolete main gun, which was never deployed overseas, and had limited practical usefulness at home. It served unchanged for about 20 years longer than it should have.
Of greater priority is replacement of the AML90, which deployed overseas as soon as it entered service, and actually fired its main gun in anger. Since it's retirement we have no armoured vehicle capable of killing another armoured vehicle with one shot.

None of which has anything to do with 3 new navy ships.

Dohvolle · 13-12-2020 10:41am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

if we are not going to fund them properly what is the point in funding a force that such limited capabilities?

Thats exactly what the DoD think every year, before proposing a smaller defence Budget to the Minister for finance.

ohnonotgmail · 13-12-2020 1:41pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

We never had light tanks.

We had a tracked reconnaissance vehicle with an obsolete main gun, which was never deployed overseas, and had limited practical usefulness at home. It served unchanged for about 20 years longer than it should have.
Of greater priority is replacement of the AML90, which deployed overseas as soon as it entered service, and actually fired its main gun in anger. Since it's retirement we have no armoured vehicle capable of killing another armoured vehicle with one shot.

None of which has anything to do with 3 new navy ships.

the scorpion was classed as a light tank.

Larbre34 · 14-12-2020 3:21am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the scorpion was classed as a light tank.

No it wasn't. It was a Combat Vehicle Recon - Tracked, an armoured fire support platform.

The model was deployed as light tank in some militaries, but typically had enhanced armour and a 90mm main gun.

Dohvolle · 14-12-2020 4:43am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the scorpion was classed as a light tank.

....By nobody.
It was a tracked version of the Fox Scout car, and the Scimitar and Fox shared a gun and Turret. It shared a chassis and powertrain with a fleet of tracked armoured vehicles, none of which were considered tanks.
Even the Irish Defence Forces renamed 1st Tank Squadron to 1st Armoured Cavalry Squadron on the introduction of the Scorps, even though some people still called them the Tank Sqn, in the same way as some people still called the other Cavalry Squadrons the Motor squadrons.
Everyone in Cav called them Cars. Ideal for tooteling around the Glen of Imaal, their low ground pressure suiting the mountain bog. Occasional treks, initially on low loader, and later via DROPS, to large exercises in Kilworth or Shannon Airport. Quite nippy for a tracked vehicle. Same Jag 4.2 Litre engine as seen on the XJ6, E-Type and Daimler Limousine

The last tank used by the Irish Defence Forces was the Comet Cruiser Tank, which entered service in 1959, was obsolete soon after, but remained on strength until the early 80s. They fired their guns for the last time in 1973.

None of which has anything to do with the new ships the navy got.

ohnonotgmail · 14-12-2020 10:10am

Dohvolle wrote: »

....By nobody.
It was a tracked version of the Fox Scout car, and the Scimitar and Fox shared a gun and Turret. It shared a chassis and powertrain with a fleet of tracked armoured vehicles, none of which were considered tanks.
Even the Irish Defence Forces renamed 1st Tank Squadron to 1st Armoured Cavalry Squadron on the introduction of the Scorps, even though some people still called them the Tank Sqn, in the same way as some people still called the other Cavalry Squadrons the Motor squadrons.
Everyone in Cav called them Cars. Ideal for tooteling around the Glen of Imaal, their low ground pressure suiting the mountain bog. Occasional treks, initially on low loader, and later via DROPS, to large exercises in Kilworth or Shannon Airport. Quite nippy for a tracked vehicle. Same Jag 4.2 Litre engine as seen on the XJ6, E-Type and Daimler Limousine

The last tank used by the Irish Defence Forces was the Comet Cruiser Tank, which entered service in 1959, was obsolete soon after, but remained on strength until the early 80s. They fired their guns for the last time in 1973.

None of which has anything to do with the new ships the navy got.

the scorpion was not based on the fox scout car. this is the fox

Fox_Scout_Car_(6553547749).jpg

this is the scorpion

OIP.0IA08cazwbaVJtTYALeHYAAAAA?w=183&h=180&c=7&o=5&dpr=1.5&pid=1.7

sure they're practically twins. :rolleyes:

the scorpion was a variant of the FV432.

the fox turret was used on the Saber variant of the FV432. the Scorpion is not a tracked version of the Fox.

Dohvolle · 14-12-2020 10:49am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the scorpion was not based on the fox scout car. this is the fox

this is the scorpion

sure they're practically twins. :rolleyes:

the scorpion was a variant of the FV432.

the fox turret was used on the Saber variant of the FV432. the Scorpion is not a tracked version of the Fox.

Ye see, now you are just talking nonsense.
FV721 Fox: Combat Vehicle Recon (Wheeled)
FV101 family, Scorpion/Scimitar: Combat Vehicle Recon (Tracked).
The FV101 was developed in 1967.
The FV721 was developed under the same program for the British army in 1965
The FV432 is the UK answer to the M110. It was replaced in some roles by the FV103
The Scimitar and Fox shared a main weapon. When the Fox was retired, it's turrets went onto the old Scorpions, which then became Sabre.

ohnonotgmail · 14-12-2020 11:07am

Dohvolle wrote: »

Ye see, now you are just talking nonsense.
FV721 Fox: Combat Vehicle Recon (Wheeled)
FV101 family, Scorpion/Scimitar: Combat Vehicle Recon (Tracked).
The FV101 was developed in 1967.
The FV721 was developed under the same program for the British army in 1965
The FV432 is the UK answer to the M110. It was replaced in some roles by the FV103
The Scimitar and Fox shared a main weapon. When the Fox was retired, it's turrets went onto the old Scorpions, which then became Sabre.

No, you're right I should have said FV101 not 432. The rest still stands. the scorpion is not the tracked version of the fox. they share nothing in common.

Dohvolle · 14-12-2020 12:12pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

No, you're right I should have said FV101 not 432. The rest still stands. the scorpion is not the tracked version of the fox. they share nothing in common.

Just the turret.
And the sighting system.
And their battlefield function.
And on the Scimitar, the gun, with its silly 3 round clip.
Now put away your "Big book of Tanks" you are out of your league here.

none of which has anything to do with ships.

ohnonotgmail · 14-12-2020 12:20pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

Just the turret.
And the sighting system.
And their battlefield function.
And on the Scimitar, the gun, with its silly 3 round clip.
Now put away your "Big book of Tanks" you are out of your league here.

none of which has anything to do with ships.

the scorpion and the fox do not share a turret. the scorpion had a 76mm and the fox had a 30mm. you've already embarrassed yourself enough so you are better off stopping now.

It was a tracked version of the Fox Scout car

funniest thing I've read in years.

Manic Moran · 16-12-2020 12:45am

Ok. Definitively.
Turrets =/= armament.

Scimitar 30mm turret and Sabre (Fox) 30mm turrets are not identical. Similar enough that you need to take a closer look (Sabre is a bit rounder and lower), but the shapes are not the same. Scimitar and Scorpion turrets are basically the same bar the mantlets, subject to the requirements of the 76mm vs 30mm cannons.

Scorpion (76mm) was designed as a recon vehicle, but appears to have been classified in service in the light tank role by the Irish.

And so we shall now go back to ships.

murf · 16-12-2020 10:50am

Manic Moran wrote: »

And so we shall now go back to ships.

Let's link the two - Landships! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lvzY23UrSM

Yawlboy · 16-12-2020 10:58am

Naval 40mm beats 30mm on the Land Ships

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZLGQJReEU

source · 16-12-2020 11:28am

Yawlboy wrote: »

Naval 40mm beats 30mm on the Land Ships

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbZLGQJReEU

As a former ackack man it pains me to see an L70 with it's barrel so low.

V8 Interceptor · 16-12-2020 1:44pm

Dohvolle wrote: »

The last tank used by the Irish Defence Forces was the Comet Cruiser Tank, which entered service in 1959, was obsolete soon after, but remained on strength until the early 80s. They fired their guns for the last time in 1973.

Pretty sure I remember Tanks rolling through Dublin, Easter 2016?

Yawlboy · 16-12-2020 2:15pm

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Pretty sure I remember Tanks rolling through Dublin, Easter 2016?

APCs not Tanks I believe :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbYS6rAxy04

Plumbthedepths · 16-12-2020 2:36pm

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Pretty sure I remember Tanks rolling through Dublin, Easter 2016?

Scorpions, tracked reconn vehicles ( or light tanks to some).

3 New Navy Vessels for Irish Naval Service

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