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Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

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    #2222
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,077 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    lazygal wrote: »
    The anti choice campaign have brought over US anti choice campaingers to train and advise their younger cohort especially. They've advised them the best way to proceed is to chip away at access because they've no chance of overturning the whole system of abortion provision. So I expect there will be an exclusive focus on so called late term abortions, with a heavy emphasis on how these are carried out and the doctors who don't want to provide this health care.
    Of course, these people oppose all abortion, be it at three days, three months or 33 weeks, so they're being entirely disingenuous when they use one particular set of abortions as their focus. But they know most people in Ireland voted for abortion access so they want to use what they consider the extreme end to work away at trying to make abortion progressively more difficult to access.
    There should be no legal limit on abortion. It is health care and being prescriptive about it in law makes no sense. Might as well dictate when c sections should be allowed. I strongly suspect the govt parties will make noises about how the people voted on the proposed 2018 legislation so no changes of any real substance will be made and people who need healthcare after 12 weeks of pregnancy who can't access it here will still have to travel.

    100% agree. Also, no more 3 day 'cooling off' nonsense. Just putting women on the back foot, which is what anti-choice has always been about. You should never be required to travel abroad from Ireland for medical care, especially safe well proven medical care.


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    #2223
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users Posts: 9,338 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I’m not looking forward to more abortion debate.

    Hah I wonder how many users of the site read the story and thought "Oh crap we're gonna get an ass load more of nozzferrahhtoo now arent we".

    Think even the people who agree with me on the issue(s) were/are sick of me at this stage :)


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    #2224
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I’d forgotten the legislation is coming up for review. Don’t know about anyone else but I’m not looking forward to more abortion debate.

    I am

    This is only abortion law mk.1. The bare minimum.

    We need to liberalise the law substantially.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2225
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    There should never have been a compromise on non fatal anomalies.


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    #2226
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    lazygal wrote: »
    There should never have been a compromise on non fatal anomalies.

    Yes that's been a problem. Predictably. It's not like women weren't traveling for that reason before the reform.

    I suspect the recent article(s) about medical staff supposedly being traumatised by carrying out late terminations was in preparation for this review, so they'll be looking to reduce that access, not broaden it.


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    #2227
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    The medical staff being traumatised isn't a reason to reduce access. Better training is required. Its clearly a clumsy attempt by anti choice elements in the medical profession to chip away at access.


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    #2228
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    lazygal wrote: »
    The medical staff being traumatised isn't a reason to reduce access. Better training is required. Its clearly a clumsy attempt by anti choice elements in the medical profession to chip away at access.

    And I don't even know that they were, because the study itself was behind a paywall so all I saw of it was how it was being spun by Iona-heads.

    That said, I'm sure it's a terrible situation to be in - but that's a result of the terrible diagnosis. It's not because couples are just rocking up for late abortions for the heck of it. I don't think sending them off to England was really any better, except in an "out of sight out of mind" way. Nor could sending them home to wait and then dealing with a dying baby and distraught parents a few months later be any easier.


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    #2229
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Renua being as classless as ever.

    https://twitter.com/RENUAIreland/status/1335262239893368834?s=19
    RENUA IRELAND
    @RENUAIreland
    ·
    Dec 5
    If Min. McEntee can rightly recognise the humanity of her own unborn child (baby on board) then she can surely accept that the thousands of unborn children killed under her party's abortion regime were human too - as deserving of life as all humans.
    Justice Minister Helen McEntee announces pregnancy
    McEntee is the first woman to announce a pregnancy while in Cabinet.
    thejournal.ie
    RENUA IRELAND
    @RENUAIreland
    ·
    Dec 5
    6,666 lives snuffed out, spare us the faux outrage. Is it only a baby when it's wanted?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2230
    aloyisious
    Registered Users Posts: 11,561 ✭✭✭✭aloyisious


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Renua being as classless as ever.

    https://twitter.com/RENUAIreland/status/1335262239893368834?s=19

    Pointless pointing out to them that our country's governments [including the ones Renua's forebears were in] had an abortion policy prior to the legalisation of terminations here and that policy was to silently, complicitly, go along with the terminations to be done abroad - the three wise monkeys trick.


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    #2231
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,728 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    I see in the Irish Times today that according to the Catholic Church it is ‘Morally permissible’ for Catholics to accept Covid-19 vaccine which uses aborted foetal cells. Seems like the height of hypocrisy from where I'm sitting though not sure what else they could say.


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    #2232
    Bredabe
    Registered Users Posts: 4,024 ✭✭✭Bredabe


    smacl wrote: »
    I see in the Irish Times today that according to the Catholic Church it is ‘Morally permissible’ for Catholics to accept Covid-19 vaccine which uses aborted foetal cells. Seems like the height of hypocrisy from where I'm sitting though not sure what else they could say.

    I read that, who but them would thinking of such a thing, especially in a lifesaving vaccine.
    IMO more evidence of their fixation on things none of their business.
    Surely saving a life is a life saved? looking too closely at the details of that is just looking for something to depress themselves with. funny tho, when I was growning up things were always god's will and had to be quietly accepted. Seems that doesn't apply to the clergy.

    "Have you ever wagged your tail so hard you fell over"?-Brod Higgins.



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    #2233
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,728 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Bredabe wrote: »
    I read that, who but them would thinking of such a thing, especially in a lifesaving vaccine.
    IMO more evidence of their fixation on things none of their business.
    Surely saving a life is a life saved? looking too closely at the details of that is just looking for something to depress themselves with. funny tho, when I was growning up things were always god's will and had to be quietly accepted. Seems that doesn't apply to the clergy.

    Yep, god's will or, failing all else, mysterious ways. Their PR people seem to be losing their touch. ;)


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    #2234
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Whisper it but there are all sorts of human cell lines being used in research, one of the most famous ones derives from a cell culture taken without consent from a woman who died in 1951.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

    The Nazis did research into immersion hypothermia using unwilling live subjects during WWII, later the rest of the world used this research to save lives.

    Ethical?

    Yes if you ask me. Wrong was certainly done but what's done is done, and to discard the good that could derive from it only harms still-alive and yet-to-be-born humans for no good reason.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2235
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,267 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Whisper it but there are all sorts of human cell lines being used in research, one of the most famous ones derives from a cell culture taken without consent from a woman who died in 1951.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeLa

    The Nazis did research into immersion hypothermia using unwilling live subjects during WWII, later the rest of the world used this research to save lives.

    Ethical?

    Yes if you ask me. Wrong was certainly done but what's done is done, and to discard the good that could derive from it only harms still-alive and yet-to-be-born humans for no good reason.

    the dachau experiments on hypothermia are of dubious scientific value at best. https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199005173222006

    As for the HeLa the biggest controversy was that the institution that initially cultured them made massive amounts of money from them and passed none of it on to the woman involved.


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    #2236
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    smacl wrote: »
    I see in the Irish Times today that according to the Catholic Church it is ‘Morally permissible’ for Catholics to accept Covid-19 vaccine which uses aborted foetal cells. Seems like the height of hypocrisy from where I'm sitting though not sure what else they could say.

    It's going to trigger the more conspiracy theory based religious believers.


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    #2237
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Imagine being of the mentality that you would take your public health guidance from a man who worships a fantasy figure.


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    #2238
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Imagine being of the mentality that you would take your public health guidance from a man who worships a fantasy figure.

    No different in a way than those who take it from Facebook etc and out and out grifters.


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    #2239
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,077 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Argentina's lower house of Government passes abortion legalization. Abortion will be legal until the 14th week.

    This is a big deal for them, a very conservative, predominantly Catholic country, almost there to legalizing abortion. Still needs to be passed by the Argentine Senate.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/argentina-abortion-lower-house-vote-b1769959.html


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    #2240
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    A similar law was blocked there in 2018.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2241
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,077 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    A similar law was blocked there in 2018.

    Well, fingers crossed it doesn't happen this time. The article I linked said the feeling was it would go through the Argentine Senate, too.


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    #2242
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It appears the current government was elected with a pro-choice mandate, so as you say, fingers crossed...

    Imagine how crazy the debate would have been here in 2018 though if we'd had an Irish pope!!!

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2243
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Man charged with termination of a pregnancy
    A man has appeared in court charged with the termination of a pregnancy.

    The man, who cannot be named for legal reasons, was before Letterkenny District Court in Co Donegal on Monday.

    Garda PJ Folan told the court that the accused man was arrested by arrangement at Letterkenny Courthouse.

    The man was charged under Section 23(2) of the Health (regulation of termination of pregnancy) Act 2018 on February 14th, 2020 in Letterkenny.

    The act says it is an offence for a person to prescribe, administer, supply or procure any drug, substance, instrument or apparatus or other thing knowing that it is intended to be used to end the life of a foetus, or being reckless as to whether to be so used or employed, otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.

    Garda Folan said the man, who was represented by solicitor Rory O’Brien, made no reply when the charges were put to him.

    The court heard the man had already appeared at Letterkenny District Court on a Section 3 assault charge on December 7th and that this was a related matter.

    Garda Sergeant Jim Collins said the Director of Public Prosecutions had sent the case forward to Letterkenny Circuit Court.

    Gardaí said they had no objection to bail but asked the court to apply a number of conditions.

    They include that he does not interfere with witnesses in the case or the alleged injured party, provide a mobile phone, surrender his passport and sign on twice a week at Blanchardstown Garda station.

    The court also ordered that if the accused is driving through Co Meath he does not stop in the county.

    Judge Paul Kelly adjourned the case until February 8th to Letterkenny Circuit Court for the service of a book of evidence in the case.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #2244
    Mules
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Mules


    I read the article in the independent about the report in to late term abortions in Ireland. It describes babies being born alive and left to die. I support abortion but that is seriously wrong. It's not all fatal fetal abnormalities. There are other situations too. One doctor described how he delivered a baby (he used the term baby rather than fetus), anyway, it was an abortion but the baby was born alive. The doctor thought to himself 'what would happen to it, would there be anyone to look after it' and then decided to let it die :(

    I found that horrific and very upsetting. I genuinely believed the government when they said that doctors would deliver viable pregnancies and put them up for adoption. Very naive of me in hindsight.

    To be honest it shocked me to the core that anyone thinks this is ok. It's an emotive topic so I know how debate gets heated but out of curiosity, is anyone on the thread ok with the example the doctor gave? If so what's your reasoning? I'm not interested in arguing, I'd just like to understand how other people think about these things.


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    #2245
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    This indo artice or another one ?



    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ive-been-called-a-murderer-hitler-woman-who-travelled-to-the-uk-for-abortion-calls-for-an-end-to-stigma-35502293.html
    The mother-of-one, desperate to have her impossible little girl, kept returning to the doctor, to see if there was any hope the baby could survive.

    “And every time he told me she would pass away,” the woman said.

    “By 18 weeks, we got the results which confirmed she had a complete extra set of chromosomes and that variant was fatal. There was no hope.


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    #2246
    Mules
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Mules


    gctest50 wrote: »
    This indo artice or another one ?



    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/ive-been-called-a-murderer-hitler-woman-who-travelled-to-the-uk-for-abortion-calls-for-an-end-to-stigma-35502293.html

    It was one that was out a few days ago. Maybe a week ago. It was reporting on a study in a British medical journal about late term abortions in Ireland since repeal. I'll try to find the link.


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    #2247
    Mules
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Mules


    Here's the link.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/opinion/comment/pro-life-side-were-called-scaremongerers-but-what-we-warned-of-is-now-happening-39782972.html


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    #2248
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    This study ? :

    Fetal medicine specialist experiences of providing a new service of termination of pregnancy for fatal fetal anomaly: a qualitative study

    https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0528.16502?af=R

    As plastered on the Aontuuuu website


    Which part of fatal do you have difficulty understanding ?
    .


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    #2249
    Mules
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Mules


    gctest50 wrote: »
    This study ? :

    Fetal medicine specialist experiences of providing a new service of termination of pregnancy for fatal fetal anomaly: a qualitative study

    https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/1471-0528.16502?af=R

    As plastered on the Aontuuuu website


    Which part of fatal do you not understand ?

    The problem the doctors are having is it's not fatal as in the fetus is born dead or near death.. It's that it can live for weeks or months so it's not black and white. When I thought of fatal during the referendum, I thought it meant 'will be born dead or will die immediately' The study quotes a description given as 'not fatal enough' I think that's a good description.


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    #2250
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Mules wrote: »
    Here's the link.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/opinion/comment/pro-life-side-were-called-scaremongerers-but-what-we-warned-of-is-now-happening-39782972.html

    That's a link to part of an opinion piece by some patron of the Iona Institute

    Any link to the actual study ?


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    #2251
    Mules
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Mules


    gctest50 wrote: »
    That's a link to part of an opinion piece by some patron of the Iona Institute

    Any link to the actual study ?

    Regardless of the views of the journalist, the study you posted details the facts. They are no different than what's in the indo article.


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