Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Well, they'll try again and again - yes.

But one does have to wonder about the degree of commitment to the cause. Republicans have been gaining votes from christians for 40 years with the "we'll reverse Roe vs Wade" line and they will lose their raison-d'etre if they ever actually achieve it.

A bit like when the Stuarts expected their landed estate landlords in Ireland to encourage the natives to stop being Catholic and impose fines on those who didn't convert... the landlords collected the fines and took a large administrative charge before even considering sending any of the dosh on to London.
London wondered why the natives were not converting.

Bredabe

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Shockingly high number of abortions 6,666 last year. Any stats on demographics/income etc.

Some women using the pill or buying condoms have had problems accessing the chemists/shops when they run out, due to cv restrictions.

Others have been given misinformation about map and missed the window of opportunity or were too restricted in their area to access it comfortably.

Then we have lack of affordability, abusive relationships, dependance on substances and stelting.

Igotadose

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Shockingly high number of abortions 6,666 last year. Any stats on demographics/income etc.

Interestingly shaped number you quote there. Where are you getting your statistics from? Nothing's been published by the Government afaict.

ohnonotgmail

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Shockingly high number of abortions 6,666 last year. Any stats on demographics/income etc.

how many irish based women had an abortion the year before?

Bannasidhe

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Shockingly high number of abortions 6,666 last year. Any stats on demographics/income etc.

MOD

In the interests of preventing back and forth and general bickering can you provide a source for that rather exact claim please?

eviltwin

“THERE WERE 6,666 terminations of pregnancy carried out last year under legislation enacted following the repeal of the Eighth Amendment.

The vast majority of these, 6,542 terminations, were carried out in the first 12-weeks, official figures show.

In a further 100 cases, an abortion was carried out due to a condition that was likely to lead to the death of the foetus, according to the Department of Health.”


Official figures alright.

Bannasidhe

eviltwin wrote: »

“THERE WERE 6,666 terminations of pregnancy carried out last year under legislation enacted following the repeal of the Eighth Amendment.

The vast majority of these, 6,542 terminations, were carried out in the first 12-weeks, official figures show.

In a further 100 cases, an abortion was carried out due to a condition that was likely to lead to the death of the foetus, according to the Department of Health.”


Official figures alright.

Linky?

eviltwin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Linky?

https://www.thejournal.ie/abortions-carried-out-in-2019-5136970-Jun2020/

ohnonotgmail

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Linky?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/total-of-6-666-abortions-carried-out-under-new-legislation-last-year-1.4292507

Bannasidhe

eviltwin wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/abortions-carried-out-in-2019-5136970-Jun2020/

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/total-of-6-666-abortions-carried-out-under-new-legislation-last-year-1.4292507

Cheers.

Carry on as ye were everyone.

drunkmonkey

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Cheers.

Carry on as ye were everyone.

It did seem a little on the high side you have to admit. Don't blame you looking for a source, there's too little data.

ohnonotgmail

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It did seem a little on the high side you have to admit. Don't blame you looking for a source, there's too little data.

is it higher than the number of irish based women who had an abortion in england the year before?

Bannasidhe

drunkmonkey wrote: »

It did seem a little on the high side you have to admit. Don't blame you looking for a source, there's too little data.

High or low is immaterial tbh.
It is simply better all round if people provide a link when they are presenting what appears to be factual information.
Saves bother.

For example were I to post

In 2019 there were 2,135 abortions performed in England and Wales to women recorded as residing outside those two countries, a decrease from 4,687 in 2018.

Then it is up to me to include https://www.thejournal.ie/how-many-women-travel-from-ireland-to-uk-for-abortions-5120161-Jun2020/

nozzferrahhtoo

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

is it higher than the number of irish based women who had an abortion in england the year before?

It seems to be yes, but I think that was/should have been expected. For a number of reasons. Most of which Seamus covered here. Though I also wonder how significant is this reason here.

But in summary the figure from the UK should be presumed to have always been a minimum figure, not a correct figure.

ohnonotgmail

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

It seems to be yes, but I think that was/should have been expected. For a number of reasons. Most of which Seamus covered here. Though I also wonder how significant is this reason here.

But in summary the figure from the UK should be presumed to have always been a minimum figure, not a correct figure.

digging further it doesnt such a big increase at all.

The latest statistics show the number of women has fallen from 3,265 in 2016 to 3,091 in 2017. This equates to a decrease in the rate of women travelling to the UK for an abortion from 3.5 per 1,000 women in 2016 to 3.1 per 1,000 in 2017.

One online provider reported that 1,217 women from Ireland “received the medical abortion pill” from their service in 2017. A second online provider reported that 878 women from the Republic “used the service” in 2017.

i make that a total of 5186. Not including those who travelled and used a relatives address in england.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/decrease-in-number-of-irish-women-having-uk-abortions-1.3522768

nozzferrahhtoo

Exactly. The "increase" looks big if you presume the "base" figure is accurate. But I am going to guess that almost no one, except those that see benefit in putting spin on it, will see the base figure as accurate, or pretend it to be while talking to others.

Further, I think it is also important which year someone cherry picks from. For example going back further in time.....

ohnonotgmail

doing a comparison with others our abortion rate per 1000 is quite low. by my calculations 6,666 abortions for a female population of child bearing age (15-44) of 2,015,100 (at the last census) gives a rate per 1000 of 3.3. that puts us quite a long way down the list

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/abortion-rates-by-country

Igotadose

Here is the report from the Department of Health, so you don't have to read reporters spin: https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/b410b-health-regulation-of-termination-of-pregnancy-act-2018-annual-report-on-notifications-2019/

Interesting 67 women stated they were from Northern Ireland, 525 gave no origin, and 15 'other.'

Odhinn

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

doing a comparison with others our abortion rate per 1000 is quite low. by my calculations 6,666 abortions for a female population of child bearing age (15-44) of 2,015,100 (at the last census) gives a rate per 1000 of 3.3. that puts us quite a long way down the list

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/abortion-rates-by-country

https://images.app.goo.gl/oQMJTFeW7iCscJ6t5

Hotblack Desiato

On the excellent Irish Election Literature website I came across this:

https://irishelectionliterature.com/2018/09/06/post-referendum-report-from-the-life-institute/

A report from the Life Institute on the anti-repeal campaign.
The word "delusional" doesn't really do it justice.

Apparentlly they ran by far the better campaign
Everybody was very impressed by their speakers in the media
Everything the Yes side said in the media, posters etc. was lies
The Yes campaign could only muster a few students to knock on doors
Their slogans and posters were vibrant and engaging, the Yes ones bland and dull
The Yes side had millions of illegal foreign cash
They lost because the media, Google and Facebook all conspired against them
They had to rely on internet advertising to get their message out because of media bias (Their massive advantage in terms of numbers of posters, billboards, flyers etc. €€€ is not mentioned for some reason)
All of the stories about women harmed by the 8th were lies
The Irish people were too feeble minded to consider the arguments
Even the Church has fallen down on the job, failing to instil rightthink in the populace
But they will rise again and win the day... sometime.

aloyisious

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

On the excellent Irish Election Literature website I came across this:

https://irishelectionliterature.com/2018/09/06/post-referendum-report-from-the-life-institute/

A report from the Life Institute on the anti-repeal campaign.
The word "delusional" doesn't really do it justice.

Apparentlly they ran by far the better campaign
Everybody was very impressed by their speakers in the media
Everything the Yes side said in the media, posters etc. was lies
The Yes campaign could only muster a few students to knock on doors
Their slogans and posters were vibrant and engaging, the Yes ones bland and dull
The Yes side had millions of illegal foreign cash
They lost because the media, Google and Facebook all conspired against them
They had to rely on internet advertising to get their message out because of media bias (Their massive advantage in terms of numbers of posters, billboards, flyers etc. €€€ is not mentioned for some reason)
All of the stories about women harmed by the 8th were lies
The Irish people were too feeble minded to consider the arguments
Even the Church has fallen down on the job, failing to instil rightthink in the populace
But they will rise again and win the day... sometime.

Given the presence of Life-ers from known christian values families on the "protest" against the new Youth and Children Dept Minister, Rodney O'Gorman, at the Dail Kildare St gates, claiming a new cause [paedophilia] on which to rally the troops, still retaining their ability to lie and try to deceive the public while posing as varied new political groupings, it's business as usual for them. The Ad stickers on lamp-posts, poles and bus shelters from the groups like New Ireland linking the minister [and by implication the Govt] with paedophilia shows the lifers new recruiting angle. The Taoisigh is whom they are after.

Loafing Oaf

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They had to rely on internet advertising to get their message out because of media bias

Interesting that they appear to be portraying this 'bias' as a relatively recent thing - my memory is that Niamh Nic Mhathuna set up Youth Defence specifically because of supposed bias in coverage of the X Case. Of course this enables them to evade deeper, harder questions about the evolution of Irish people's thinking on this and related issues.

Hotblack Desiato

Look we know newspapers and online news sites have an editorial line, that's always been the case. But they claim the broadcasters were biased against them too, even though they are strictly regulated and must enforce balance. I'm sure the BAI got loads of complaints (probably identically worded) but as far as I know didn't uphold any of them.

In my naivete I was wondering if they would take the opportunity for some introspection, but no everything is someone else's fault. It would have been honest to say that their message was too strident, turned a lot of Nos into Don't Know, turned a lot of Don't Knows into Yeses. Also worked wonders in turning Yes voters into Yes activists, and getting the Yes vote out.

At the end of the above report, it really puts the lie to the claim we often heard that the No campaign was not motivated by religious goals or values.

Loafing Oaf

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Look we know newspapers and online news sites have an editorial line, that's always been the case. But they claim the broadcasters were biased against them too, even though they are strictly regulated and must enforce balance. I'm sure the BAI got loads of complaints (probably identically worded) but as far as I know didn't uphold any of them.

In my naivete I was wondering if they would take the opportunity for some introspection, but no everything is someone else's fault. It would have been honest to say that their message was too strident, turned a lot of Nos into Don't Know, turned a lot of Don't Knows into Yeses. Also worked wonders in turning Yes voters into Yes activists, and getting the Yes vote out.

At the end it really puts the lie to the claim we often heard that the No campaign was not motivated by religious goals or values.

I think what they need to reflect on goes beyond their specific approach in the repeal referendum. They need to think about the broader historical process by which the Irish people have come to throw off the influence of the Catholic Church on other 'social issues' such as divorce and same-sex marriage over several decades, and how opposition to those developments effectively evaporated among the broader population once liberalisation had been achieved. They might also consider the situation in other western democracies, most of which have had 'liberal' abortion laws since the 1960s and 1970s, and where there is almost no public support for significant 'rollback' of those laws. Of course if they thought too long and hard about all of that they would likely just give up and go home...

Hotblack Desiato

Good points. But they think we're all idiots too stupid to think for ourselves and are led by the nose by the media (ignoring BAI rules, and even the Irish Times has a weekly Iona Instutute column...)

Which makes you wonder why the church had the upper hand for so long, was it because of the "obvious rightness" of their message, or maybe they were just very good at communicating it and silencing dissent

Cabaal

What I loved most about the repeal the 8th ref and marriage equality ref was the timing with the communiions and confirmations.

In each case a number of priests up and down the country used communion/confirmation day to tell people who wrong a yes vote was in either, in both cases people thought it was completely inappropriate for the church to use the childrens day to tell people what to do :pac:

Even my parents who are in their 70's/80's were disgusted with the priest for what he did during the confirmation mass.

It really showed just how out of touch the church is with the population.

lazygal

I didn't have much sympathy for parents who brought their children to mass to be indoctrinated and then complained that their children heard the Catholic position on reproductive rights.

CerebralCortex

Cabaal wrote: »

It really showed just how out of touch the church is with the population.

Or how protestant Irish people have become.

CerebralCortex

lazygal wrote: »

I didn't have much sympathy for parents who brought their children to mass to be indoctrinated and then complained that their children heard the Catholic position on reproductive rights.

Yes the have your cake and eat attitude is sickening.

Bannasidhe

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Or how protestant Irish people have become.

Yes, because there are apparently only those two options here in 1820.