Abortion Discussion, Part the Fourth

Hotblack Desiato

If that was the case then Vatican roulette would work!

And tbh anyone who trumpets their conservative religious belief on Twitter is not someone I can take seriously in relation to "morals", and sexuality in particular.

growleaves

"catholic" is a Greek word which means "universal". AFAIK all Christian churches claim catholicity.

It doesn't necessarily mean they have a direct relation to or overlap with the (capital-C) Catholic Church.

Hotblack Desiato

Free Presbyterians are part of a "catholic" church - I think not!

A lot of sects have the "we're the chosen ones, all of you other so-called christians are going to burn" thing which is hardly aspiring towards universalism.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Free Presbyterians are part of a "catholic" church - I think not!

Oddly, the First Council of Constantinople in 381 updated the Nicene Creed as declared by the First Council of Nicaea in 325 to include the following text:

Some Lad in Constantinople, 381 wrote:

Εἰς μίαν, ἁγίαν, καθολικὴν καὶ ἀποστολικὴν Ἐκκλησίαν ...

That word in bold reads 'katholikén' and means general or universal, in effect, 'open to everybody' since the prevailing religions at the time tended to be acquired by conquest in love or war.

So, if the free presbies go with the Nicene Creed, then yes, they're part of a "catholic" church for whatever that's worth.

Igotadose

robindch wrote: »

Oddly, the First Council of Constantinople in 381 updated the Nicene Creed as declared by the First Council of Nicaea in 325 to include the following text:That word in bold reads 'katholikén' and means general or universal, in effect, 'open to everybody' since the prevailing religions at the time tended to be acquired by conquest in love or war.

So, if the free presbies go with the Nicene Creed, then yes, they're part of a "catholic" church for whatever that's worth.

Interesting stuff, but why this thread?

aloyisious

Igotadose wrote: »

Interesting stuff, but why this thread?

An addendum to the abortion in N/I Debate, as one church opposing it there is of Christian belief but not Catholic, just catholic as in part of the worldwide christian world, with its adherents in situations of power in Govt there and following their christian beliefs declining to approve of legalizing abortion while still claiming to be part of the union with the U.K, which does allow for abortion in law.

Peregrinus

The Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster does consider itself to be part of the catholic church.

It is less certain, though, that the Catholic Church is part of the catholic church.

aloyisious

Peregrinus wrote: »

The Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster does consider itself to be part of the catholic church.

It is less certain, though, that the Catholic Church is part of the catholic church.

Yes, I won't disagree with you on that. The "the one true faith" aspect of dialogue between the religious.

Peregrinus

aloyisious wrote: »

Yes, I won't disagree with you on that. The "the one true faith" aspect of dialogue between the religious.

When it comes to the FPCU, the word you want is not "dialogue". More "monologue", I think.

aloyisious

Peregrinus wrote: »

When it comes to the FPCU, the word you want is not "dialogue". More "monologue", I think.

With reduced decibel level for the past 6 years, his anniversary was last Saturday.

robindch

Turns out that the unapproved antibody juice which #45 consumed last weekend to treat his mild dose of covid was produced by cell line derived from a foetus aborted in Holland in the 1970's. The 2020 Republican party opposes stem cell research, has successfully blocked some funding for it, and wants to block the lot.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/08/trump-covid-drug-developed-using-cells-derived-from-abortion

Igotadose

robindch wrote: »

Turns out that the unapproved antibody juice which #45 consumed last weekend to treat his mild dose of covid was produced by cell line derived from a foetus aborted in Holland in the 1970's. The 2020 Republican party opposes stem cell research, has successfully blocked some funding for it, and wants to block the lot.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/08/trump-covid-drug-developed-using-cells-derived-from-abortion

We're asking the Trumplodytes on the various Trump/election threads about this. None have raised an objection, in fact, none have commented at all. "With silence comes assention." So, all good, fetal stem cells for the win in any med research.

Igotadose

Igotadose wrote: »

We're asking the Trumplodytes on the various Trump/election threads about this. None have raised an objection, in fact, none have commented at all. "With silence comes assention." So, all good, fetal stem cells for the win in any med research.

Not surprising, most pro lifers and trump supporters on here don't have an issue saying that migrants should be left to drown at sea.

Also reminds me of the fact that the Reagans in the U.S. were quite against abortion, treated hiv suffers with stigma etc, but when Ronnie got alzheimers Nancy was quite vocal on the push for stem cell research.

magicbastarder

turns out the trumps own shares in regeneron.

robarmstrong

DubInMeath wrote: »

Not surprising, most pro lifers and trump supporters on here don't have an issue saying that migrants should be left to drown at sea.

Also reminds me of the fact that the Reagans in the U.S. were quite against abortion, treated hiv suffers being treated without stigma etc, but when Ronnie got alzheimers Nancy was quite vocal on the push for stem cell research.

This is the part that annoys me the most.

It goes against their own moral code or standings until it affects them personally, which annoys me because straight away I'm thinking "so you had to wait until you were personally affected by this matter/issue before you changed your mind, previously condemning those who were in your exact shoes beforehand?".

Madness.

Igotadose

DubInMeath wrote: »

Not surprising, most pro lifers and trump supporters on here don't have an issue saying that migrants should be left to drown at sea.

Yeah, they're not pro life, they're pro birth (or, as I think of them, pro 'forced birthing.') Once born, fahgeddaboutit, and if they need something from a dead fetus, no problem.

robarmstrong

robarmstrong wrote: »

This is the part that annoys me the most.

It goes against their own moral code or standings until it affects them personally, which annoys me because straight away I'm thinking "so you had to wait until you were personally affected by this matter/issue before you changed your mind, previously condemning those who were in your exact shoes beforehand?".

Madness.

Pretty normal in my experience.
Neighbor of mine was always giving out about unmarried mothers and gossiping about other people's kids when I was younger until their own daughters got knocked up. As my dad said at the time, it soon got them to shut the f*ck up about the subject.

Hotblack Desiato

Covid restrictions make it difficult for Irish women seeking abortions to travel

Figures from the British Department of Health and Social Care, provided to The Irish Times under freedom of information legislation, show 101 Irish women travelled for abortions between January and June this year, compared with 215 during these months last year.

Since enactment of the 2018 Abortion Regulation Act there have been reports of doctors reluctant to certify a foetal abnormality as fatal where there is any doubt, and others of women not finding out they are pregnant until almost 12 weeks or later, and falling outside the Act.

A spokeswoman said the British Pregnancy Advisory Service had seen a “significant decline in the numbers of women travelling from the Republic of Ireland. Women who have travelled have met significant difficulties, including flights being cancelled at short notice, sometimes when women were at the airport, leaving women stranded.

“Women have also been left without accommodation due to hotels closing without any warning. During the height of lockdown when all flights were suspended, women were forced to make the journey via ferry and trains.”

Abortion Support Network director Mara Clarke said Covid had “added to the pile” of obstacles the women they support must overcome. “One woman arrived by ferry to Liverpool to find that the hotel we booked for her had given all their rooms to homeless and key workers,” she said, while some women with “fatal foetal indications are finding that many of the hospitals that used to provide care to them are closed to international patients”.

Cabaal

So we see the catholic church once again has its filthy hands involved in right wing politics in Poland, doing what it can do restrict womens rights and heakthcare.

Business as usual for the catholic church really.

lazygal

They know they lost in Ireland so they're off bothering more malleable states.

Hotblack Desiato

European Parliament says Polish government influenced abortion ban ruling

The European Parliament accused Poland’s nationalist government on Thursday of improperly influencing a court that imposed a near-total ban on abortion, and said that showed that the rule of law had collapsed in Poland.

The head of the court hit back, accusing the European Parliament of “unprecedented” interference in Polish affairs - the latest in a series of clashes between institutions in Warsaw and Brussels.

Hundreds of thousands of Poles have taken to the streets since an October 22nd Constitutional Tribunal ruling that sharply limited Poland’s already restrictive abortion laws.

The protests have seen a broader outpouring of anger at Poland’s nationalist rulers, with many criticising government judiciary reforms they say have allowed the ruling Law and Justice (PiS) party to hand pick judges.

Since coming to power in 2015, PiS has clashed with the European Union over the judiciary reforms, which the bloc says violate democratic standards. PiS has rejected such accusations.

Poland and Hungary vetoed the EU budget and a Covid-19 recovery fund this month, after member states sought to tie the funds to adherence to the rule of law.

The motion from members of the European Parliament described the abortion ruling as “yet another example of the political takeover of the judiciary and the systemic collapse of the rule of law in Poland”.

“The aforementioned ruling was pronounced by judges elected by and totally dependent on politicians from the PiS (Law and Justice)-led coalition,” it added.

The resolution called for EU institutions to do more to support sexual and reproductive health rights across member states and to support grassroots and civil society groups that foster the rule of law.

It passed with 455 votes for, 145 against and 71 abstentions.

Julia Przylebska, the head of Poland’s Constitutional Tribunal, accused the European Parliament’s lawmakers of interfering in internal issues.

“MEPs are entering into the area of the independence of the Constitutional Tribunal ... which violates the separation of powers, and thus the foundations of democracy,” she added.

Poland’s government has not yet published the court ruling on abortion, meaning it is not yet enforceable. PiS says the government is waiting for the court to provide a more detailed justification.

Hotblack Desiato

Anti-abortion TDs set up all-party group with aim to amend legislation

Anti-abortion TDs have set up a new all-party group and will seek to amend the legislation on abortion when it comes up for review next year.

Independent TD Carol Nolan said the amendments were likely to require that pain relief be administered to foetuses in the case of late-term abortions carried out on the grounds of fatal foetal abnormalities.

The new group, the Oireachtas Life and Dignity Group, was launched at Leinster House and published a call for what it called “a humane response” to the question of foetal pain.

“It is routine practice for unborn babies undergoing surgical procedures to be given pain relief to ensure they feel no pain or distress during the procedure,” the group said in a document published on Wednesday morning.

“Babies being aborted at an identical gestational age, however, are denied the same dignity and respect as they are regarded as non-persons in the eyes of the law and by those carrying out the abortion procedure,” it said.

Ms Nolan said that recent research had found that foetuses felt pain after 12 weeks’ gestation and said that she wanted to see “humanitarian pain relief for babies” required. She said the group would be “initiating discussions on the issue and down the road certainly there would be amendments tabled”.

The abortion legislation is due to be reviewed next year, three years after its passage.

This doesn't seem unreasonable in itself but I can't help but think they'll use this as a means to obstruct or restrict abortions in general. (And just how many prenatal anaesthetists are there in the country anyway?)

At least the IT didn't use the p** l*** term

In terms of actual meaningful change, the 3 day wait is complete BS and needs to go. 12 weeks LMP is really only 10 weeks since ovulation, and for some is a tight enough timescale. Those who have a pill abortion fail within the current legal period need access to a legal surgical abortion.

lazygal

The anti choice campaign have brought over US anti choice campaingers to train and advise their younger cohort especially. They've advised them the best way to proceed is to chip away at access because they've no chance of overturning the whole system of abortion provision. So I expect there will be an exclusive focus on so called late term abortions, with a heavy emphasis on how these are carried out and the doctors who don't want to provide this health care.
Of course, these people oppose all abortion, be it at three days, three months or 33 weeks, so they're being entirely disingenuous when they use one particular set of abortions as their focus. But they know most people in Ireland voted for abortion access so they want to use what they consider the extreme end to work away at trying to make abortion progressively more difficult to access.
There should be no legal limit on abortion. It is health care and being prescriptive about it in law makes no sense. Might as well dictate when c sections should be allowed. I strongly suspect the govt parties will make noises about how the people voted on the proposed 2018 legislation so no changes of any real substance will be made and people who need healthcare after 12 weeks of pregnancy who can't access it here will still have to travel.

nozzferrahhtoo

"Ms Nolan said that recent research had found that foetuses felt pain after 12 weeks’ gestation and said that she wanted to see “humanitarian pain relief for babies” required."

Would love to see the research she is referring to.

I suspect it is the same wildly misquoted and misunderstood "research" that the anti choicers on boards.ie like Outlaw Pete cited on occasion during their failed campaign against the Referendum.

Spoiler: it simply showed that a Fetus responds to stimuli, including stimuli we as ACTUALLY feeling human beings would refer to as "painful". But that in no way says that the fetus "feels" pain or the costly administration of pain medication would achieve a damn thing.

Although it triggered Pete every time I mentioned it.... even a single celled amoeba will respond to a needle. That does not mean it "feels" anything.

Igotadose

FWIW, and it took a few years for me to get around to it, but we've sworn off the Irish Independent from our household. Too many I Own Her 'opinion' columns masquerading as data. David Quinn's bad enough, but last week was abject nonsense, from a woman who claims to be a Psychologist who is also listed as a board member or sponsor of that Institute, going on about 'feticide' whatever the f*ck the anti-choice chooses that to mean. No more copies of the Independent being purchased here.

lazygal

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

"Ms Nolan said that recent research had found that foetuses felt pain after 12 weeks’ gestation and said that she wanted to see “humanitarian pain relief for babies” required."

I once asked an anti choicer who wanted 'pain relief' to be required for a foetus what would happen if the pregnant person refused the administration of said pain relief via their vagina or injection into the uterus via abdomen. They couldn't answer me. These pain relief amendment attempts are nothing more than an attempt to make all abortion access more difficult.
The same person couldn't tell me if a foetus being squeezed through the birth canal felt pain as the plates of the skull shifted to allow delivery via the vagina and should all people be required to allow foetal pain relief to be administered as soon as labour started just in case.

Hotblack Desiato

Igotadose, problem is you'll find the Irish Times has a weekly Iona column too! :rolleyes: and feck knows why this is, probably a warped idea that this is necessary for "balance".

BAI, RTE and IT seem to think that "balance" means giving religious nutters unfettered access to mass media. It's not. Facts have a pro-liberal, pro-choice bias... that's unfortunate for the opponents of facts, but screw 'em.

In reality, balance means that ideas with rational substance are heard, ideas without rational substance are NOT heard except by those who choose to be misled.

end of the road

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Facts have a pro-liberal, pro-choice bias... that's unfortunate for the opponents of facts, but screw 'em.

in your opinion.
you forgot to mention that.

Bannasidhe

end of the road wrote: »

in your opinion.
you forgot to mention that.

Mod

Verging on backseat modding there.
Just thought I'd mention that.

eviltwin

I’d forgotten the legislation is coming up for review. Don’t know about anyone else but I’m not looking forward to more abortion debate. I wonder will they get much support.