The Leinster Championship is dead.

Cavan_King · 02-12-2020 07:45AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Obvious disruption of Kerry's and Donegal's prep, no crowds have changed the make up of games as well.

Plus that Aussie Rules man Colin O'Riordan for Tipp would have been back in Australia with the Sydney Swans - only for covid19

Also Mark Keane from Cork would have been back in Australia with Collingwood - only for covid19.

Dublin glad of a rest, and in an easy province so covid19 has been good for Dublin. I doubt Dublin would have made the SF this year without it. Team was very leggy pre covid19.

Disruption of Donegal & Kerry’s prep? Last time I checked, all counties had the same disruptions.

Cavan actually had worse than most because we got no week off due to being involved in the Ulster preliminary round. Therefore we played six weeks in a row. Kerry or Donegal didn’t do that.

You’re also putting a huge emphasis on just two AFL players.

Re the crowds, having crowds present would generally suit the smaller counties as more supporters would attend. Do you think you’d have more Cavan supporters there this weekend for their first AI semi final in 23 years or more Dubs for a game they expect to win by 15+ points!?

Tombo2001 · 02-12-2020 10:36AM

Cavan_King wrote: »

Disruption of Donegal & Kerry’s prep? Last time I checked, all counties had the same disruptions.

Cavan actually had worse than most because we got no week off due to being involved in the Ulster preliminary round. Therefore we played six weeks in a row. Kerry or Donegal didn’t do that.

You’re also putting a huge emphasis on just two AFL players.

Re the crowds, having crowds present would generally suit the smaller counties as more supporters would attend. Do you think you’d have more Cavan supporters there this weekend for their first AI semi final in 23 years or more Dubs for a game they expect to win by 15+ points!?

People love to point at 'that one thing' to explain why a team won a game or a championship.

The reality is that its months and months of training and years and years of work. Cavan are well worth their win, as are Tipp.

But back to the Leinster Championship .... what is Cavan's ambition right now? A realistic goal if you are trying to motivate these players, is to retain the Ulster Championship.

Dublin are 50 to 1 ON to beat Cavan; of course its just one game, give it their best shot, biggest game of their lives etc etc etc...... and then Dublin will win. (Welcome to Leinster Football!).

moghrasa · 02-12-2020 10:53AM

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Dublin glad of a rest, and in an easy province so covid19 has been good for Dublin. I doubt Dublin would have made the SF this year without it. Team was very leggy pre covid19.

You have just insulted the intelligence of everyone in this thread. What a ridiculous thing to say.

Dubs simultaneously want praised as the greatest side of all time while also disingenuously over stating the size of their obstacles. Look no further than Joanne Cantwell and Ciarán Whelan in the buildup to the Meath game pretending that the match had any hope of being competitive, only to gush about how amazeballs Dublin were once the inevitable whooping came.

Bernard Brogan at it on Twitter yesterday as well. There's no point in talking with ye if you're going to come out with things like saying Dublin wouldn't get to a semi final without Covid...

02-12-2020 11:36AM

moghrasa wrote: »

You have just insulted the intelligence of everyone in this thread. What a ridiculous thing to say.

Dubs simultaneously want praised as the greatest side of all time while also disingenuously over stating the size of their obstacles. Look no further than Joanne Cantwell and Ciarán Whelan in the buildup to the Meath game pretending that the match had any hope of being competitive, only to gush about how amazeballs Dublin were once the inevitable whooping came.

Bernard Brogan at it on Twitter yesterday as well. There's no point in talking with ye if you're going to come out with things like saying Dublin wouldn't get to a semi final without Covid...

To be fair this form of yerra-ism isn't natural to us Dubs. We'll get better at it.

ArielAtom · 02-12-2020 11:42AM

As a Dublin man I find it hard to keep our country cousins happy, If we say we are going to win well, we are cocky bstards and if we talk in muted tones about the opposition posing a threat we are disingenuous. So as a Dub there is no pleasing everyone. What I do find amusing though is the amount of bodies from other provinces that have developed a real interest in the condition of the Leinster championship. Great to see and hear their concerns. Although most have offered up no solution, merely used this thread to go on a rant about Dublins perceived advantages.

Tombo2001 · 02-12-2020 12:20PM

moghrasa wrote: »

You have just insulted the intelligence of everyone in this thread. What a ridiculous thing to say.

Dubs simultaneously want praised as the greatest side of all time while also disingenuously over stating the size of their obstacles. Look no further than Joanne Cantwell and Ciarán Whelan in the buildup to the Meath game pretending that the match had any hope of being competitive, only to gush about how amazeballs Dublin were once the inevitable whooping came.

Bernard Brogan at it on Twitter yesterday as well. There's no point in talking with ye if you're going to come out with things like saying Dublin wouldn't get to a semi final without Covid...

Big style.

Question is - will there be a single game they play this year where they are not out of sight by half time.

To be fair to Sunday Game - Dublin are a brilliant team. What annoys me though is the narrative that Meath have really gone downhill, as if its Meaths fault this is happening. No, its not.

Tombo2001 · 02-12-2020 12:22PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

As a Dublin man I find it hard to keep our country cousins happy, If we say we are going to win well, we are cocky bstards and if we talk in muted tones about the opposition posing a threat we are disingenuous. So as a Dub there is no pleasing everyone. What I do find amusing though is the amount of bodies from other provinces that have developed a real interest in the condition of the Leinster championship. Great to see and hear their concerns. Although most have offered up no solution, merely used this thread to go on a rant about Dublins perceived advantages.

Its tough being a Dublin supporter. I feel for ya:D

Solution offered a number of times : take Dublin out of Leinster, give the Dubs a bye to QF stage.

ShyMets · 02-12-2020 12:28PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its tough being a Dublin supporter. I feel for ya:D

Solution offered a number of times : take Dublin out of Leinster, give the Dubs a bye to QF stage.

Or we could accept that 3 of the 4 provincial championships are largely uncompetitive and move to a different format

moghrasa · 02-12-2020 12:34PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

As a Dublin man I find it hard to keep our country cousins happy, If we say we are going to win well, we are cocky bstards and if we talk in muted tones about the opposition posing a threat we are disingenuous. So as a Dub there is no pleasing everyone. What I do find amusing though is the amount of bodies from other provinces that have developed a real interest in the condition of the Leinster championship. Great to see and hear their concerns. Although most have offered up no solution, merely used this thread to go on a rant about Dublins perceived advantages.

Dubs will be called arrogant for predicting themselves to win well? Lol if you say so. In any case there's a difference between trying to not come across as arrogant versus saying that Dublin are fortunate for the pandemic otherwise they probably wouldn't have made an all-ireland semi final.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To be fair this form of yerra-ism isn't natural to us Dubs. We'll get better at it.

For sure. Pat Spillane will have to give ye a few seminars!

moghrasa · 02-12-2020 12:39PM

ShyMets wrote: »

Or we could accept that 3 of the 4 provincial championships are largely uncompetitive and move to a different format

I think this is the way. As much as I'd miss the Ulster championship (can't be many outside of Ulster that would say that), there's no sense in having games like Donegal Vs Antrim, Dublin Vs Wicklow or Kerry Vs Clare just because of geography. I think the best way to improve teams is have them playing teams of a similar stature more often, and progressing gradually, rather than getting smashed by teams that are several divisions above them. I'd be interested in seeing a tiered all Ireland which is seeded based on league position

Did you smash it · 02-12-2020 12:45PM

Dublin won their super 8 games last year with a points difference of +37 so finding competition at their level is impossible beyond 1 or 2 teams.

ArielAtom · 02-12-2020 01:01PM

moghrasa wrote: »

Dubs will be called arrogant for predicting themselves to win well? Lol if you say so. In any case there's a difference between trying to not come across as arrogant versus saying that Dublin are fortunate for the pandemic otherwise they probably wouldn't have made an all-ireland semi final.

For sure. Pat Spillane will have to give ye a few seminars!

Mine was a general observation based on the overall input into this discussion. It was not directed at anyone in particular.

Scoundrel · 02-12-2020 01:15PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

As you have asked, below are the last 10 years finals and the margins of victory

2010 Cork won.
2011 Dublin beat Kerry by 1 point
2012 Donegal win.
2013 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2104 Kerry win
2015 Dublin beat Kerry by 3 points
2016 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2017 Dublin beat Mayo by 1 point
2018 Dublin beat Tyrone by 6 points
2019 Dublin beat Kerry by 6 points.

6 points is the largest margin and that was against Tyrone and a replay v Kerry. The scoring stats do not suggest total dominance.

Leinster maybe, but not nationally. Therefore Leinster is the problem, poor teams that need major surgery.

Look at the margins in the semi finals and super 8's you get a better picture also as you've clearly shown the AI Finals are getting less competitive not more soon enough the 10 and 15 point hammerings in AI finals will start.

That unreal Mayo team have falsified the picture in recent years now that they have fallen back the true margins will be seen.

ArielAtom · 02-12-2020 01:34PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Its tough being a Dublin supporter. I feel for ya:D

Solution offered a number of times : take Dublin out of Leinster, give the Dubs a bye to QF stage.

It’s a solution, it may satisfy some. But others will say it’s special treatment for Dublin.

ArielAtom · 02-12-2020 01:40PM

Scoundrel wrote: »

Look at the margins in the semi finals and super 8's you get a better picture also as you've clearly shown the AI Finals are getting less competitive not more soon enough the 10 and 15 point hammerings in AI finals will start.

That unreal Mayo team have falsified the picture in recent years now that they have fallen back the true margins will be seen.

So you want to ignore stats and state that they have been falsified. I have used statistical data to prove that the AI series is competitive and that gap in Leinster is due to Dublins competition going backwards, but you use albeit correct a small uplift in the trend, ignoring the 1st day drawn game to try and make a point.

Uncle Pierre · 02-12-2020 01:47PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

It’s a solution, it may satisfy some. But others will say it’s special treatment for Dublin.

My gut reaction is to say I'd be one of them, because I don't think it would be fair on counties in other provinces, particularly Ulster, when you consider what they'd have to do to qualify for Super 8s, only to come up against a Dublin team that's been given a free pass.

Then again, it could be said that Dublin have a de facto free pass already anyway, so maybe it doesn't actually make a difference after all.

I've actually got a full and detailed proposal for restructuring of the championships, which I put in for consideration when the two-tier structure was first being proposed. But it still involves playing off the provincial championships, so it does nothing to address the imbalance in Leinster. It's one for a different discussion altogether.

Uncle Pierre · 02-12-2020 01:51PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

So you want to ignore stats and state that they have been falsified. I have used statistical data to prove that the AI series is competitive and that gap in Leinster is due to Dublins competition going backwards, but you use albeit correct a small uplift in the trend, ignoring the 1st day drawn game to try and make a point.

Couple of points of order.

Firstly, I see nowhere that he claimed stats were falsified. At worst, he pointed out that you just used selective stats, from finals only, to make your point.

Secondly, yes, you used stats from All-Ireland Finals only. Not from All-Ireland series. The All-Ireland series starts at the Super 8s stage, and could even be said to include the back-door qualifiers before Super 8s, since they're no longer part of a provincial series.

Scoundrel · 02-12-2020 02:01PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

So you want to ignore stats and state that they have been falsified. I have used statistical data to prove that the AI series is competitive and that gap in Leinster is due to Dublins competition going backwards, but you use albeit correct a small uplift in the trend, ignoring the 1st day drawn game to try and make a point.

The AI series is not competitive at all look at the super 8's and semi finals those are AI series the finals are somewhat competitive but less so now the statistical data is all there.

The gap in Leinster is most certainly not due to the fact that Kildare and Meath have fallen back it is to do with the fact that Dublin are a multi million euro set up playing against amateurs and to compound this already ludicrous disparity the GAA funds Dublin nearly twenty times more than Meath and Kildare and you blame Meath and Kildare for that?

Uncle Pierre · 02-12-2020 02:09PM

Scoundrel wrote: »

The gap in Leinster is most certainly not due to the fact that Kildare and Meath have fallen back it is to do with the fact that Dublin are a multi million euro set up playing against amateurs and to compound this already ludicrous disparity the GAA funds Dublin nearly twenty times more than Meath and Kildare and you actually have the ****ing cheek to blame Meath and Kildare for that?

And just to be fair to both sides.....:)

I actually think it's fair to say that the imbalance in Leinster is partly caused by the likes of Kildare and Meath not currently being at the standard they were at in previous years. I think their results against other counties from outside the province shows this.

But while they've gone backwards a bit, Dublin have moved hugely forwards, and it's the combination of the two that brings the imbalance.

I honestly don't think there's any solution, and definitely not a short-term one anyway. The Leinster Championship is doomed to stay as uncompetitive as it is, for a good few years to come.

Did you smash it · 02-12-2020 02:12PM

The purpose of any sports competition is to find the best team. If there is no purpose to that because it’s already known that one team is unbeatable then it is time to end or boycott the competition.

ShyMets · 02-12-2020 02:24PM

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

And just to be fair to both sides.....:)

I actually think it's fair to say that the imbalance in Leinster is partly caused by the likes of Kildare and Meath not currently being at the standard they were at in previous years. I think their results against other counties from outside the province shows this.

But while they've gone backwards a bit, Dublin have moved hugely forwards, and it's the combination of the two that brings the imbalance.

I honestly don't think there's any solution, and definitely not a short-term one anyway. The Leinster Championship is doomed to stay as uncompetitive as it is, for a good few years to come.

Meath and Kildare didn't help themselves with some of their managerial appointments.

However Meath under McEntee have improved. Kildare are a bit more of mystery. Leaving aside the Micko years their previous Leinster Championship success was 1956. This would suggest that Kildare's problems are deeper then just Dublin

Uncle Pierre · 02-12-2020 02:25PM

Did you smash it wrote: »

The purpose of any sports competition is to find the best team. If there is no purpose to that because it’s already known that one team is unbeatable then it is time to end or boycott the competition.

Sounds harsh, but it's actually what happened the Connacht Hurling Championship that somebody mentioned a while back. But contrary to what that poster said, it's not that the Connacht Council decided to end it. Instead, it's that Roscommon decided to stop entering it.

Uncle Pierre · 02-12-2020 02:36PM

Have done a little bit of looking at results from the All-Ireland series of recent years myself.

Between 2018 and 2019, Dublin's combined record was won 10, drew 1, lost 0, and with a points difference of +90.

Does anybody still want to claim it's competitive? Apart from how it's competitive in the hunt for second place, that is.

jmayo · 02-12-2020 02:51PM

moghrasa wrote: »

I'll be honest, those Mayo finals gave me hope. Since then however Mayo's panel has only gotten weaker since then (not to say it is weak. Mayo are a quality side relative to most of the teams in the country). Dublin humiliated Mayo last year without breaking a sweat. I don't see the point in bringing the 2016/2017 finals into this bracket seeing as ye have played Mayo more recently and it was a non contest.

Similarly, Tyrone were competitive for about 20 minutes and then were subdued. Kerry caught Dublin on the hop last year, but if we're being honest with ourselves they only managed to keep it close against 14 men, and got the result that many people expected the first time around once the replay came around. I don't mean to drag the thread off topic - I'm only bringing it up because I don't agree that the rest of the provinces can put out a provincial champion capable of defeating Dublin (barring an upset).

The GAA hierarchy don;t seemed to have grasped that without in particular Mayo for most of the last 10 years putting it up to Dublin in finals the All Ireland could have ended up like the Leinster Championship.
Dubs recognised this themselves by making sure Croke Park was full last year for the semi final against Mayo.
When was the last time a Dublin quarter or semi got a full house.
The Dubs themselves are losing interest FFS.

ArielAtom wrote: »

As a Dublin man I find it hard to keep our country cousins happy, If we say we are going to win well, we are cocky bstards and if we talk in muted tones about the opposition posing a threat we are disingenuous. So as a Dub there is no pleasing everyone. What I do find amusing though is the amount of bodies from other provinces that have developed a real interest in the condition of the Leinster championship. Great to see and hear their concerns. Although most have offered up no solution, merely used this thread to go on a rant about Dublins perceived advantages.

Yeah because what has started in Leinster is going to spread and that will be the demise of intercounty football.

Leinster used to be the second most competitive to Ulster, now it is a foregone conclusion.

Everyone in the coutnry used to watch Dublin Meath matches, now even people in those counties can't be bothered.

Can you not see that or is it onvce again you don't give a rats ass because you are winning?

Scoundrel wrote: »

...
That unreal Mayo team have falsified the picture in recent years now that they have fallen back the true margins will be seen.

Yeah some players have gotten older or gone, but some unreal talent has been unearthed.
Then again those talents are 10 a penny in Dublin.

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Sounds harsh, but it's actually what happened the Connacht Hurling Championship that somebody mentioned a while back. But contrary to what that poster said, it's not that the Connacht Council decided to end it. Instead, it's that Roscommon decided to stop entering it.

Also didn't help one year Roscommon sent one Galway player unconscious to hospital with what could only be described as GBH.

Uncle Pierre · 02-12-2020 03:10PM

jmayo wrote: »

Also didn't help one year Roscommon sent one Galway player unconscious to hospital with what could only be described as GBH.

I'd actually forgotten about that. Have never seen footage of it - it was back in the days before cameras were as widespread as they are now. But by all accounts, it was serious all right, and that's an understatement.

Hammer Archer · 02-12-2020 03:18PM

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

And just to be fair to both sides.....:)

I actually think it's fair to say that the imbalance in Leinster is partly caused by the likes of Kildare and Meath not currently being at the standard they were at in previous years. I think their results against other counties from outside the province shows this.

But while they've gone backwards a bit, Dublin have moved hugely forwards, and it's the combination of the two that brings the imbalance.

I honestly don't think there's any solution, and definitely not a short-term one anyway. The Leinster Championship is doomed to stay as uncompetitive as it is, for a good few years to come.

There's zero doubt that we are nowhere close to where we were during our glory days (that's obvious). But this year we had our first season back in division 1 since 2006.
In 2012, we were relegated to division 3 in the league. It was a particularly low point for Meath. However, we made it to the Leinster final against Dublin (who were reigning All-Ireland champions). We managed to battle back from conceding two first half injury time goals to only lose by 3 (and I remember we had a half chance of a goal to level the game in injury time). 2013, after coming from division 3, we lead at half time against Dublin only for them to produce the trademark second half performance to win by 7. I'd argue that we, as a team, have improved since then yet no team has gotten closer than that in the Leinster Championship since then.

I personally feel that the All-Ireland will gradually go the same way as Leinster, though not quite with the same hammerings. Dublin were barely out of first gear against Tyrone in 2018. They didn't get going for the first quarter yet still went in 7 ahead at half time. Then it was just a case of going through the motions and keeping Tyrone at arms length. Last year, Kerry played the entire second half with an extra man, yet still couldn't put Dublin away. Dublin were comfortable prior to the red card. The replay was similar to the 2018 final in that Dublin just coasted to a comfortable 6 point win and never looked like they were going to lose. All Dublin really need is 10-15 minutes of their best football at some point in a game and they'll beat any team.

I cannot see them being troubled by any of the teams that are remaining this year, though I hope I'm wrong.

ShyMets · 02-12-2020 03:30PM

I personally feel that the All-Ireland will gradually go the same way as Leinster, though not quite with the same hammerings. Dublin were barely out of first gear against Tyrone in 2018. They didn't get going for the first quarter yet still went in 7 ahead at half time. Then it was just a case of going through the motions and keeping Tyrone at arms length. Last year, Kerry played the entire second half with an extra man, yet still couldn't put Dublin away. Dublin were comfortable prior to the red card. The replay was similar to the 2018 final in that Dublin just coasted to a comfortable 6 point win and never looked like they were going to lose. All Dublin really need is 10-15 minutes of their best football at some point in a game and they'll beat any team.

I cannot see them being troubled by any of the teams that are remaining this year, though I hope I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]

I disagree slightly. In terms of the Tyrone final, Dublin were in trouble for the first 20/25 minutes. Tyrone hit some awful wides and probably should have been 8/9 points up. Had that been the case I think Dublin might have struggled to come back.

With regards to the first final with Kerry. Kerry were a point going into injury time and it was arguable a lack of composure that cost them.

The reply was nip and tuck until the last 5 minutes when Dublin began to stretch their lead and there was times they looked far from comfortable.

As great a team as Dublin in some finals they were vulnerable

ArielAtom · 02-12-2020 03:33PM

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Couple of points of order.

Firstly, I see nowhere that he claimed stats were falsified. At worst, he pointed out that you just used selective stats, from finals only, to make your point.

Secondly, yes, you used stats from All-Ireland Finals only. Not from All-Ireland series. The All-Ireland series starts at the Super 8s stage, and could even be said to include the back-door qualifiers before Super 8s, since they're no longer part of a provincial series.

My take on his statement below is that he used the word falsified to counter argue stats that I had shown, by default I took that as saying the stats are false.

Apologies if my understanding was wrong.

"That unreal Mayo team have falsified the picture in recent years now that they have fallen back the true margins will be seen"

Uncle Pierre · 02-12-2020 03:41PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

My take on his statement below is that he used the word falsified to counter argue stats that I had shown, by default I took that as saying the stats are false.

Apologies if my understanding was wrong.

"That unreal Mayo team have falsified the picture in recent years now that they have fallen back the true margins will be seen"

That's a bit of a stretch, but at least I can see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.

Was still the case though that you didn't use stats from the All-Ireland series yourself. You just looked at the finals.

But no need to now. I've already done it for you.

Tombo2001 · 02-12-2020 04:10PM

ArielAtom wrote: »

It’s a solution, it may satisfy some. But others will say it’s special treatment for Dublin.

I dont think so at this stage to be honest, people have had enough.

The Leinster Championship is dead.

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