Boundary Extension for City?

I’d say they will be glad in Kilkenny when this is all over so they can go back to completely ignoring the area!

zulutango wrote: »

So, the mask has been lifted. For KK, it's no longer about identity and culture, it's about rates.

LOL. And it's about something else from the "other" side? Comradely love and affection for the people living there?

road_high wrote:

LOL. And it's about something else from the "other" side? Comradely love and affection for the people living there?

Maybe it's about the proper sustainable planning and development of what is a single urban entity ..

BBM77 wrote: »

Do you think about what you write? You have made multiple posts on a form belonging to another city about an issue that does not directly affect you. If that is not obsessing and misery I don’t know what is.

True...he and couple others came on here pushing the gaa colours argument and a couple other things that didn't stand up scrutiny, then since that its never ending hatred and contempt even after the boundary process is over..

I think Varadkar is strong enough not to kow-tow to the parochial interests of those who support him. He's a sensible guy who doesn't really tolerate inefficiency or bull****. I don't see him standing in the way of an extension if that's what an expert group recommends, irrespective of John Paul Phelan's position.

blue note wrote: »

There's no political gain to it. The last thing that will happen is that a new leader will come in and do something to dent their popularity.

It doesn't matter that an independent report recommended it. The individuals who decide whether or not it will happen have nothing to gain and potentially will lose from it, so it won't happen.

It doesn't always come down to that. Politicians sometimes try to do what is right and sensible, and Varadkar has form in that regard. For example, when he was transport minister he gave Shannon Airport autonomy from the DAA even though there was a lot of opposition to it. He also postponed the M20 in the face of local pressure (which was the wrong decision but he was still brave enough to make an unpopular one). He's also in favour of repealing in the 8th amendment which is a position that is very much at odds with that of Fine Gael's core support.

blue note wrote: »

I hope you're right. I just don't see it as worthwhile for them. Politically it would be massively unpopular for them in Kilkenny. They'd lose a heap of votes over it. I can't see them doing it.

In that situation he'll allow Phelan to jump up and down about it and be seen to be fighting for Kilkenny's best interests. Kilkenny folks won't blame Phelan then when the inevitable happens.

blue note wrote: »

Plenty of them will blame Fine Gael because it happened under their watch. And they'll switch to Fianna Fail in protest.

Like we switched to Fianna Fáil when they abolished our city council, closed our VEC headquarters and moved it to Wexford, and when they carved up the south-east hospital group between Dublin and Cork. Oh, and also when they didn't deliver on 24h cardiac care... hmmm

Pardon the sarcasm but there is no way large numbers of voters would switch sides over this. Maybe an individual politician would kick up a fuss, but then resign the party whip? I seriously doubt it. If JPP resigned over this and hadn't resigned over the continuing failure to deliver 24h cardio, he would stand accused of being a pure parish-pump politician.

Think its dead myself, Leo and Simon won't do anything about it, attitude will be who gives a toss about that.we'll do it again on another twenty years probably, only hope would be if person in charge was willing to follow thru on sensible recommendations,coveney wouldn't/didn't and other lad the same in all likelihood.only positive was, most people unbiased to issue, thought it sensible.

BBM77 wrote: »

It is only the area within the bypass that is not already part of the city that would be coming back to Waterford city. And I say coming back on purpose. Can't see that it is hurling that is the barrier. Can't even remember ever seeing a KK flag flying in that area when they are in an All-Ireland final. The vast majority, if not all, of the opposition to the extension was from Kilkenny people outside the area in question.

Plenty of KK flags get flown there but leave Hurling out of it, local plebiscite should determine any switch. If it was just the built up areas of Ferrybank in Kilkenny(Rockshire road, Belmont, Abbey road etc.), it would be carried. If it was the rural areas only within the bypass( Newrath, Mullinabro, Cloone Rd., Milepost, Gyles Quay etc.) they'd vote no. The two combined would be carried for a switch to Waterford IMHO.

I think I may have found why this issue is so contentious and why Kilkenny folk get so confused about where the boundary used be in olden days etc. This is the old Junior Cert Civics textbook showing the counties, towns, cities of Ireland for local government purposes.
I mean if the Dept. of Education think Kilkenny goes to the coast, why would the good folk of Kilkenny accept loosing all that territory and more? :pac:

invara wrote: »

The strategic significance of getting the boundary extension cannot be under-estimated. In the next census, both Limerick and Cork's populations will be jacked up as they got their boundary extension over the line. Galway took in Salthill in 1986 to leapfrog us, both cities are around the same size, but Galway reports 79k people, Waterford 53k. Dubs, looking at us through a spreadsheet will think Waterford is tiny and will forget that the boundary extension artificially suppresses the urban population; and as a result, we will be denied services (such as cardiac care or a university). It is not too extreme to say, that the bizarre decision by Simon Coveney to overturn the recommended boundary extension puts some of our lives at risk.

But would a population increase of c. 4.5K really make a big difference to these calculations?

Squidvicious wrote: »

But would a population increase of c. 4.5K really make a big difference to these calculations?

Yes. In 1986 Waterford was bigger than Galway (~37k V 36k from memory). Gerrymandering accounts for the initial separation of Galway's growth from Waterford, additional urban services in healthcare, university and cultural investment did the rest. Galway is now at 78k and Waterford at 52k, 50k is the threshold that defines a city for European statistical purposes.

Why are the other cities working so hard to artificially jack up their populations and hold ours down- money follows this data. Read the Herity report on 24/7 cardiac care to understand how an outsider analyses service needs based on spreadsheets.

The Waterford MASP aspiration looks pretty miserable. Almost afraid to set out the stall lest they offend someone in Wexford or Kilkenny.

IsosKramer wrote: »

That post is substantially incorrect.
The CSO figures (2016 in this case) reflect the ACTUAL population.

The populations, and what is included, is stated clearly in the CSO publication:
Limerick City 94,192 (INCLUDING suburbs in Co. Clare)
Galway City 79,934
Waterford City 53,504 (INCLUDING suburbs in Co Kilkenny)
Therefore, every person in every suburb of every city is accounted for in the CSO data. Hence, it is immaterial to the CSO,and reality, as to how the actual, total population is subdivided within an urban area.

Another interesting (but sobering reality check) piece of data in the 2016 census is:

Table 4.1
"Daytime Working Population "

Limerick City. 44,624
Galway City. 44,376
Waterford City. 24,375

It is clear, though possibly depressing, that it is nonsense to say that that Galway and Waterford "are around the same size". Nobody outside Waterford, or possibly these threads, would believe it because it's incorrect. Wishful thinking achieves nothing and constant repetition of this misstatement will never bring it closer to reality.
Galway City's population is, per the CSO and immaterial of boundaries approximately 50% bigger than Waterford City's. That figure could be even more stark.In fact, because of the high prices of houses and lack of available sites for housing, the vast majority of Galway's first-time buyers could never live in the city and have to look elsewhere. Not an issue in Waterford.
The working population, I think, gives a very telling indication of the true relative difference in scale between Galway and Waterford. Galway City's(and Limerick's) daytime population is over 80% larger than that of Waterford City.
In fairness, it isn't the first time, nor, regardless of facts, will it be the last, that the "similar in size" mantra will be trotted out....but, frankly, it's ludicrous to everybody outside Waterford at least.
Rather than looking up at bigger cities, Waterford needs to look at Drogheda as it might not be the fifth largest population centre in the not-too-distant future.

Daytime working population is an interesting single data point, less impressed with the suggestion that I talk nonsense.

The live register is another interesting data point. In April 2016 Galway had 7,825 signing on, Waterford City 8,555 , but I do not see anyone arguing that Waterford is bigger than Galway based on that.

Daytime working pop. in Q2 2016 is only part of the picture. Unemployment was running at ~10% in both the West and SE in Q2 2016. Galway has significantly lower unemployment than its region, Waterford has slightly more than its hinterland. I sustain my view that both cities are functionally around the same size once gerrymandering is stripped out.

We know how the labour markets are composed- so, for example, the West has around double the per capita IDA jobs of the SE- and these jobs tend to be focused on urban centres. In 2018 Galway had 19,969 IDA supported jobs, Waterford 7,064 (Galway county is around the double the pop. of Waterford, so it might be more of a comparison to add in Kilkenny's population and its 711 IDA supported jobs). In 2016 the IDA reopened its regional office in Waterford, having close it in 1992- we know IDA in the SE region (~420k) is around half the national average. IBEC's Gerard Brady recently presented a study in the ERSI journal suggesting that for every IDA supported job there is 3 additional jobs created in the county. That in itself would account for the daytime working population gap.

The IDA found the SE hard to market without a university, and put their efforts elsewhere. Their big push for the SE, now 5 years old has turned up very little.

You might also add in the 2.5k jobs in NUIG and you can see why the jobs rate runs very shallow. Interestingly enough NUIG has 18,000 students, many of whom (once out of first-year) participate in the census. Of course, on foot of COVID census21 is delayed- it would reshape the urban populations of cities highly dependent on students.

Thanks for your suggestion that Waterford and the entire SE accept the underprovision of services that are normal in other regions of Ireland. Drogheda is 37 minutes from Dublin if the good people of Louth wish to access five universities or indeed cardiac care; or any other urban service it is available on their doorstep.

It is a simple fact that a large region of Ireland, around 10% is being left to rot- it was an intolerable situation when the West was in that situation in the 1980s and significant Government action (the Western Development Commission), strategic focus by the IDA and NUIG investment shouted stop and ensured the west woke up.