General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

Unearthly · 29-11-2020 12:01PM

super_furry wrote: »

Part or it too I think is all the staggered kick-offs. You'd miss the grouped Saturday 3pm games, it was nearly the focus of a weekend, now everything is all over the place.

Not for me. Maybe back in the 90's when you had at most 1 or 2 games moved for tv the Saturday 3pm games was seen as an event but it lost that feeling ages ago now.

RasTa · 29-11-2020 12:08PM

Since when did we starting talking/gloating about teams on top of the league in November?

Guy:Incognito · 29-11-2020 12:09PM

davemckenna25 wrote: »

He didn't dive...he was kicked and went to ground.

Choosing to fall on the ground in a dive.

Whether you're fouled or not doesn't change that. A player pushing their head against another player and that play dropping on the ground and rolling around is a dive. The fact you're not allowed touch you're head off another player and it's a sending off offence doesn't make it less of a dive imo.

Potential Underachiever · 29-11-2020 12:10PM

noodler wrote: »

That's also true.

But the ref looked at it himself I'm personally satisfied on that score.

If it had been overturned purely on VAR say so then I would be querying why VAR suddenly grew a pair this week.

That's all for show though isn't it? I think I've seen one incident (can't remember what) where the ref went to the monitor and then stuck to his decision. He's clearly being told to change the decision but go over and have a look so it makes it look a bit more like we're not reffing the match. He had zero intention of actually judging the incident himself, not to mention the slo-mo one angle they show refs are ridiculous too, Should be multiple angles in real time as well as slowed down if they like.

Prime example was the West Brom penalty recently against United, there was no chance that should have been over turned, I fail to see what the ref could have possibly seen in the replay to say, hold on I actually got that wrong.

DM_7 · 29-11-2020 12:11PM

fyfe79 wrote: »

Very true. I work in calibration and there is something known as "uncertainty of measurement" which factors in the uncertainty of the measuring equipment being used. Generally speaking, if the uncertainty of measurement is big enough to bring the result of a reading in to doubt (ie if the error of reading + the uncertainty of measurement = greater than the tolerance), we would still consider the reading to be acceptable with an accompanying note that compliance cannot be proven or disproven. This is in a very heavily regulated pharma company.

With these tight offside calls, the PL are basically saying that the reading (goal) is not acceptable as compliance (onside) cannot be proven/disproven.
It's quite a negative way to approach what is a game of football!

If they approached it like the regulations governing pharma companies, the result in these tight calls would be a more positive outcome, ie. goal awarded.

These checks have two possible outcomes, offside or onside. Both teams have the right for the determination to be made in their favour. Any check has the potential to show the attacker or defender as closest to goal.

They are not going to change the rules to say a player is onside once within the margin for error and then check offsides are outside the margin. For example, player A goal awarded as 9mm offside, player B offside as 11mm offside.

Therefore the existance of a margin of error must be accepted at the outset and that the lines decide the decision.

Potential Underachiever · 29-11-2020 12:12PM

I couldn't be bothered to actually check it as fact but I'd be fairly certain there is serious hypocrisy going on from posters here regards Welbeck going down and Salah going down a couple of weeks ago.

RasTa · 29-11-2020 12:12PM

You could see both where offside yesterday without the lines. There was one for us in the CL I think with Greenwood that I was surprised wasn't overturned.

This one

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Girly Gal · 29-11-2020 12:16PM

DM_7 wrote: »

The software and calibration of same has determined the foot is closest to the goal. It is far more accurate than how things 'look' to us. A question was asked yesterday and in my view the pictures and video explain the process that was/is followed.

I agree on the issue of determining when the ball is played. I don't think the extreme analysis of on/offside is in spirit of what the rule was meant to be. The attackers are not getting a clear advantage or defenders suffering a major disadvantage in these really close scenarios.

The suggestion of a freeze frame scenario without the calibrated lines would be great if a camera angle showing the true line was available. It is not though, so it would not be suitable either due to the limitations of seeing a true line on camera angle's without a set and calibrated process of determining the offside line.

As you say, VAR can't determine conclusively when the ball is played, so, in tight calls like this the attacking team should get the advantage, as was the case previously if the attacker was deemed level. VAR is going against the spirit of the game, there needs to be some leeway in how offside is implemented with VAR. The most ridiculous decision was the Bamford one where he was pointing where he wanted the ball played, it's decisions like that, that make the public lose faith in VAR. It's the implementation of VAR that's the issue, if common sense was used, VAR would be fine.

Father Hernandez · 29-11-2020 12:19PM

Father Hernandez wrote: »

In fairness, it's used whenever a United or Liverpool player wins a penalty to wind up the other fan base.

Was it a foul? Yes
Did Salah use a bit of theatrics to make sure the ref would see it as a foul? Yes
Was it a penalty? Yes

I said this previously about the Salah incident when Liverpool won a penalty v West Ham.

Fairly relevant after Welbeck yesterday.

Was it a foul? Yes
Did Salah Welbeck use a bit of theatrics to make sure the ref would see it as a foul? Yes
Was it a penalty? Yes

I don't necessarily agree with either decision that a player has to 'win' it but in this day and age and the way the rules are, it's a penalty. A harsh penalty but a penalty.

noodler · 29-11-2020 12:31PM

davemckenna25 wrote: »

1st, my reply wasn't to you so I wasn't debating whether you called it a penalty or not. You have agreed it was a foul.

2nd, maybe he could have limped on but he decided not to. He decided to drop to the ground.
He didn't make it theatrical and didn't throw himself to the ground, he just went down.
He had been kicked as we agreed, on so I don't see how it gets labeled as a dive.

Ah now he definitely dived.

Peno and all but he was clearly still on his feet after the contact but decided to go to ground.

DM_7 · 29-11-2020 12:31PM

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

That's all for show though isn't it? I think I've seen one incident (can't remember what) where the ref went to the monitor and then stuck to his decision. He's clearly being told to change the decision but go over and have a look so it makes it look a bit more like we're not reffing the match. He had zero intention of actually judging the incident himself, not to mention the slo-mo one angle they show refs are ridiculous too, Should be multiple angles in real time as well as slowed down if they like.

Prime example was the West Brom penalty recently against United, there was no chance that should have been over turned, I fail to see what the ref could have possibly seen in the replay to say, hold on I actually got that wrong.

The ref should see why the VAR is making a recommendation a certain decision be made.

It is highly likely in all cases where replays are available that the ref will agree with the suggestion from VAR as VAR has had the benefit if replays.

Accoring to VAR: Bruno kicked the ball; Roberston did not kick the ball. Ref in each case agreed. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that process.

noodler · 29-11-2020 12:34PM

Potential Underachiever wrote: »

That's all for show though isn't it? I think I've seen one incident (can't remember what) where the ref went to the monitor and then stuck to his decision. He's clearly being told to change the decision but go over and have a look so it makes it look a bit more like we're not reffing the match. He had zero intention of actually judging the incident himself, not to mention the slo-mo one angle they show refs are ridiculous too, Should be multiple angles in real time as well as slowed down if they like.

Prime example was the West Brom penalty recently against United, there was no chance that should have been over turned, I fail to see what the ref could have possibly seen in the replay to say, hold on I actually got that wrong.

I think that's in your head.

Nowhere near enough examples of the monitor being used in the PL to make that conclusion imo.

He saw the contact in the replay, I imagine.

Rock77 · 29-11-2020 12:38PM

Father Hernandez wrote: »

I said this previously about the Salah incident when Liverpool won a penalty v West Ham.

Fairly relevant after Welbeck yesterday.

Was it a foul? Yes
Did Salah Welbeck use a bit of theatrics to make sure the ref would see it as a foul? Yes
Was it a penalty? Yes

I don't necessarily agree with either decision that a player has to 'win' it but in this day and age and the way the rules are, it's a penalty. A harsh penalty but a penalty.

Well said and 100% correct. The problem is Var, if you are going to use var for fouls in the box then you can’t say things like ‘he made contact, but I don’t think it was enough contact to go down’ sometimes the slightest contact get make u go down if your running at speed and sometimes a fairly good kick (like Robbo yesterday) probably isn’t enough to make u go down.

If your using slow motion replays for fouls then if the defender misses the ball and connects with the attacker it’s a pen.

In my opinion the game would be so much better if they drew the line at goal line tech (see what I did there)

Everything else is subjective and it’s still subjective after 10 slow motion replays.

I know the really big injustices are no more because of var but how often do they actually happen anyway? This micro managing of little fouls and offsides takes all the enjoyment out of the game.

I for one was always Allright having a marginal decision given against my team.. not so much anymore because I expect the correct decision every time now and I defo don’t trust the var offside lines! The Bruno pen given away against West Brom, seeing that in real time and even the replays looks a pen to me. If that was the other way around I’d be fuming...

fyfe79 · 29-11-2020 12:39PM

RasTa wrote: »

Since when did we starting talking/gloating about teams on top of the league in November?

I'd imagine around the same time as others accusing Klopp of "losing it" for showing consideration for player welfare.

It's tit for tat nonsense, is all.

fyfe79 · 29-11-2020 12:42PM

Father Hernandez wrote: »

I said this previously about the Salah incident when Liverpool won a penalty v West Ham.

Fairly relevant after Welbeck yesterday.

Was it a foul? Yes
Did Salah Welbeck use a bit of theatrics to make sure the ref would see it as a foul? Yes
Was it a penalty? Yes

I don't necessarily agree with either decision that a player has to 'win' it but in this day and age and the way the rules are, it's a penalty. A harsh penalty but a penalty.

A good summation.

marklazarcovic · 29-11-2020 12:56PM

Here's ole saying the same thing as klopp a few weeks back .. no hate though..

https://twitter.com/btsportfootball/status/1325087291048685568?s=19

yourdeadwright · 29-11-2020 01:00PM

Yeaterday to me fallsnin the same category as the penalty Salah looled for against Villa away, Where McGinn looled to have fouled him but to the ref and me it wasnt enough for a peno

Potential Underachiever · 29-11-2020 01:01PM

DM_7 wrote: »

The ref should see why the VAR is making a recommendation a certain decision be made.

It is highly likely in all cases where replays are available that the ref will agree with the suggestion from VAR as VAR has had the benefit if replays.

Accoring to VAR: Bruno kicked the ball; Roberston did not kick the ball. Ref in each case agreed. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with that process.

Not sure why the ref can't just view it again without any recommendations tbh. VAR tells him to look at it again and change his mind or VAR tells him it's fine don't look at it again you're correct, that's tantamount to VAR reffing these decisions.

VAR far from being always right either. I watched the super slo mo of the Fernandes non pen alot and from what I saw , it was shin to shin then Fernandes may have grazed the ball with his studs but contact was definitely first, that was after viewing it ALOT, ref runs over has a quick glance at it and changes his mind because he was obviously told to do so. There was nothing conclusive in the replay he saw and no way he could have saw anything in that quick of a time that was a clear and obvious error but sure enough he changed his mind, that is a flawed process imo, he gave the penalty, had a good view in real time, then changed his mind on a whim.

Lucas Hood · 29-11-2020 01:31PM

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Here's ole saying the same thing as klopp a few weeks back .. no hate though..

https://twitter.com/btsportfootball/status/1325087291048685568?s=19

I haven't seen the hate for Klopp but the situations for Utd and Liverpool were different.

Liverpool played at home on Wednesday evening

United played in Turkey the Wednesday evening before Oles interview

Girly Gal · 29-11-2020 01:42PM

Football is a contact sport, just because there's contact inside the box, doesn't automatically make it a penalty, that seems to have been lost in football now, any contact and a penalty is given, the context of the contact needs to be looked at, it's the same with handball, yet if the same type of incident happens outside the box, it wouldn't even be given a second thought.

29-11-2020 01:54PM

https://twitter.com/talkSPORT/status/1331247432135544839?s=09

Interesting discussion on talksport

The treatment by Klopp towards BT was weird as a side note. They have a job to do like everyone else.

That happens to be asking the questions, that includes the difficult ones.

Klopps approach all wrong.

Rock77 · 29-11-2020 01:58PM

Girly Gal wrote: »

Football is a contact sport, just because there's contact inside the box, doesn't automatically make it a penalty, that seems to have been lost in football now, any contact and a penalty is given, the context of the contact needs to be looked at, it's the same with handball, yet if the same type of incident happens outside the box, it wouldn't even be given a second thought.

And this is why VAR shouldn’t be used for fouls.. when you want to look at context of contact your in big trouble with slow motion replays

marklazarcovic · 29-11-2020 02:01PM

Lucas Hood wrote: »

I haven't seen the hate for Klopp but the situations for Utd and Liverpool were different.

Liverpool played at home on Wednesday evening

United played in Turkey the Wednesday evening before Oles interview

They are saying the same thing though ,about the same thing.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 29-11-2020 02:24PM

Waiting to see how Man U get a pen from Bednareks goal..

29-11-2020 02:26PM

marklazarcovic wrote: »

Here's ole saying the same thing as klopp a few weeks back .. no hate though..

https://twitter.com/btsportfootball/status/1325087291048685568?s=19

Let's call a spade a spade. Ole and Utd aren't a threat in the league. Any manager/club in that position won't really make headlines.

Back in the day when it was Fergie or Wenger complaining I probably would have laughed at their complaints myself.

fyfe79 · 29-11-2020 02:30PM

Lucas Hood wrote: »

I haven't seen the hate for Klopp but the situations for Utd and Liverpool were different.

Liverpool played at home on Wednesday evening

United played in Turkey the Wednesday evening before Oles interview

Ole had it worse but Klopp's point has always been that the sides playing in Europe on Wednesday evening shouldn't be playing at 12:30 on Saturday. Last season was acceptable because it was a rare event, but it's happening more frequently now because of the shorter season resulting in more CL/PL/CL/PL weeks without breaks.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 29-11-2020 02:31PM

Absolutely astounding pair of saves there, United dangerous and does not help if you give it to them in that situation.

DVDM93 · 29-11-2020 02:31PM

Southampton Football Club 1-0 Manchester United Football Club.

Goal scored by Jan Kacper Bednarek.

For anyone interested he was born on the 12th of April 1996 which makes him 24.

He plays as a centre back.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 29-11-2020 02:34PM

JWP does it again, keeper should do better.

Quazzie · 29-11-2020 02:35PM

Will Ole be out whinging like Klopp was considering he also got the early start which is basically the same time frame since their Europa league game as Liverpool had yesterday?

General Premier League Thread 2020-21 - Mod Notes in 1st post. [Updated 17/12/20]

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