Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

opinionated3 · 25-11-2020 02:20PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Can I ask you, and others also of the opinion that there is a lack of logic to the restrictions being applied, that on balance, it is more likely that rather than their being no logic, it is just that you cannot see the logic?

And that is is more likely that you are in error, than are forty varied members of NPHET, experts in public health, medicine, epidemiology with extensive experience and strong academic background and credentials ?

Unless you personally have an understanding and experience to both explain the flaws in their thinking, and explain why your conflicting analysis is the correct one, you would have to concede that you are probably the one with the incorrect view ?

Less than one third of one percent of cases are attributable to the pubs. And they employ over 50000 people. But we keep them closed. Logic??!!

MelbourneMan · 25-11-2020 02:27PM

opinionated3 wrote: »

Less than one third of one percent of cases are attributable to the pubs. And they employ over 50000 people. But we keep them closed. Logic??!!

Yes, thats exactly the type of thinking those people espouse.

But they seem to lack the critical analysis to see the flaw in such a simplistic statement, or to consider that if matters were indeed according to that 'logic', that it is really plausible that such a conclusion be beyond the comprehension of the members of NPHET.

opinionated3 · 25-11-2020 02:32PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Yes, thats exactly the type of thinking those people espouse.

But they seem to lack the critical analysis to see the flaw in such a simplistic statement, or to consider that if matters were indeed according to that 'logic', that it is really plausible that such a conclusion be beyond the comprehension of the members of NPHET.

Nphet don't care about their employment or their mental health. That much is obvious or else they would be doing their best to give these people a chance to show they can operate just as safely as barbers, gyms etc...I think it's obvious at this stage that there is an anti alcohol narrative being pursued by these " experts".

Hellrazer · 25-11-2020 02:33PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

And that is is more likely that you are in error, than are forty varied members of NPHET, experts in public health, medicine, epidemiology with extensive experience and strong academic background and credentials ?

This is the problem. NPHET while Id probably disagree with the "experts" status youve given them are exactly what you describe ie so called "experts" in public health.

NPHET should have had a few economists / business persons on the team in order to to balance out the danger to our economy and country as well as our health.
An economist could have given an alternative view to lockdowns and restrictions or maybe come up with an alternative altogether to what we are getting from NPHET.

Our economy has to survive this as well as our people.

Unless you personally have an understanding and experience to both explain the flaws in their thinking, and explain why your conflicting analysis is the correct one, you would have to concede that you are probably the one with the incorrect view ?

The flaws in their thinking is that its a single tunnelled vision view of the whole pandemic.

This virus doesnt kill as many as NPHET make out it does. We could have had parts of the economy open for business as usual while protecting the vulnerable.

Richard Hillman · 25-11-2020 03:13PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Can I ask you, and others also of the opinion that there is a lack of logic to the restrictions being applied, that on balance, it is more likely that rather than there being no logic, it is just that you cannot see the logic?

And that is is more likely that you are in error, than are forty varied members of NPHET, experts in public health, medicine, epidemiology with extensive experience and strong academic background and credentials ?

Unless you personally have an understanding and experience to both explain the flaws in their thinking, and explain why your conflicting analysis is the correct one, you would have to concede that you are probably the one with the incorrect view ?

The lack of logic is just say 2 groups of 4 people sit at a table in a pub for 2 hours.

One group sits there and they have 4 pints each over 2 hours. There are 4 services of the 4 rounds.

Group 2 has 4 pints and a small meal over the 2 hours. There are 5 services of the 4 rounds and group of meals.

Who is more likely to contract the Virus, Group 1 or Group 2?

Remember you have a 2/3 people added to the kitchen service and you have increased the contact between staff and customer. You have also entered a new dynamic of cutlery and condiments.

weldoninhio · 25-11-2020 03:15PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Can I ask you, and others also of the opinion that there is a lack of logic to the restrictions being applied, that on balance, it is more likely that rather than there being no logic, it is just that you cannot see the logic?

And that is is more likely that you are in error, than are forty varied members of NPHET, experts in public health, medicine, epidemiology with extensive experience and strong academic background and credentials ?

Unless you personally have an understanding and experience to both explain the flaws in their thinking, and explain why your conflicting analysis is the correct one, you would have to concede that you are probably the one with the incorrect view ?

Can I ask you and others of your opinion. Regarding Ireland’s Public Health Service, which the members of NPHET run and have ran for years. Do you think this is an excellent service? Well run? Scandal free?

If not, why the fcuk would you trust them to be cogent to fight Covid, when not one of them is a virologist or epidemiologist??

the rock29 · 25-11-2020 04:29PM

Licensed Vintners Association

Government proposals proof they do not trust publicans, pub staff or pub customers
The measures being put forward by Government are proof they do not trust publicans, pub staff or pub customers, according to the Licensed Vintners Association (LVA). Following suggestions the Government is to block the reopening of ‘wet’ pubs next month while also making it more difficult for pubs who serve food to reopen, the LVA say such measures have nothing to do with public safety and amount to a political decision being taken by the Government.

“Where is the evidence that ‘wet’ pubs pose a greater risk than restaurants or food pubs?” said Donall O’Keeffe, Chief Executive of the LVA. “Where is the evidence that people are more likely to catch Covid-19 if they don’t have a €9 meal? Where is the evidence that people are less likely to be infected if the meal they have was prepared in a dedicated kitchen rather than coming from a nearby pizzeria? There is no data to support these measures, this is a political decision with the Government showing they are happy to destroy the pubs of this country.

“The Government’s own guidelines have the same social distancing measures and time limits in place for ‘wet’ pubs, food pubs and restaurants. Yet they are pursuing policies which will only keep the ‘wet’ pubs closed and ensure that more venues are classified as ‘wet’ pubs. If all these different types of venue have to have the same social distancing, time limits and implement table service only how is one more dangerous than the other?

“This is the Government formally saying they don’t trust the publicans of this country to follow the guidelines, they don’t trust pub staff to implement them and they don’t trust pub customers to behave themselves. The Government is pushing a message of “individual responsibility” but when it comes to pubs and pub customers it seems they are quite happy to deny us such rights and freedoms.

“Our industry has been hit extremely hard during this pandemic. Instead of trying to protect the 50,000 people and their families who depend on this industry they are almost vindictive in their desire to keep us closed. Well trust is a two way street. Trust in this Government has been eroding for some time and it will be interesting to see what their lack of trust in the pub sector and our customers will mean in the weeks ahead,” Mr. O’Keeffe concluded.

250 ‘wet’ pubs in Dublin will have been kept shut by the Government for 260 consecutive days by the 1st December. More than half the pubs in the country are ‘wet’ pubs. Most were only allowed to open for two weeks from the end of September, long after the current rise in infections began.

PROPOSALS WILL ALLOW BERLIN D2 TO OPEN AGAIN, WHILE KEEPING PUBS LIKE GROGANS CLOSED
© 2020 Licensed Vintners Association | Sitemap | Privacy Policy | Website maintained by Cogency

Tazz T · 25-11-2020 04:35PM

The irony of all this is that the gov made all the pubs spend thousands putting in place safety measures and they haven't been allowed to use them.

The sad fact is that if wet pubs aren't allowed to open at Xmas at the end of the second wave when infections are low, they won't open until the start of summer after the third wave and the whole pandemic has passed.

It used to be about flattening the curve, but now it's just about Level 3 and above and keeping schools open. Even the thought of opening wet pubs is taboo.

saabsaab · 25-11-2020 07:20PM

Even if they open it won't be as normal. Less than half capacity in most. I guess if they have open windows, open earlier have a 5 pint limit and close early it could work.

Neowise · 25-11-2020 07:51PM

saabsaab wrote: »

Even if they open it won't be as normal. Less than half capacity in most. I guess if they have open windows, open earlier have a 5 pint limit and close early it could work.

Why the 5 pint limit? If there is 4 at the table, only 1 person is allowed a second pint?

Tenzor07 · 25-11-2020 07:56PM

Neowise wrote: »

Why the 5 pint limit? If there is 4 at the table, only 1 person is allowed a second pint?

Bring along a mate who's a teetotaller, then you can have 10 pints... easy solution, no limits on Lemonade...

SB71 · 25-11-2020 09:33PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Yes, thats exactly the type of thinking those people espouse.

But they seem to lack the critical analysis to see the flaw in such a simplistic statement, or to consider that if matters were indeed according to that 'logic', that it is really plausible that such a conclusion be beyond the comprehension of the members of NPHET.

Critical analysis, how about NPHET actually producing evidence to actually show that pubs are a cause of a spike in cases, they cant because there is none, it's mere guesswork,completely flawed logic.

If someone was arrested on suspicion of murder or something and brought to court and insifficient evidence was produced do you think a judge or jury would convict that person because the arresting officer has "strong suspicion" this person is guilty, not a chance,NPHET despite being asked numerous times to produce actual evidence not hearsay have failed to do so, but they are so fixated on pubs hell will freeze over because Tony and his lackeys ever recommend they open.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 25-11-2020 09:37PM

SB71 wrote: »

Critical analysis, how about NPHET actually producing evidence to actually show that pubs are a cause of a spike in cases, they cant because there is none, it's mere guesswork,completely flawed logic.

If someone was arrested on suspicion of murder or something and brought to court and insifficient evidence was prodiuced do you think a judge or jury would convict that person because the arresting officer has "strong suspicion" this person is guilty, not a chance,NPHET despite being asked numerous times to produce actual evidence not hearsay have failed to do so, but they are so fixated on pubs hell will freeze over because Tony and his lackeys ever recommend they open.

NPHET still going off Februarys data model. Planning field hospitals and mass graves and keeping everything closed is the biggest farce in history.

SB71 · 25-11-2020 09:44PM

Cue a rush for pubs to buy a grill or cheap oven and bang in a few pizzas or toasted sandwiches in them just to comply with what are frankly the most bizzare nonsensical set of rules one can possibly imagine, jaysus when does this lunacy end, first it's the 105 minutes time limit and the €9 covid meal now more of the same, again you'll have the garda doing the rounds on weekends visiting pubs except this time they'll be asking to see where the oven or grill is, can you imagine the conversation garda asking"have ya an oven in here, well have ya" :eek::D

Even the most talented screenwriter would struggle to come up with such completely bonkers shi*e like this,what planet are these people actually on:eek:

the rock29 · 25-11-2020 09:48PM

https://www.thejournal.ie/court-overturns-order-to-shut-berlins-restaurants-bars-from-11pm-5235159-Oct2020/

SB71 · 25-11-2020 09:51PM

the rock29 wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/court-overturns-order-to-shut-berlins-restaurants-bars-from-11pm-5235159-Oct2020/

Good old Germans, they might be quite rigid and reserved but they would never accept any of the lunacy that we Irish have to contend with, proper order too.

MrStuffins · 25-11-2020 10:00PM

Hunky Monster wrote: »

NPHET still going off Februarys data model. Planning field hospitals and mass graves and keeping everything closed is the biggest farce in history.

Due to the measures put in place, thank God we didn't need field hospitals and mass graves like other countries who haven't handled this crisis as well.

Things could have been so much worse had we just let those who want to run wild do so.

rubadub · 25-11-2020 10:02PM

ingo1984 wrote: »

Don't think that's their agenda. If they wanted to curb drink consumption, just task it to the hilt like the Scandinavian countries or like they do with the cigarettes.

Exactly, there is still talk of this MUP nonsense coming in. MUP is not a tax, though many have been duped into believing it is, the pro MUP people keep very quiet about the fact the supermarkets are going to get the bulk of this profit, we only get a small % via VAT. If they increase excise to match MUP we stand to get billions in tax, it would add maybe a euro onto the price of a pint, so of course they won't.

I find it amusing that a few years ago you would always hear about how the politicians were helping out the pubs as they were buddies with publicans or were publicans themselves -which I did believe to some degree, but now the conspiracy crowd think they want to close them. A dramatic increase in excise would really help this plot, we need all the tax we can get so it would be a sneaky excuse to do it instead of MUP if they really did want to ruin pubs.

MOH wrote: »

If you can't make a valid point without resorting to abusive language, maybe it isn't that valid. Reported.

:eek: teacher, TEACHER, he said a bad word! I can picture you down the boozer, "haha!! you said sh*t/damn/fiddlesticks, I find that abusive, you lose!!! I WIN the argument, your points are no longer valid". Bizarre logic!

Obviously it hit a nerve as I see you are among those still feigning ignorance about the reasoning behind the meals. Why? seriously WHY? honestly, nobody believes you are that ignorant (hopefully no words you might find offensive this time, so no bizarre cop out!)

An operational kitchen now, is it? But I thought any food was scaring away the virus, so a pub could do a deal with a nearby restaurant to source food from them...

I also think the operational kitchen thing is nonsense. The substantial meal rules regarding children have been in pubs for years, and in restaurants for 50+ years. It is obvious that the aim is to curb drunkeness through food (I always considered it to be common knowledge!), so I see no reason why pubs bringing in outside catering should be ruled out. In fact I would think many pubs doing that might be more cautious about it, thinking it more likely to get a visit from the gardai to see if they are complying if they have no kitchen. I have only been in 1 pub since lockdown (much as I would like to be), and as I said most of my friends are heavy drinkers so have also avoided them, so maybe I am wrong and many pubs without kitchens are taking the piss about it, if I owned one I would be extra cautious and not want to ruin it for the rest of my fellow publicans.

MOH wrote: »

Can you point out where everyone has been asking for pubs to be open so people can go out on massive session and get hammered? No?

No, correct, I cannot point that out.

Not sure why you are asking me that?!, I certainly never claimed everyone asking for pubs to be open wants to get hammered...

I was simply saying the vast majority of people know fine well the intention of the meal laws. The only people I would believe who say they do not understand it would be very moderate or non-drinkers who genuinely do not realise that food intake greatly effects your blood alcohol level after drinking the same amount of alcohol. I have no time for liars, and many people on these threads are openly lying. They are making idiots out of themselves and causing further confusion to those who might genuinely be confused about it.

I see in your lengthy post you still refused to answer the question about this law being in place (which I have asked repeatedly), not surprising, nobody has, for very obvious reasons...

Children aged 15 and over, who are accompanied by their parent or guardian, can stay on the premises after 9:00 (10:00 pm from May to September) if they are attending a private function where a substantial meal is being served

piplip87 · 25-11-2020 10:04PM

Was taking to one of the local publicans today who started doing pizzas from the place next door but ran a tight ship, kept time limits and social distancing in place at all times. Says this week would have been his best week in possibly 10 years after the Cavan win the other night if it wasn't for COVID. I feel so sorry for those who did run tight ships during the summer.

saabsaab · 25-11-2020 10:14PM

Neowise wrote: »

Why the 5 pint limit? If there is 4 at the table, only 1 person is allowed a second pint?

5 per person, beer or anything else you like including red lemonade!

redarmy · 25-11-2020 10:19PM

BREAKING NEWS
Restaurants and pubs that serve food preparing to open next Friday

Degag · 25-11-2020 10:21PM

redarmy wrote: »

BREAKING NEWS
Restaurants and pubs that serve food preparing to open next Friday

Where did you see that?

Cork2021 · 25-11-2020 10:26PM

Fianna Fáil parliamentary party not happy that pubs won’t be opening. (Traditional pubs)

https://twitter.com/mcconnelldaniel/status/1331691961061945345?s=21

PTH2009 · 25-11-2020 10:30PM

Cork2021 wrote: »

Fianna Fáil parliamentary party not happy that pubs won’t be opening. (Traditional pubs)

https://twitter.com/mcconnelldaniel/status/1331691961061945345?s=21

He has a very valid point. All the work traditional pubs have gone too to get the premises up to covid regulation standard and there not allowed even open at that

MelbourneMan · 25-11-2020 11:58PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The lack of logic is just say 2 groups of 4 people sit at a table in a pub for 2 hours.

One group sits there and they have 4 pints each over 2 hours. There are 4 services of the 4 rounds.

Group 2 has 4 pints and a small meal over the 2 hours. There are 5 services of the 4 rounds and group of meals.

Who is more likely to contract the Virus, Group 1 or Group 2?

Remember you have a 2/3 people added to the kitchen service and you have increased the contact between staff and customer. You have also entered a new dynamic of cutlery and condiments.

The difference in your example is negligible, and not really an accurate way of assessing the situation. The crucial gain in the food scenario stipulation is the number of pubs that will be kept closed as a result and the deterring of patrons interested in only drinking through the 'entry fee' that the food brings. If anything it is set too low at 9€, but the requirement for true onsite catering facilities will serve well to redress that weakness.

MelbourneMan · 26-11-2020 12:02AM

Tazz T wrote: »

The irony of all this is that the gov made all the pubs spend thousands putting in place safety measures and they haven't been allowed to use them.

The sad fact is that if wet pubs aren't allowed to open at Xmas at the end of the second wave when infections are low, they won't open until the start of summer after the third wave and the whole pandemic has passed.

It used to be about flattening the curve, but now it's just about Level 3 and above and keeping schools open. Even the thought of opening wet pubs is taboo.

The first two observations are true, and unfortunate.

Your last two sentences are consistent - the importance of flattening the curve makes opening 'wet' pubs not a serious option.

MelbourneMan · 26-11-2020 12:11AM

opinionated3 wrote: »

Nphet don't care about their employment or their mental health. That much is obvious or else they would be doing their best to give these people a chance to show they can operate just as safely as barbers, gyms etc...I think it's obvious at this stage that there is an anti alcohol narrative being pursued by these " experts".

I would refer you to my post a couple of stages above and ask you to similarly consider, do you truly think it at all possible that those tasked with providing pandemic analysis advice to the government at this time would have any such motivation as an 'anti alcohol narrative'? Again, I would suggest this shows rather a lack of understanding of their terms of reference, the people involved, and the issues they are dealing with, or, something closer to an imagined conspiracy theory as a placeholder for that lack of understanding. Can you cite any firm evidence for your impression ?

I would urge people to accept the bona fides, knowledge, experience, and motivation to act in the interest of Ireland's fight against the pandemic, of the members of NPHET. Anyone doubting it is surely displaying some irrational frustration rather than truly arriving at that erroneous conclusion through considered reflection.

It would do everyone good to accept that there is no incompetence, hidden agendas, 'anti-pub' bias, or other such imagined motivations behind NPHET's advice.

stephenjmcd · 26-11-2020 12:11AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

the requirement for true onsite catering facilities will serve well to redress that weakness.

Yeah no it won't, plenty that were open last time around with their own kitchen had €9 specials, same again coming this time.

More nonsense posting pretending to have some sort of inside track, urging people to do this and that, like really why is your opinion to be seen as some sort of higher standing to anyone else's

mightyreds · 26-11-2020 12:13AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

The difference in your example is negligible, and not really an accurate way of assessing the situation. The crucial gain in the food scenario stipulation is the number of pubs that will be kept closed as a result and the deterring of patrons interested in only drinking through the 'entry fee' that the food brings. If anything it is set too low at 9€, but the requirement for true onsite catering facilities will serve well to redress that weakness.

Plenty of house parties around with no "entry fee" so it doesn't really matter all that much

26-11-2020 12:36AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

I would urge people to accept the bona fides, knowledge, experience, and motivation to act in the interest of Ireland's fight against the pandemic, of the members of NPHET.

I would urge you to insert that in your sphincter. You have no authority here, and unless you represent NPHET in official capacity there is little further to discuss.

Opening of "No-Food" pubs pushed out again

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