Home Automation Bargain Alerts thread - No General Chat

grogi · 17-11-2020 10:34AM

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Will i need to drain the rad to put the valves on?

I've a heating job being doen at the end of the week so it would have been ideal

You need to have the TRV valves. Once those are in place, installing Tado is just Plug-and-play, no mess.

unklerosco · 17-11-2020 10:52AM

Where Tado can come in handy is in older homes with no zones. I've a bungalow and it's just the one zone. When I changed all the rads I put a tado on each one. I now have multiple zones with plenty of control.

BoardsMember · 17-11-2020 11:01AM

Anyone know if the new Nest Home (google home new version) is likely to be discounted on Black Friday, either on a site like Currys or on the Google store itself?

Mickeroo · 17-11-2020 11:06AM

BoardsMember wrote: »

Anyone know if the new Nest Home (google home new version) is likely to be discounted on Black Friday, either on a site like Currys or on the Google store itself?

Google store tends to discount most of its items on Black Friday as do all of the retailers selling them. Pretty sure I got some nest minis in HN last black friday for a fiver less than what google were selling them for.

JDxtra · 17-11-2020 11:06AM

BoardsMember wrote: »

Anyone know if the new Nest Home (google home new version) is likely to be discounted on Black Friday, either on a site like Currys or on the Google store itself?

That is very likely. Nothing confirmed, but I'd expect it to be around €30.

garion · 17-11-2020 11:37AM

grogi wrote: »

No, definately not worth it. IMHO. More zones means more chaotic patterns for the boiler, which kills the efficency.

Put the Nests in the coldest rooms on each floor and leave traditional TRV on the rads.

That's one view alright but I've had Honeywell Evohome for the last 4 years and I love the room by room control. I'm not a plumber so I can't comment on boiler efficiency but from an end user perspective not having to manually turn on/off TRVs is brilliant.

Kids rooms are heated to 21 degrees automatically from 7pm to 7am. Our master bedroom is heated to 19 degrees from 9.30pm - 7am as we like it a little cooler. Kitchen downstairs heats at 6.30am, living room downstairs at 2pm when the kids get back from school. My office in the garage from 8.30am to 5pm Mon to Fri only.
All rooms controlled individually either via a schedule or through Google Assistant over voice or by app.

I'd imagine that most people who move from zones to room by room control would not go back.

Do some research and see what works for you and your needs.

Bluefoam · 17-11-2020 11:46AM

garion wrote: »

That's one view alright but I've had Honeywell Evohome for the last 4 years and I love the room by room control. I'm not a plumber so I can't comment on boiler efficiency but from an end user perspective not having to manually turn on/off TRVs is brilliant.

Kids rooms are heated to 21 degrees automatically from 7pm to 7am. Our master bedroom is heated to 19 degrees from 9.30pm - 7am as we like it a little cooler. Kitchen downstairs heats at 6.30am, living room downstairs at 2pm when the kids get back from school. My office in the garage from 8.30am to 5pm Mon to Fri only.
All rooms controlled individually either via a schedule or through Google Assistant over voice or by app.

I'd imagine that most people who move from zones to room by room control would not go back.

Do some research and see what works for you and your needs.

Depends on your house type and living arrangements... What works for one doesn't work for all... My living room and kitchen, while separated by doors, act as one... I don't heat the upstairs because the house is well insulated... I just like the towel rail on for showers in the morning... Nest is far better for this, while radiator controls are way overkill, too complex and too much maintenance...

garion · 17-11-2020 12:01PM

Bluefoam wrote: »

Depends on your house type and living arrangements... What works for one doesn't work for all... My living room and kitchen, while separated by doors, act as one... I don't heat the upstairs because the house is well insulated... I just like the towel rail on for showers in the morning... Nest is far better for this, while radiator controls are way overkill, too complex and too much maintenance...

Yep, fully agree - all depends on your needs.

IMO radiator controls are very simple to operate. The only thing I've had to do with mine is replace the batteries (2 rechargable AAs) every 18 months or so - the app warns you when they're running now.

grogi · 17-11-2020 12:08PM

garion wrote: »

That's one view alright but I've had Honeywell Evohome for the last 4 years and I love the room by room control. I'm not a plumber so I can't comment on boiler efficiency but from an end user perspective not having to manually turn on/off TRVs is brilliant.

Evohome is not Tado, with the latter being probably 5x cheaper.

From my experience, Tado has a significant limitation of not being able to just open the TRV without calling for heat. For that reason tado multiroom doesn't work well.

paulgrogan.eu · 17-11-2020 12:13PM

garion wrote: »

That's one view alright but I've had Honeywell Evohome for the last 4 years and I love the room by room control. I'm not a plumber so I can't comment on boiler efficiency but from an end user perspective not having to manually turn on/off TRVs is brilliant.

Kids rooms are heated to 21 degrees automatically from 7pm to 7am. Our master bedroom is heated to 19 degrees from 9.30pm - 7am as we like it a little cooler. Kitchen downstairs heats at 6.30am, living room downstairs at 2pm when the kids get back from school. My office in the garage from 8.30am to 5pm Mon to Fri only.
All rooms controlled individually either via a schedule or through Google Assistant over voice or by app.

I'd imagine that most people who move from zones to room by room control would not go back.

Do some research and see what works for you and your needs.

I'm a new Tado user since earlier this year and thanks to buying up the parts via various Black Friday, Cyber Monday, random offers etc, I bought up all the parts in stages and by the time I did the install during the summer, had all the parts including TRV's for all my rads. I'd fully agree with this post and my schedule is nearly identical to this.

It's horses for courses for sure as another poster has said, but anyone here can take it that there is at least 2 users here on a very similar level of control (all be it 2 different branded systems) with a similar schedule and level of control that wouldn't dream of going back to the old way. Having room by room control sounds like overkill, but it's certainly worth the effort in the long run.

I guess I won't know until next year how it's impacted my heating bill overall, but at a minimum I have the confidence in knowing that I'm only heating the rooms I'm using, when I'm using them, as opposed to just turning the dial on the manual timer and blasting the whole house out of it just so our bedrooms can be warm at night, or our living room be warm in the evening while watching tv.

deezell · 17-11-2020 12:15PM

grogi wrote: »

Evohome is not Tado, with the latter being probably 5x cheaper.

From my experience, Tado has a significant limitation of not being able to just open the TRV without calling for heat. For that reason tado multiroom doesn't work well.

You can install Tado TRVs in non boiler mode, where they operate like manual TRVs, albeit with full app control. Tado supply these as a kit with the bridge, specifically for community heated buildings, apartments, where the heat source is central, and not controlled or 'called' by the TRV. It should be possible to disassociate a TRV from the main stat, support can do this.

grogi · 17-11-2020 12:18PM

paulgrogan.eu wrote: »

I guess I won't know until next year how it's impacted my heating bill overall, but at a minimum I have the confidence in knowing that I'm only heating the rooms I'm using, when I'm using them, as opposed to just turning the dial on the manual timer and blasting the whole house out of it just so our bedrooms can be warm at night, or our living room be warm in the evening while watching tv.

The energy loss reduction is around 20% (https://core.ac.uk/display/77035376). But that comes with reduced efficency of the boiler - so overall the difference might not be that significant.

championc · 17-11-2020 04:49PM

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Will i need to drain the rad to put the valves on?

Ive a heating job being doen at the end of the week so it would have been ideal

So TRV Valve bodies are different from a standard Manual value. But Tado supply adapters which then clamp their TRV's to any TRV body

championc · 17-11-2020 05:00PM

grogi wrote: »

The energy loss reduction is around 20% (https://core.ac.uk/display/77035376). But that comes with reduced efficency of the boiler - so overall the difference might not be that significant.

All I know is that I'm not heating rooms now which I previously would have heated. Previously, heating came on for the whole downstairs, now it only heats the kitchen and dining room (where I'm WFH)

ctlsleh · 17-11-2020 10:00PM

grogi wrote: »

Evohome is not Tado, with the latter being probably 5x cheaper.

From my experience, Tado has a significant limitation of not being able to just open the TRV without calling for heat. For that reason tado multiroom doesn't work well.

Boiler efficiency was one concern for sure. Im not even sure how efficient it is with my dual zone nests. I have a 2500 sq ft house, 2 story with a Grant Vortex 90-120 boiler. I do like the idea of Tado, but ill probably stick with what i have for the moment. Thanks for all the insights and opinions, great to hear different views

deezell · 17-11-2020 10:45PM

ctlsleh wrote: »

Boiler efficiency was one concern for sure. Im not even sure how efficient it is with my dual zone nests. I have a 2500 sq ft house, 2 story with a Grant Vortex 90-120 boiler. I do like the idea of Tado, but ill probably stick with what i have for the moment. Thanks for all the insights and opinions, great to hear different views

Boiler efficiency is not related to the number of TRVs zones, but more to do with the circulating water temperature. Maximum efficiency is achieved when the boiler reduces the temperature by pulsing or modulating the firing, such that sufficient temperature is maintained in the radiators to satisfy room demand, while ensuring the cooled return is at the least technically feasible temperature. Boilers operated by OpenTherm digital connections are best able to achieve this optimisation, but will only be able to take a connection from a single OT stat (Evohome and another brand can manage this though).
I'm not sure what happens when Tado OT stat calls on behalf of a TRV, but I'd say there is a multi zone algorithm at play. It's moot with tado anyway, as even with a straight SL connection to the boiler, it modulates the firing either side of target temperature on the Stat or TRV. It doesn't have the benefit of boiler return temperature readings available via OT from an OT equipped boiler, but it does a very good simulation of OT control.
I'd not worry about the marginal inefficiency of a boiler receiving multiples calls from many TRVs, as many of these will be closed or partly closed, their rooms won't overheat. A one or two zone stat only system is always a compromise, with only the stat locations being accurately monitored, unused rooms will heat, and open radiators in other rooms in the zone may well overheat their room, which is far more inefficient, unless capped by a manual TRV.

grogi · 17-11-2020 11:29PM

deezell wrote: »

I'd not worry about the marginal inefficiency of a boiler receiving multiples calls from many TRVs, as many of these will be closed or partly closed, their rooms won't overheat. A one or two zone stat only system is always a compromise, with only the stat locations being accurately monitored, unused rooms will heat, and open radiators in other rooms in the zone may well overheat their room, which is far more inefficient, unless capped by a manual TRV.

It actually is the other way round - you get best energy utilization if all radiators heat up simultaneously. As you well explained, the boiler efficiency is directly linked to the temperature of water coming back into the boiler: the colder, the better. One radiator won't cool the water as much as many of them, so when only one TRV is open, water is warmer and efficiency loss happens. I might be wrong, but I haven't noticed Tado doing any coordination between the rads, so you might have two calling for heat in alternating periods.

Sure, there are some gains to be made by having separate room controls. Especially in bigger properties sparsely populated with rooms being completely unutilized at certain times. In a typical family house with a few people moving around - not so much.

deezell · 18-11-2020 12:19AM

What Tado does is learns the rate of increase in temperature in a zone when the boiler is called. It will not know the return temperature unless OT connected, but it will know how many zones are active. It wouldn't take much knowledge to write an algorithm that assumes the boiler will work more efficiently in this case by modulatimg the firing so that there is less circulation of the heating water as there are less open rads, while still having sufficient water temperature to bring the rooms to required temperature quickly.
Even with all rads open on a single zone system, most stats will call for heat regardless of the return temperature, and unless your boiler output is a close match to steady state demand, it will have an ever increasing temperature on its return until the stat cuts. A smart boiler might well mitigate this by simply cutting the fuel while measuring return temperature, knowing that it can continue to circulate this heated water for a while without degrading the warm up time of the room, about which it had no feedback. Most modern boilers, gas on particular, are fitted with a return flow stat, and have their own firing logic, without any input from the stat.
As far as Tado goes, when its calling a boiler via SL, it has no knowledge of the boilers efficiency measures, though Tado do ask for your boiler model when configuring your system initially.
What they do have is a set of firing patterns, low, medium and full, and they switch between these pulsed patterns as the temperature rises to target. These show on the graph as shades of grey, on the app as 1 to 3 wavy lines. Running your finger over a days recorded data will show exactly how the boiler switched between these different power levels, which themselves are achieved by on/off modulation. It's rare that it will fire at full, unless starting from a huge temperature differential, or when 'someone' presses the boost timer on the app, which produces a dark grey 3 wavy line burst bar which is characterised by extending down over the base schedule horizontal bar, (orange and blue for temperatures above or below 19° , and green when in Away mode.) Check out this little screen capture of the graph as I run my (invisible) finger left to right.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nsqEi9JETPggE-vh15T43-BxgSz5C80h/view?usp=drivesdk

championc · 18-11-2020 01:24AM

deezell wrote: »

What Tado does is learns the rate of increase in temperature in a zone when the boiler is called. It will not know the return temperature unless OT connected, but it will know how many zones are active. It wouldn't take much knowledge to write an algorithm that assumes the boiler will work more efficiently in this case by modulatimg the firing so that there is less circulation of the heating water as there are less open rads, while still having sufficient water temperature to bring the rooms to required temperature quickly.
Even with all rads open on a single zone system, most stats will call for heat regardless of the return temperature, and unless your boiler output is a close match to steady state demand, it will have an ever increasing temperature on its return until the stat cuts. A smart boiler might well mitigate this by simply cutting the fuel while measuring return temperature, knowing that it can continue to circulate this heated water for a while without degrading the warm up time of the room, about which it had no feedback. Most modern boilers, gas on particular, are fitted with a return flow stat, and have their own firing logic, without any input from the stat.
As far as Tado goes, when its calling a boiler via SL, it has no knowledge of the boilers efficiency measures, though Tado do ask for your boiler model when configuring your system initially.
What they do have is a set of firing patterns, low, medium and full, and they switch between these pulsed patterns as the temperature rises to target. These show on the graph as shades of grey, on the app as 1 to 3 wavy lines. Running your finger over a days recorded data will show exactly how the boiler switched between these different power levels, which themselves are achieved by on/off modulation. It's rare that it will fire at full, unless starting from a huge temperature differential, or when 'someone' presses the boost timer on the app, which produces a dark grey 3 wavy line burst bar which is characterised by extending down over the base schedule horizontal bar, (orange and blue for temperatures above or below 19° , and green when in Away mode.) Check out this little screen capture of the graph as I run my (invisible) finger left to right.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nsqEi9JETPggE-vh15T43-BxgSz5C80h/view?usp=drivesdk

Indeed. The part that provides huge efficiency is the way that TRV's learn the time it takes to raise a room temperature from Xdeg to Ydeg.

The important part is the way the boiler stops running (or the TRV closes) up to 10 mins before the room reaches the desired temperature since it is still delivering heat to the room. So if you want a room at 21deg, that's what you get.

Are large part of wasted energy is due to overheating rooms , especially too when the warmer the temperature, the more energy proportionately required to reach that temperature, even though that high temperature may not really be required.

WeleaseWoderick · 18-11-2020 10:37AM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Google store tends to discount most of its items on Black Friday as do all of the retailers selling them. Pretty sure I got some nest minis in HN last black friday for a fiver less than what google were selling them for.

I see that Google have started their Black Friday deals on their UK store today. Does the Irish store usually follow soon after?

Clareman · 18-11-2020 10:48AM

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

I see that Google have started their Black Friday deals on their UK store today. Does the Irish store usually follow soon after?

They've dropped on the Irish store as well, Nest Hello is down to €194.46* for example

Clareman · 18-11-2020 10:53AM

Might as well put them all in 1 post, Google Store Black Friday deals on the Irish site

Nest Hello - 194.46 down from 274.46
Nest Hub - €68.53 down from €88.53
Nest Audio - €78.36 down from €98.36
Nest Cam Indoor - €87.71 down from €137.71
Stadia Premier- €68.85 down from €98.36
Stadia Controller - €50.91 down from €67.88
Nest Mini - €33.04 down from €58.04

jones · 18-11-2020 11:28AM

Clareman wrote: »

Might as well put them all in 1 post, Google Store Black Friday deals on the Irish site

Nest Hello - 194.46 down from 274.46
Nest Hub - €68.53 down from €88.53
Nest Audio - €78.36 down from €98.36
Nest Cam Indoor - €87.71 down from €137.71
Stadia Premier- €68.85 down from €98.36
Stadia Controller - €50.91 down from €67.88
Nest Mini - €33.04 down from €58.04

Why do Google refuse to sell the Nest hub max on the irish store? Very odd

WeleaseWoderick · 18-11-2020 11:47AM

Do the Nest Wifi Points ever get reduced? I picked up one of the older model Google wifi routers on clearance last year but could definitely do with a Point in the back of the house. Or can I just use a second Nest wifi router as a Point?

JDxtra · 18-11-2020 11:50AM

Nest Mini currently £19 on Currys UK site. Keep an eyenon Irish store to see if they get a similar heavy discount.

deezell · 18-11-2020 11:56AM

JDxtra wrote: »

Nest Mini currently £19 on Currys UK site. Keep an eyenon Irish store to see if they get a similar heavy discount.

We got 5 of these free last year on a single Google play family account. Every assigned member was entitled to one, different addresses, didn't matter. They must make them for a couple of Euro.

ablelocks · 18-11-2020 12:53PM

just a thought - should the heating related posts be moved to the heating automation thread (if possible) - there's lots of learnings there that will get lost if they stay in the BA thread.

slicedpanman · 18-11-2020 01:47PM

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

Do the Nest Wifi Points ever get reduced? I picked up one of the older model Google wifi routers on clearance last year but could definitely do with a Point in the back of the house. Or can I just use a second Nest wifi router as a Point?

Yes... The router can and does also work as a node. And yeah, they do sometimes drop the price of the nodes

Sheep Shagger · 18-11-2020 03:41PM

jones wrote: »

Why do Google refuse to sell the Nest hub max on the irish store? Very odd

Yeah is mad Dixons at the airport is the only way to buy...either that or buy in UK with parcel motel.

Ryath · 18-11-2020 04:40PM

WeleaseWoderick wrote: »

Do the Nest Wifi Points ever get reduced? I picked up one of the older model Google wifi routers on clearance last year but could definitely do with a Point in the back of the house. Or can I just use a second Nest wifi router as a Point?

Bit of a discount on amazon about £105~ €119
€131 in argos

Trying to hold out for a better offer myself, have single one of the old version in centre of house. Reception is good everywhere except the alcove where the TV is. Going to get the router to put there as it has ethernet ports so I can hardwire it back. The Nest Wifi Point doesn't have ethernet ports.

Bundle is €229
https://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/4339186/Trail/searchtext%3ENEST+WIFI.htm

Home Automation Bargain Alerts thread - No General Chat

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