Refereeing standards.

It's a really tough job in fairness and seems to be getting more difficult every year. Whatever about football, imagine refereeing a game of hurling with 2 top sides involved in these conditions in November. The sheer physicality and speed like we saw today between Limerick and Waterford, or the dogfight in Limerick last night with Tipp/Cork. These players are professional athletes in all but name. Ref needs all the help he can get nowadays from his umpires and linesmen and fourth official. Some may be too proud/headstrong to accept that help and may feel undermined.
That game you mention between Louth/Meath some years back will be forever etched in memory as a gigantic cock-up between the ref, 2 umpires and at least 1 linesman.

A classic case of the 'little team' being shafted. Never seems to happen the other way round for some reason....;);)

yop wrote: »

the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.

This a hundred times. Definitely think the linesmen could be given more responsibility to make calls on decisions that happen much closer to them than the ref.
Like in soccer where a foul along the sideline that might be out of the referees line of sight is brought to his attention straight away by a simple waving of a flag.

Like others have said it's a thankless job but there is such a range in capabilities at the very highest level from week to week.
David Gough is miles ahead of his colleagues. A lot of it seems to come from his ability to read a game and know where play is going to develop. He is able to consistently call a defender for off the ball shirt pull just before the pass goes in that direction.

I find the choice of referees astounding sometimes. For example, for today’s Ulster semi final, they pick a referee from Cavan’s biggest and oldest rivals Monaghan who is reffing his first intercounty game!

Cavan also get Meath referees like Coldrick & Cormac Reilly a lot. It’s safe to say Reilly has never done us as favour in any game. Meath may not be in the same province but they are a bordering county and they’d always been a bit of rivalry between the two counties.

Umpires are fair ****e too. How didn't they spot Madden was out of play when he tackled the Down keeper?

Clareman wrote: »

I think every video ref system should be on the managers call, American Football and tennis have great setups that if the manager want to challenge a decision they alert the ref, tell them what they think is the problem and then it's reviewed, if it's upheld they get their challenge back they keep it if they don't they loose it. Problem with GAA is there are so many fouls that there's very rarely a passage of play without a foul somewhere on the pitch

I think something like this would be good on major decisions - red cards, goals, penalties etc. That Cavan penalty should have been a free out and had a massive impact on the result of the game.

I think the standard has been good this year.

No major controversies and most of the big calls have been correct.

I would be in favour of micing up the refs, it would make his decisions more transparent and hopefully cut down on the noise from the barstool "rules experts" which referees are bound to hear/read about.
Hopefully it would make players think twice before whinging about decisions if they know they are being heard by everyone.

Timekeeping needs to be done independently also to reduce workload and controversy.

As long as I have been alive people have been complaining about referees, the OP could have been written any time in the last 20 years.

bucketybuck wrote: »

As long as I have been alive people have been complaining about referees, the OP could have been written any time in the last 20 years.

Its an impossible game to ref. If every foul is blown, the ref will be widely criticised so instead a lot is left go e.g. the outrageous way Aidan O'Shea was treated yesterday. hes a big man so is expected to take all sorts of abuse (and I'm not a Mayo man).

tayto lover wrote: »

For me this is one of the biggest problems the GAA has and it needs to be addressed.
Since the debacle in the Louth v Meath Leinster Final of 2010 I have been watching the performances of referees and have seen many very poor performances. Teams train hard, travel long distances to train, diet properly and give up their time missing out on many family occasions in an effort to win things for their counties. The players deserve better.

Today I watched the Cavan v Down match and the referee was extremely poor.
He allowed a Mark inside the 45 which should have ended up a lineball to Cavan which ended up a Down goal, allowed a Down forward the advantage to go ahead and score the goal after being fouled. No problem with the advantage but he denied a Cavan forward the same advantage when about to shoot for goal bringing him back for free kick.
It was so bad I thought he had backed Down.

I have seen many more instances of poor refereeing in the last 10 years.

Time the GAA addressed the issue of poor refereeing.

What do you want the GAA to do to address refereeing?
Can you recall many incidents of good refereeing as there nearly always is just posts criticising referees who had poor games.

yop wrote: »

The speed of the game has a big impact on how the ref can manage it. These players are at a serious level of fitness.
the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.

What do you do about that? Get umpires the ability to call fouls more? Same with linesmen able to do more.

Clareman wrote: »

It's a terrible, thankless job and anyone who thinks that the intercounty ref isn't up to it I would suggest going down to your local club and trying it for yourself, event at underage or junior level it's an extremely difficult job. At intercounty level the game is so fast its impossible for 1 person to keep up with it and I don't think 2 refs would help, the ref being at ground level in the middle of the action is a major problem in my opinion. Personally I'd like to see a ref advisor up in the stand, being high up could keep an eye on everything while allow the ref concentrate on technical fouls.

I would also be looking to take as many decisions out of the refs hands as possible, taking control of the time and score out of their hands could be an easy win. Another major problem is the fact that there are so many rules and a lot of the rules are up to interupation or for the ref to judge the players intent.

Would agree with plenty of that but dont see anything like someone up in the stand being the answer. Have a TMO for the top level but at all levels use umpires and linesmen more. Ref should still be keeping score and time but linesmen, umpires should also be doing it as back up/ensuring its right.
Having many rules being interpreted isnt really an issue as its always going to be case.

Comic Book Guy wrote: »

This a hundred times. Definitely think the linesmen could be given more responsibility to make calls on decisions that happen much closer to them than the ref.
Like in soccer where a foul along the sideline that might be out of the referees line of sight is brought to his attention straight away by a simple waving of a flag.

Like others have said it's a thankless job but there is such a range in capabilities at the very highest level from week to week.
David Gough is miles ahead of his colleagues. A lot of it seems to come from his ability to read a game and know where play is going to develop. He is able to consistently call a defender for off the ball shirt pull just before the pass goes in that direction.

Same in rugby. Linesmen can bring to attention of referee incidents of foul play by putting their flag out. Officials need to use their voice more to prevent fouls before they happen.

Smacruairi wrote: »

Rugby has built in stoppages, diff restarts depending on evidence.

Gaa does not.

GAA does have stoppages that you can use to look at whatever neccesaary.

padd b1975 wrote: »

I think the standard has been good this year.

No major controversies and most of the big calls have been correct.

I would be in favour of micing up the refs, it would make his decisions more transparent and hopefully cut down on the noise from the barstool "rules experts" which referees are bound to hear/read about.
Hopefully it would make players think twice before whinging about decisions if they know they are being heard by everyone.

Timekeeping needs to be done independently also to reduce workload and controversy.

Officials still need to keep time though even if you do have a 5th official keeping it. Miccing refs at the top level has to happen. brings clarity on what their decisions are and may get players to think twice of giving abuse as well

Strumms wrote: »

Couldn’t be done, there would be an outcry from players and indeed officials...id be with them....also a bit too much f-bombing and some for 3.30 on a Sunday.

To be honest, it’s getting a bit too ‘reality tv’. I don’t care who says what... just that the right calls are made...

It could be done. Why would officials give out about it happening?
If it made some players think twice about what they say on pitch at times then thats a good thing. No?

Smacruairi wrote: »

Just on the giving linesmen and umpire more powers.

1.sometimes there's a reason they are on the sideline and not in the middle..
2. When you're in the middle of the pitch you have a 3d view, when you're on the sideline and behind the goal you have a 2d view. The last thing you want is lads with a far worse view of something offering you an opinion, that's why you don't see guys getting involved from 80yards away.
3. There will always be bad decisions. We accept this in practically every walk of life except refereeing. No one sets out to make a mistake, it happens. Why do players think there's some shadowy agenda? No one wants to make a mistake, you spend hours training, attending seminars, doing ****e matches in **** grounds when you make a mistake at a bigger level etc. Everyone is trying to get better and do their best like? Isn't that the amateur code of the gaa?

Linesmen are qualified officials as much as the people in the middle and can be expected to be reffing games regularly as well.
Not always will the ref have the best view and the linesmen can assist and help make the best decision.
Of course mistakes will be made/bad decisions happen but thats why you use all the resources available to make the best decision and that has to include making better use of the 6 extra officials on the pitch.

Smacruairi wrote: »

Right, to give you an example.

Middle of the park, tackle, ref says no foul. Player breaking away, linesman says "foul foul". Does the ref give it, he was closer and felt he had the better view. What if he gives it and the linesman was wrong?now what? What if that player breaking was through on goal? What if he had a team mate come and support him from defence, but then you go back for a foul and he is now out of position because thr other team now want to take a kick quickly.

My experience was with soccer so I can't comment on the intricacies of GAA but the point im sure carries across most codes.

I ref rugby. Played all the others. Well up to the GAA central council etc to make whatever changed needed.

What would you want to be done then to improve things? Yes there can be mistakes but if there is procedures to follow and linesmen can only make calls in specific circumstances then you do that.

Smacruairi wrote: »

You keep training, coaching, educating referees, support, encourage (punish if very necessary!). But I think accepting that you will never have a perfect match is key. If you ref rugby then you'll know the situation where you've had to read body language, go on the balance of probabilities, just get a hunch and go with it. Im also sure you've got things wrong too, and some decisions you knew were right despite no one believing you.

I think rugby with its advantage law it gives so much more leeway to the game. If you could answer what you would do in my no win hypothetical for gaa above you might see the challenges.

think harsher retrospective actions for players for cheating, for violent conduct, for internationally circumventing the laws would help a lot. Technology for offsides /hawkeye etc is obviously great. But the more tech comes in, the more it slows down the game. VAR is killing the spirit of the laws of the game.

You over rule the linesmen. Which you can do in rugby.

What training do most referees get? Yes that needs improving at all levels in GAA.
Technology should always be used as available. I will always take having a game a tiny bit slower where the correct decision is made then continue on with no technology and have clear mistakes from players/officials not caught. And a game will never be slowed down by much with technology being used anyway.

Smacruairi wrote: »

Sometimes the ref is right to over rule, sometimes he is wrong. That's the whole point of my argument about every decision being a committee decision, no it doesn't work like. You have fans here saying "he got it wrong he should have gone over to check", but if he went over to check and the assistant was wrong, the same fans would say "what was he asking for". Literally can't win, and you won't win.

What training do refs get, is that a serious question? You're a rugby referee, have you not had fitness sessions, then local panel sessions, national panel sessions, video analysis, laws of the game tests on a yearly basis at least?

You say tiny bit slower, but yet we have decisions taking 3 minutes or so to be made. How many times can that be done? You could channel practically every dribble in gaa football for steps sure, no goals would be allowed for one, and I say that as a fan of Dublins kev mc!

Technology works with rugby because its a phased game, attrition, very very few intercepts. Gaa is far more end to end.

I never have said or implied every decision is a committee meeting or should be.
Im asking what training do GAA refs get on regular basis? Can you tell me?
3 minutes to get a decision right is a million times better than a wrong decision being made in 10 seconds.
We do our own fitness sessions. we have group fitness sessions for those who want it but mainly its on your own. we have occasional tests of laws but there isnt a major laws test. main way of coaching and improving referees is an experienced ref/former ref will watch you and give you feedback on your game with feedback in variety areas of game.
You need to use technology to assist the refs because the game is so end to end. The game is end to end therefore refs will miss plenty and is even more a reason technology should be used to assist the right decisions being made.

Smacruairi wrote: »

So in my example again, tackle midfield, some ppl think foul, some people think not, when do you want technology to be brought in. The game could still be in play for the next 2 mins before the crucial point or goal. Do you then go back and check for that foul?

In all honesty, the main problem is the tackle. There is a rule but refs leave a lot go. If they blew for every foul, they would whistle all day. Define the tackle more clearly as only playing the ball or a fair shoulder. Fellows are getting punched around the chest and stomach and not getting a free.