Refereeing standards.

tayto lover · 15-11-2020 10:04pm #1

For me this is one of the biggest problems the GAA has and it needs to be addressed.
Since the debacle in the Louth v Meath Leinster Final of 2010 I have been watching the performances of referees and have seen many very poor performances. Teams train hard, travel long distances to train, diet properly and give up their time missing out on many family occasions in an effort to win things for their counties. The players deserve better.

Today I watched the Cavan v Down match and the referee was extremely poor.
He allowed a Mark inside the 45 which should have ended up a lineball to Cavan which ended up a Down goal, allowed a Down forward the advantage to go ahead and score the goal after being fouled. No problem with the advantage but he denied a Cavan forward the same advantage when about to shoot for goal bringing him back for free kick.
It was so bad I thought he had backed Down.

I have seen many more instances of poor refereeing in the last 10 years.

Time the GAA addressed the issue of poor refereeing.

yop · 15-11-2020 10:14pm

tayto lover wrote: »

For me this is one of the biggest problems the GAA has and it needs to be addressed.
Since the debacle in the Louth v Meath Leinster Final of 2010 I have been watching the performances of referees and have seen many very poor performances. Teams train hard, travel long distances to train, diet properly and give up their time missing out on many family occasions in an effort to win things for their counties. The players deserve better.

Today I watched the Cavan v Down match and the referee was extremely poor.
He allowed a Mark inside the 45 which should have ended up a lineball to Cavan which ended up a Down goal, allowed a Down forward the advantage to go ahead and score the goal after being fouled. No problem with the advantage but he denied a Cavan forward the same advantage when about to shoot for goal bringing him back for free kick.
It was so bad I thought he had backed Down.

I have seen many more instances of poor refereeing in the last 10 years.

Time the GAA addressed the issue of poor refereeing.

The speed of the game has a big impact on how the ref can manage it. These players are at a serious level of fitness.
the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.

washman3 · 15-11-2020 10:29pm

It's a really tough job in fairness and seems to be getting more difficult every year. Whatever about football, imagine refereeing a game of hurling with 2 top sides involved in these conditions in November. The sheer physicality and speed like we saw today between Limerick and Waterford, or the dogfight in Limerick last night with Tipp/Cork. These players are professional athletes in all but name. Ref needs all the help he can get nowadays from his umpires and linesmen and fourth official. Some may be too proud/headstrong to accept that help and may feel undermined.
That game you mention between Louth/Meath some years back will be forever etched in memory as a gigantic cock-up between the ref, 2 umpires and at least 1 linesman.

A classic case of the 'little team' being shafted. Never seems to happen the other way round for some reason....;);)

baconsarnie · 15-11-2020 10:29pm

tayto lover wrote: »

For me this is one of the biggest problems the GAA has and it needs to be addressed.
Since the debacle in the Louth v Meath Leinster Final of 2010 I have been watching the performances of referees and have seen many very poor performances. Teams train hard, travel long distances to train, diet properly and give up their time missing out on many family occasions in an effort to win things for their counties. The players deserve better.

Today I watched the Cavan v Down match and the referee was extremely poor.
He allowed a Mark inside the 45 which should have ended up a lineball to Cavan which ended up a Down goal, allowed a Down forward the advantage to go ahead and score the goal after being fouled. No problem with the advantage but he denied a Cavan forward the same advantage when about to shoot for goal bringing him back for free kick.
It was so bad I thought he had backed Down.

I have seen many more instances of poor refereeing in the last 10 years.

Time the GAA addressed the issue of poor refereeing.

He was from Monaghan, say no more

Clareman · 15-11-2020 10:36pm

It's a terrible, thankless job and anyone who thinks that the intercounty ref isn't up to it I would suggest going down to your local club and trying it for yourself, event at underage or junior level it's an extremely difficult job. At intercounty level the game is so fast its impossible for 1 person to keep up with it and I don't think 2 refs would help, the ref being at ground level in the middle of the action is a major problem in my opinion. Personally I'd like to see a ref advisor up in the stand, being high up could keep an eye on everything while allow the ref concentrate on technical fouls.

I would also be looking to take as many decisions out of the refs hands as possible, taking control of the time and score out of their hands could be an easy win. Another major problem is the fact that there are so many rules and a lot of the rules are up to interupation or for the ref to judge the players intent.

tayto lover · 15-11-2020 10:37pm

yop wrote: »

The speed of the game has a big impact on how the ref can manage it. These players are at a serious level of fitness.
the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.

I agree to a point but it doesn’t alleviate the problem.
Nothing being done about it.

Smacruairi · 15-11-2020 10:42pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree to a point but it doesn’t alleviate the problem.
Nothing being done about it.

What would you have done? I ask because for years ppl moaned about offside in soccer and wanted video tech, and now that it is in (despite massive opposition from referees mind), everyone is saying it ruins the game.

3 simple suggestions not aimed at referees personally, but at the system of refereeing would suffice.

Clareman · 15-11-2020 10:45pm

It's a game played by humans ref'd by humans, errors are going to happen, I don't think any sport has perfect decision makers, even tennis with technology and 7 refs for 2 players has issues.

In my opinion all the officials are too close to the play, the umpires being at the post being case in point.

Clareman · 15-11-2020 10:48pm

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree to a point but it doesn’t alleviate the problem.
Nothing being done about it.

The support and training that refs get is brilliant, there's lots being done about it, if you think that nothing is being done about it you should see what was happening about 10 years ago, we're lightyears ahead now. The main problem is that the rules are the same for a Junior B game as All Ireland final so any changes will have to be for both, having hawkeye available in a couple of grounds is making a mockery of it, anything that's decided needs to be for everyone

yop · 15-11-2020 10:50pm

I've reffed under age and only been a lowly umpire at a few masters games and tbh it happens so fast even at that level it's easy make a mistake.
Never mind at the level and intensity these play at and there's plenty of trickery going on.

We've now gotten 20 different angles and replays to review but they don't.

I'm guilty as anyone but at the end of the day it's a thankless and tough job IMO

Clareman · 15-11-2020 10:53pm

yop wrote: »

I've reffed under age and only been a lowly umpire at a few masters games and tbh it happens so fast even at that level it's easy make a mistake.
Never mind at the level and intensity these play at and there's plenty of trickery going on.

We've now gotten 20 different angles and replays to review but they don't.

I'm guilty as anyone but at the end of the day it's a thankless and tough job IMO

Yup yop

:D:D:D I find when doing points umpire at grounds where you can't get back behind the goal that your either hoping for help from the linesmen or making educated guesses.

yop · 15-11-2020 10:58pm

Clareman wrote: »

Yup yop :D:D:D I find when doing points umpire at grounds where you can't get back behind the goal that your either hoping for help from the linesmen or making educated guesses.

Stop I had the sun in my eyes and shorts sprints were never my forte. We were playing the dubs so I had to guess a few

tayto lover · 15-11-2020 10:59pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

What would you have done? I ask because for years ppl moaned about offside in soccer and wanted video tech, and now that it is in (despite massive opposition from referees mind), everyone is saying it ruins the game.

3 simple suggestions not aimed at referees personally, but at the system of refereeing would suffice.

Only need one.
For Senior inter county matches you need the same system as rugby has I.e a video ref. The game wouldn’t be stopped for long at all and even if it was then the players would get and deserve the right decision. It doesn’t ruin the game one bit.

Clareman · 15-11-2020 11:02pm

yop wrote: »

Stop I had the sun in my eyes and shorts sprints were never my forte. We were playing the dubs so I had to guess a few

I always found when the goalie was shouting wide wide wide that it was a point :pac::pac::pac:

Couple of games I did for a particular goalie he was the best umpire ever, he used to tap the crossbar for every point, go for the puck out straight away for a wide and if it was dodgy the louder he was the more likely it was to have been a point.

Clareman · 15-11-2020 11:05pm

tayto lover wrote: »

You I kneed one.
For Senior inter county matches you need the same system as rugby has I.e a video ref. The game wouldn’t be stopped for long at all and even if it was then the players would get and deserve the right decision. It doesn’t ruin the game one bit.

I think every video ref system should be on the managers call, American Football and tennis have great setups that if the manager want to challenge a decision they alert the ref, tell them what they think is the problem and then it's reviewed, if it's upheld they get their challenge back they keep it if they don't they loose it. Problem with GAA is there are so many fouls that there's very rarely a passage of play without a foul somewhere on the pitch

Clareman · 15-11-2020 11:09pm

I'm watching the Sunday Game here the Cork Tipp game is on and I'll keeping an eye out for fouls, the amount of pulls, grabs, over carrying, off the ball stuff would make a video ref impossible I'd say.

Comic Book Guy · 15-11-2020 11:10pm

yop wrote: »

the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.

This a hundred times. Definitely think the linesmen could be given more responsibility to make calls on decisions that happen much closer to them than the ref.
Like in soccer where a foul along the sideline that might be out of the referees line of sight is brought to his attention straight away by a simple waving of a flag.

Like others have said it's a thankless job but there is such a range in capabilities at the very highest level from week to week.
David Gough is miles ahead of his colleagues. A lot of it seems to come from his ability to read a game and know where play is going to develop. He is able to consistently call a defender for off the ball shirt pull just before the pass goes in that direction.

tayto lover · 15-11-2020 11:11pm

Clareman wrote: »

I'm watching the Sunday Game here the Cork Tipp game is on and I'll keeping an eye out for fouls, the amount of pulls, grabs, over carrying, off the ball stuff would make a video ref impossible I'd say.

Watch the Cavan v Down football match.

Cavan_King · 15-11-2020 11:29pm

I find the choice of referees astounding sometimes. For example, for today’s Ulster semi final, they pick a referee from Cavan’s biggest and oldest rivals Monaghan who is reffing his first intercounty game!

Cavan also get Meath referees like Coldrick & Cormac Reilly a lot. It’s safe to say Reilly has never done us as favour in any game. Meath may not be in the same province but they are a bordering county and they’d always been a bit of rivalry between the two counties.

Smacruairi · 15-11-2020 11:47pm

I think players and supporters vastly over estimate the local biases of the referees at the top level. They literally only care about getting the next match, could care less if a guy is from the other county etc. You see a foul, you blow, or you don't see it, you don't. Literally nothing else in your mind in the moment, and you certainly don't risk your career because you want to stick it to a county for a perceived slight 15 years ago.

Smacruairi · 15-11-2020 11:50pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Only need one.
For Senior inter county matches you need the same system as rugby has I.e a video ref. The game wouldn’t be stopped for long at all and even if it was then the players would get and deserve the right decision. It doesn’t ruin the game one bit.

Are you happy with VAR in soccer? I'd argue its ruined many a game for both players and supporters.

tayto lover · 16-11-2020 12:12am

Smacruairi wrote: »

Are you happy with VAR in soccer? I'd argue its ruined many a game for both players and supporters.

I’m happy with the rugby version.

Smacruairi · 16-11-2020 12:13am

tayto lover wrote: »

I’m happy with the rugby version.

Rugby has built in stoppages, diff restarts depending on evidence.

Gaa does not.

tayto lover · 16-11-2020 12:25am

Smacruairi wrote: »

Rugby has built in stoppages, diff restarts depending on evidence.

Gaa does not.

So what are you suggesting?
Is it that everything is fine and there’s no need to do anything?

siblers · 16-11-2020 12:27am

Umpires are fair ****e too. How didn't they spot Madden was out of play when he tackled the Down keeper?

Smacruairi · 16-11-2020 12:30am

tayto lover wrote: »

So what are you suggesting?
Is it that everything is fine and there’s no need to do anything?

I'm saying that if you're looking for perfection in every sport that has an interpretative element, you either go for the hundred percent accuracy route, which will kill the game as everyone will want everything checked all the time, or you accept that just as a player will do a bad pass, sometimes a ref might make a bad decision. You move on, that's life.
If you throw a ball into the square in the last minute if a match, I defy you not to find a push and a shove everywhere.

robbiezero · 16-11-2020 12:36am

Clareman wrote: »

I think every video ref system should be on the managers call, American Football and tennis have great setups that if the manager want to challenge a decision they alert the ref, tell them what they think is the problem and then it's reviewed, if it's upheld they get their challenge back they keep it if they don't they loose it. Problem with GAA is there are so many fouls that there's very rarely a passage of play without a foul somewhere on the pitch

I think something like this would be good on major decisions - red cards, goals, penalties etc. That Cavan penalty should have been a free out and had a massive impact on the result of the game.

tanko · 16-11-2020 1:11am

robbiezero wrote: »

I think something like this would be good on major decisions - red cards, goals, penalties etc. That Cavan penalty should have been a free out and had a massive impact on the result of the game.

Two wrong decisions by the referee in Downs favour also had a massive impact on the result of the game also. The Down goal came from the referee awarding a mark to a Down player who caught a kick out and carried it over the sideline when the ball hadn't passed over the 45 yard line from the kickout. It should have been a sideline kick for Cavan.
The Cavan forward Martin Reilly broke through two tackles while being fouled and had a one on one with the Down goalkeeper from a few yards out. Instead of the referee giving him the advantage he blew straight away for the free denying Cavan the advantage but of course neither of these incidents were shown on the Sunday game tonight.

tayto lover · 16-11-2020 1:42am

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'm saying that if you're looking for perfection in every sport that has an interpretative element, you either go for the hundred percent accuracy route, which will kill the game as everyone will want everything checked all the time, or you accept that just as a player will do a bad pass, sometimes a ref might make a bad decision. You move on, that's life.
If you throw a ball into the square in the last minute if a match, I defy you not to find a push and a shove everywhere.

So you’re suggesting that bad refereeing is just ignored.
Might as well not have rules at all then.

tayto lover · 16-11-2020 1:45am

robbiezero wrote: »

I think something like this would be good on major decisions - red cards, goals, penalties etc. That Cavan penalty should have been a free out and had a massive impact on the result of the game.

What happened before the goal and what led up to the goal was not shown by RTÉ. Strange that they didn’t show it ax it happened beside the linesman and the referee also had a clear view. Maybe neither knew the rule?

Smacruairi · 16-11-2020 1:57am

tayto lover wrote: »

So you’re suggesting that bad refereeing is just ignored.
Might as well not have rules at all then.

That's a bit extreme. If a player misses a peno do you never let him play again? No point in him playing sure.

Refereeing standards.

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