Refereeing standards.

tayto lover

For me this is one of the biggest problems the GAA has and it needs to be addressed.
Since the debacle in the Louth v Meath Leinster Final of 2010 I have been watching the performances of referees and have seen many very poor performances. Teams train hard, travel long distances to train, diet properly and give up their time missing out on many family occasions in an effort to win things for their counties. The players deserve better.

Today I watched the Cavan v Down match and the referee was extremely poor.
He allowed a Mark inside the 45 which should have ended up a lineball to Cavan which ended up a Down goal, allowed a Down forward the advantage to go ahead and score the goal after being fouled. No problem with the advantage but he denied a Cavan forward the same advantage when about to shoot for goal bringing him back for free kick.
It was so bad I thought he had backed Down.

I have seen many more instances of poor refereeing in the last 10 years.

Time the GAA addressed the issue of poor refereeing.

yop

tayto lover wrote: »

For me this is one of the biggest problems the GAA has and it needs to be addressed.
Since the debacle in the Louth v Meath Leinster Final of 2010 I have been watching the performances of referees and have seen many very poor performances. Teams train hard, travel long distances to train, diet properly and give up their time missing out on many family occasions in an effort to win things for their counties. The players deserve better.

Today I watched the Cavan v Down match and the referee was extremely poor.
He allowed a Mark inside the 45 which should have ended up a lineball to Cavan which ended up a Down goal, allowed a Down forward the advantage to go ahead and score the goal after being fouled. No problem with the advantage but he denied a Cavan forward the same advantage when about to shoot for goal bringing him back for free kick.
It was so bad I thought he had backed Down.

I have seen many more instances of poor refereeing in the last 10 years.

Time the GAA addressed the issue of poor refereeing.

The speed of the game has a big impact on how the ref can manage it. These players are at a serious level of fitness.
the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.

washman3

It's a really tough job in fairness and seems to be getting more difficult every year. Whatever about football, imagine refereeing a game of hurling with 2 top sides involved in these conditions in November. The sheer physicality and speed like we saw today between Limerick and Waterford, or the dogfight in Limerick last night with Tipp/Cork. These players are professional athletes in all but name. Ref needs all the help he can get nowadays from his umpires and linesmen and fourth official. Some may be too proud/headstrong to accept that help and may feel undermined.
That game you mention between Louth/Meath some years back will be forever etched in memory as a gigantic cock-up between the ref, 2 umpires and at least 1 linesman.

A classic case of the 'little team' being shafted. Never seems to happen the other way round for some reason....;);)

baconsarnie

tayto lover wrote: »

For me this is one of the biggest problems the GAA has and it needs to be addressed.
Since the debacle in the Louth v Meath Leinster Final of 2010 I have been watching the performances of referees and have seen many very poor performances. Teams train hard, travel long distances to train, diet properly and give up their time missing out on many family occasions in an effort to win things for their counties. The players deserve better.

Today I watched the Cavan v Down match and the referee was extremely poor.
He allowed a Mark inside the 45 which should have ended up a lineball to Cavan which ended up a Down goal, allowed a Down forward the advantage to go ahead and score the goal after being fouled. No problem with the advantage but he denied a Cavan forward the same advantage when about to shoot for goal bringing him back for free kick.
It was so bad I thought he had backed Down.

I have seen many more instances of poor refereeing in the last 10 years.

Time the GAA addressed the issue of poor refereeing.

He was from Monaghan, say no more

Clareman

It's a terrible, thankless job and anyone who thinks that the intercounty ref isn't up to it I would suggest going down to your local club and trying it for yourself, event at underage or junior level it's an extremely difficult job. At intercounty level the game is so fast its impossible for 1 person to keep up with it and I don't think 2 refs would help, the ref being at ground level in the middle of the action is a major problem in my opinion. Personally I'd like to see a ref advisor up in the stand, being high up could keep an eye on everything while allow the ref concentrate on technical fouls.

I would also be looking to take as many decisions out of the refs hands as possible, taking control of the time and score out of their hands could be an easy win. Another major problem is the fact that there are so many rules and a lot of the rules are up to interupation or for the ref to judge the players intent.

tayto lover

yop wrote: »

The speed of the game has a big impact on how the ref can manage it. These players are at a serious level of fitness.
the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.

I agree to a point but it doesn’t alleviate the problem.
Nothing being done about it.

Smacruairi

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree to a point but it doesn’t alleviate the problem.
Nothing being done about it.

What would you have done? I ask because for years ppl moaned about offside in soccer and wanted video tech, and now that it is in (despite massive opposition from referees mind), everyone is saying it ruins the game.

3 simple suggestions not aimed at referees personally, but at the system of refereeing would suffice.

Clareman

It's a game played by humans ref'd by humans, errors are going to happen, I don't think any sport has perfect decision makers, even tennis with technology and 7 refs for 2 players has issues.

In my opinion all the officials are too close to the play, the umpires being at the post being case in point.

Clareman

tayto lover wrote: »

I agree to a point but it doesn’t alleviate the problem.
Nothing being done about it.

The support and training that refs get is brilliant, there's lots being done about it, if you think that nothing is being done about it you should see what was happening about 10 years ago, we're lightyears ahead now. The main problem is that the rules are the same for a Junior B game as All Ireland final so any changes will have to be for both, having hawkeye available in a couple of grounds is making a mockery of it, anything that's decided needs to be for everyone

yop

I've reffed under age and only been a lowly umpire at a few masters games and tbh it happens so fast even at that level it's easy make a mistake.
Never mind at the level and intensity these play at and there's plenty of trickery going on.

We've now gotten 20 different angles and replays to review but they don't.

I'm guilty as anyone but at the end of the day it's a thankless and tough job IMO

Clareman

yop wrote: »

I've reffed under age and only been a lowly umpire at a few masters games and tbh it happens so fast even at that level it's easy make a mistake.
Never mind at the level and intensity these play at and there's plenty of trickery going on.

We've now gotten 20 different angles and replays to review but they don't.

I'm guilty as anyone but at the end of the day it's a thankless and tough job IMO

Yup yop :D:D:D I find when doing points umpire at grounds where you can't get back behind the goal that your either hoping for help from the linesmen or making educated guesses.

yop

Clareman wrote: »

Yup yop :D:D:D I find when doing points umpire at grounds where you can't get back behind the goal that your either hoping for help from the linesmen or making educated guesses.

Stop I had the sun in my eyes and shorts sprints were never my forte. We were playing the dubs so I had to guess a few

tayto lover

Smacruairi wrote: »

What would you have done? I ask because for years ppl moaned about offside in soccer and wanted video tech, and now that it is in (despite massive opposition from referees mind), everyone is saying it ruins the game.

3 simple suggestions not aimed at referees personally, but at the system of refereeing would suffice.

Only need one.
For Senior inter county matches you need the same system as rugby has I.e a video ref. The game wouldn’t be stopped for long at all and even if it was then the players would get and deserve the right decision. It doesn’t ruin the game one bit.

Clareman

yop wrote: »

Stop I had the sun in my eyes and shorts sprints were never my forte. We were playing the dubs so I had to guess a few

I always found when the goalie was shouting wide wide wide that it was a point :pac::pac::pac:

Couple of games I did for a particular goalie he was the best umpire ever, he used to tap the crossbar for every point, go for the puck out straight away for a wide and if it was dodgy the louder he was the more likely it was to have been a point.

Clareman

tayto lover wrote: »

You I kneed one.
For Senior inter county matches you need the same system as rugby has I.e a video ref. The game wouldn’t be stopped for long at all and even if it was then the players would get and deserve the right decision. It doesn’t ruin the game one bit.

I think every video ref system should be on the managers call, American Football and tennis have great setups that if the manager want to challenge a decision they alert the ref, tell them what they think is the problem and then it's reviewed, if it's upheld they get their challenge back they keep it if they don't they loose it. Problem with GAA is there are so many fouls that there's very rarely a passage of play without a foul somewhere on the pitch

Clareman

I'm watching the Sunday Game here the Cork Tipp game is on and I'll keeping an eye out for fouls, the amount of pulls, grabs, over carrying, off the ball stuff would make a video ref impossible I'd say.

Comic Book Guy

yop wrote: »

the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.

This a hundred times. Definitely think the linesmen could be given more responsibility to make calls on decisions that happen much closer to them than the ref.
Like in soccer where a foul along the sideline that might be out of the referees line of sight is brought to his attention straight away by a simple waving of a flag.

Like others have said it's a thankless job but there is such a range in capabilities at the very highest level from week to week.
David Gough is miles ahead of his colleagues. A lot of it seems to come from his ability to read a game and know where play is going to develop. He is able to consistently call a defender for off the ball shirt pull just before the pass goes in that direction.

tayto lover

Clareman wrote: »

I'm watching the Sunday Game here the Cork Tipp game is on and I'll keeping an eye out for fouls, the amount of pulls, grabs, over carrying, off the ball stuff would make a video ref impossible I'd say.

Watch the Cavan v Down football match.

Cavan_King

I find the choice of referees astounding sometimes. For example, for today’s Ulster semi final, they pick a referee from Cavan’s biggest and oldest rivals Monaghan who is reffing his first intercounty game!

Cavan also get Meath referees like Coldrick & Cormac Reilly a lot. It’s safe to say Reilly has never done us as favour in any game. Meath may not be in the same province but they are a bordering county and they’d always been a bit of rivalry between the two counties.

Smacruairi

I think players and supporters vastly over estimate the local biases of the referees at the top level. They literally only care about getting the next match, could care less if a guy is from the other county etc. You see a foul, you blow, or you don't see it, you don't. Literally nothing else in your mind in the moment, and you certainly don't risk your career because you want to stick it to a county for a perceived slight 15 years ago.

Smacruairi

tayto lover wrote: »

Only need one.
For Senior inter county matches you need the same system as rugby has I.e a video ref. The game wouldn’t be stopped for long at all and even if it was then the players would get and deserve the right decision. It doesn’t ruin the game one bit.

Are you happy with VAR in soccer? I'd argue its ruined many a game for both players and supporters.

tayto lover

Smacruairi wrote: »

Are you happy with VAR in soccer? I'd argue its ruined many a game for both players and supporters.

I’m happy with the rugby version.

Smacruairi

tayto lover wrote: »

I’m happy with the rugby version.

Rugby has built in stoppages, diff restarts depending on evidence.

Gaa does not.

tayto lover

Smacruairi wrote: »

Rugby has built in stoppages, diff restarts depending on evidence.

Gaa does not.

So what are you suggesting?
Is it that everything is fine and there’s no need to do anything?

siblers

Umpires are fair ****e too. How didn't they spot Madden was out of play when he tackled the Down keeper?

Smacruairi

tayto lover wrote: »

So what are you suggesting?
Is it that everything is fine and there’s no need to do anything?

I'm saying that if you're looking for perfection in every sport that has an interpretative element, you either go for the hundred percent accuracy route, which will kill the game as everyone will want everything checked all the time, or you accept that just as a player will do a bad pass, sometimes a ref might make a bad decision. You move on, that's life.
If you throw a ball into the square in the last minute if a match, I defy you not to find a push and a shove everywhere.

robbiezero

Clareman wrote: »

I think every video ref system should be on the managers call, American Football and tennis have great setups that if the manager want to challenge a decision they alert the ref, tell them what they think is the problem and then it's reviewed, if it's upheld they get their challenge back they keep it if they don't they loose it. Problem with GAA is there are so many fouls that there's very rarely a passage of play without a foul somewhere on the pitch

I think something like this would be good on major decisions - red cards, goals, penalties etc. That Cavan penalty should have been a free out and had a massive impact on the result of the game.

tanko

robbiezero wrote: »

I think something like this would be good on major decisions - red cards, goals, penalties etc. That Cavan penalty should have been a free out and had a massive impact on the result of the game.

Two wrong decisions by the referee in Downs favour also had a massive impact on the result of the game also. The Down goal came from the referee awarding a mark to a Down player who caught a kick out and carried it over the sideline when the ball hadn't passed over the 45 yard line from the kickout. It should have been a sideline kick for Cavan.
The Cavan forward Martin Reilly broke through two tackles while being fouled and had a one on one with the Down goalkeeper from a few yards out. Instead of the referee giving him the advantage he blew straight away for the free denying Cavan the advantage but of course neither of these incidents were shown on the Sunday game tonight.

tayto lover

Smacruairi wrote: »

I'm saying that if you're looking for perfection in every sport that has an interpretative element, you either go for the hundred percent accuracy route, which will kill the game as everyone will want everything checked all the time, or you accept that just as a player will do a bad pass, sometimes a ref might make a bad decision. You move on, that's life.
If you throw a ball into the square in the last minute if a match, I defy you not to find a push and a shove everywhere.

So you’re suggesting that bad refereeing is just ignored.
Might as well not have rules at all then.

tayto lover

robbiezero wrote: »

I think something like this would be good on major decisions - red cards, goals, penalties etc. That Cavan penalty should have been a free out and had a massive impact on the result of the game.

What happened before the goal and what led up to the goal was not shown by RTÉ. Strange that they didn’t show it ax it happened beside the linesman and the referee also had a clear view. Maybe neither knew the rule?

Smacruairi

tayto lover wrote: »

So you’re suggesting that bad refereeing is just ignored.
Might as well not have rules at all then.

That's a bit extreme. If a player misses a peno do you never let him play again? No point in him playing sure.

Strumms

Clareman wrote: »

I think every video ref system should be on the managers call, American Football and tennis have great setups that if the manager want to challenge a decision they alert the ref, tell them what they think is the problem and then it's reviewed, if it's upheld they get their challenge back they keep it if they don't they loose it. Problem with GAA is there are so many fouls that there's very rarely a passage of play without a foul somewhere on the pitch

Both sports are very stop start in nature, which lends to its use.

GAA, no, the games are fast paced, free flowing, 30 players, so much going on, so physical... it’s a super emotive and competitive game because of the traditions, intensity... you’d have managers using them tactically too, if you have two reviews say left as a manager, five minutes left on the clock, but your lead is down from five points to two, many chancers would be calling for a review for some innocuous nonsense just to take the wind out of the sails of the opposition... clock stopped during the process but so is the momentum of the chasing team... the leaders have all their lads over to the sidelines getting a tactical pep talk, a gee up, a rest, water... while the chasing team loose the momentum they had...

Tennis, rugby, nfl, have dynamics that suit, gaa doesn’t... football, camogie or hurling...

padd b1975

I think the standard has been good this year.

No major controversies and most of the big calls have been correct.

I would be in favour of micing up the refs, it would make his decisions more transparent and hopefully cut down on the noise from the barstool "rules experts" which referees are bound to hear/read about.
Hopefully it would make players think twice before whinging about decisions if they know they are being heard by everyone.

Timekeeping needs to be done independently also to reduce workload and controversy.

Strumms

padd b1975 wrote: »

I think the standard has been good this year.

No major controversies and most of the big calls have been correct.

I would be in favour of micing up the refs, it would make his decisions more transparent and hopefully cut down on the noise from the barstool "rules experts" which referees are bound to hear/read about.
Hopefully it would make players think twice before whinging about decisions if they know they are being heard by everyone.

Timekeeping needs to be done independently also to reduce workload and controversy.

Couldn’t be done, there would be an outcry from players and indeed officials...id be with them....also a bit too much f-bombing and some for 3.30 on a Sunday.

To be honest, it’s getting a bit too ‘reality tv’. I don’t care who says what... just that the right calls are made...

tayto lover

Smacruairi wrote: »

That's a bit extreme. If a player misses a peno do you never let him play again? No point in him playing sure.

That’s an entirely different scenario and nothing to do with referees or rules.
A red herring.
Please stick to the question of bad refereeing.
If what happened in that game yesterday happened in an All-Ireland Final there’d be hell to play. It will happen in time, it happened in a Leinster Football Final and there was uproar on the field after the game yet nothing of note was done. An All-Ireland Final will be a different kettle of fish.

robbiezero

tanko wrote: »

Two wrong decisions by the referee in Downs favour also had a massive impact on the result of the game also. The Down goal came from the referee awarding a mark to a Down player who caught a kick out and carried it over the sideline when the ball hadn't passed over the 45 yard line from the kickout. It should have been a sideline kick for Cavan.
The Cavan forward Martin Reilly broke through two tackles while being fouled and had a one on one with the Down goalkeeper from a few yards out. Instead of the referee giving him the advantage he blew straight away for the free denying Cavan the advantage but of course neither of these incidents were shown on the Sunday game tonight.

Ya, fair enough. I didn't see the game, just the Sunday game highlights.
But I'd still make the point that it would be good to have some sort of video mechanism to challenge major game changing decisions or events
e.g. the Cork goal vs Kerry last weekend if it had been a foul or square ball, it would have been a desperate way to be knocked out of the championship
(It was a perfectly good goal - just a hypothetical situation)

bucketybuck

As long as I have been alive people have been complaining about referees, the OP could have been written any time in the last 20 years.

tayto lover

bucketybuck wrote: »

As long as I have been alive people have been complaining about referees, the OP could have been written any time in the last 20 years.

Indeed. Yet poor officiating is allowed continue unabated.
People say referees are only human, if you keep complaining then nobody will become a referee, the game is very fast, etc etc etc.

I have not the tiniest doubt it’ll be the same in another 20 years.

Why would they try to fix it if everyone accepts and expects it unlike the way other organisations have tried to step up and fix theirs.

Anything will do in the GAA it seems.

crossman47

bucketybuck wrote: »

As long as I have been alive people have been complaining about referees, the OP could have been written any time in the last 20 years.

Its an impossible game to ref. If every foul is blown, the ref will be widely criticised so instead a lot is left go e.g. the outrageous way Aidan O'Shea was treated yesterday. hes a big man so is expected to take all sorts of abuse (and I'm not a Mayo man).

tayto lover

crossman47 wrote: »

Its an impossible game to ref. If every foul is blown, the ref will be widely criticised so instead a lot is left go e.g. the outrageous way Aidan O'Shea was treated yesterday. hes a big man so is expected to take all sorts of abuse (and I'm not a Mayo man).

In the Cavan v Down game the big calls, there were 3, were not dealt with according to the rules by the referee. I’m not a Cavan man.

The Lost Sheep

tayto lover wrote: »

For me this is one of the biggest problems the GAA has and it needs to be addressed.
Since the debacle in the Louth v Meath Leinster Final of 2010 I have been watching the performances of referees and have seen many very poor performances. Teams train hard, travel long distances to train, diet properly and give up their time missing out on many family occasions in an effort to win things for their counties. The players deserve better.

Today I watched the Cavan v Down match and the referee was extremely poor.
He allowed a Mark inside the 45 which should have ended up a lineball to Cavan which ended up a Down goal, allowed a Down forward the advantage to go ahead and score the goal after being fouled. No problem with the advantage but he denied a Cavan forward the same advantage when about to shoot for goal bringing him back for free kick.
It was so bad I thought he had backed Down.

I have seen many more instances of poor refereeing in the last 10 years.

Time the GAA addressed the issue of poor refereeing.

What do you want the GAA to do to address refereeing?
Can you recall many incidents of good refereeing as there nearly always is just posts criticising referees who had poor games.

yop wrote: »

The speed of the game has a big impact on how the ref can manage it. These players are at a serious level of fitness.
the biggest problem is that the ref has 6 other officials who don't seem to assist him.

What do you do about that? Get umpires the ability to call fouls more? Same with linesmen able to do more.

Clareman wrote: »

It's a terrible, thankless job and anyone who thinks that the intercounty ref isn't up to it I would suggest going down to your local club and trying it for yourself, event at underage or junior level it's an extremely difficult job. At intercounty level the game is so fast its impossible for 1 person to keep up with it and I don't think 2 refs would help, the ref being at ground level in the middle of the action is a major problem in my opinion. Personally I'd like to see a ref advisor up in the stand, being high up could keep an eye on everything while allow the ref concentrate on technical fouls.

I would also be looking to take as many decisions out of the refs hands as possible, taking control of the time and score out of their hands could be an easy win. Another major problem is the fact that there are so many rules and a lot of the rules are up to interupation or for the ref to judge the players intent.

Would agree with plenty of that but dont see anything like someone up in the stand being the answer. Have a TMO for the top level but at all levels use umpires and linesmen more. Ref should still be keeping score and time but linesmen, umpires should also be doing it as back up/ensuring its right.
Having many rules being interpreted isnt really an issue as its always going to be case.

Comic Book Guy wrote: »

This a hundred times. Definitely think the linesmen could be given more responsibility to make calls on decisions that happen much closer to them than the ref.
Like in soccer where a foul along the sideline that might be out of the referees line of sight is brought to his attention straight away by a simple waving of a flag.

Like others have said it's a thankless job but there is such a range in capabilities at the very highest level from week to week.
David Gough is miles ahead of his colleagues. A lot of it seems to come from his ability to read a game and know where play is going to develop. He is able to consistently call a defender for off the ball shirt pull just before the pass goes in that direction.

Same in rugby. Linesmen can bring to attention of referee incidents of foul play by putting their flag out. Officials need to use their voice more to prevent fouls before they happen.

Smacruairi wrote: »

Rugby has built in stoppages, diff restarts depending on evidence.

Gaa does not.

GAA does have stoppages that you can use to look at whatever neccesaary.

padd b1975 wrote: »

I think the standard has been good this year.

No major controversies and most of the big calls have been correct.

I would be in favour of micing up the refs, it would make his decisions more transparent and hopefully cut down on the noise from the barstool "rules experts" which referees are bound to hear/read about.
Hopefully it would make players think twice before whinging about decisions if they know they are being heard by everyone.

Timekeeping needs to be done independently also to reduce workload and controversy.

Officials still need to keep time though even if you do have a 5th official keeping it. Miccing refs at the top level has to happen. brings clarity on what their decisions are and may get players to think twice of giving abuse as well

Strumms wrote: »

Couldn’t be done, there would be an outcry from players and indeed officials...id be with them....also a bit too much f-bombing and some for 3.30 on a Sunday.

To be honest, it’s getting a bit too ‘reality tv’. I don’t care who says what... just that the right calls are made...

It could be done. Why would officials give out about it happening?
If it made some players think twice about what they say on pitch at times then thats a good thing. No?

Smacruairi

Just on the giving linesmen and umpire more powers.

1.sometimes there's a reason they are on the sideline and not in the middle..
2. When you're in the middle of the pitch you have a 3d view, when you're on the sideline and behind the goal you have a 2d view. The last thing you want is lads with a far worse view of something offering you an opinion, that's why you don't see guys getting involved from 80yards away.
3. There will always be bad decisions. We accept this in practically every walk of life except refereeing. No one sets out to make a mistake, it happens. Why do players think there's some shadowy agenda? No one wants to make a mistake, you spend hours training, attending seminars, doing ****e matches in **** grounds when you make a mistake at a bigger level etc. Everyone is trying to get better and do their best like? Isn't that the amateur code of the gaa?

The Lost Sheep

Smacruairi wrote: »

Just on the giving linesmen and umpire more powers.

1.sometimes there's a reason they are on the sideline and not in the middle..
2. When you're in the middle of the pitch you have a 3d view, when you're on the sideline and behind the goal you have a 2d view. The last thing you want is lads with a far worse view of something offering you an opinion, that's why you don't see guys getting involved from 80yards away.
3. There will always be bad decisions. We accept this in practically every walk of life except refereeing. No one sets out to make a mistake, it happens. Why do players think there's some shadowy agenda? No one wants to make a mistake, you spend hours training, attending seminars, doing ****e matches in **** grounds when you make a mistake at a bigger level etc. Everyone is trying to get better and do their best like? Isn't that the amateur code of the gaa?

Linesmen are qualified officials as much as the people in the middle and can be expected to be reffing games regularly as well.
Not always will the ref have the best view and the linesmen can assist and help make the best decision.
Of course mistakes will be made/bad decisions happen but thats why you use all the resources available to make the best decision and that has to include making better use of the 6 extra officials on the pitch.

Smacruairi

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Linesmen are qualified officials as much as the people in the middle and can be expected to be reffing games regularly as well.
Not always will the ref have the best view and the linesmen can assist and help make the best decision.
Of course mistakes will be made/bad decisions happen but thats why you use all the resources available to make the best decision and that has to include making better use of the 6 extra officials on the pitch.

Right, to give you an example.

Middle of the park, tackle, ref says no foul. Player breaking away, linesman says "foul foul". Does the ref give it, he was closer and felt he had the better view. What if he gives it and the linesman was wrong?now what? What if that player breaking was through on goal? What if he had a team mate come and support him from defence, but then you go back for a foul and he is now out of position because thr other team now want to take a kick quickly.

My experience was with soccer so I can't comment on the intricacies of GAA but the point im sure carries across most codes. You try to use your colleagues as much as possible, there are zones on the pitch, discrete signals that most fans wouldn't recognise etc, but mistakes will still be made. I would argue that most decisions are right. Sure you have awful ones, but you've awful decisions from players, managers too. Happens. That's life.

The Lost Sheep

Smacruairi wrote: »

Right, to give you an example.

Middle of the park, tackle, ref says no foul. Player breaking away, linesman says "foul foul". Does the ref give it, he was closer and felt he had the better view. What if he gives it and the linesman was wrong?now what? What if that player breaking was through on goal? What if he had a team mate come and support him from defence, but then you go back for a foul and he is now out of position because thr other team now want to take a kick quickly.

My experience was with soccer so I can't comment on the intricacies of GAA but the point im sure carries across most codes.

I ref rugby. Played all the others. Well up to the GAA central council etc to make whatever changed needed.

What would you want to be done then to improve things? Yes there can be mistakes but if there is procedures to follow and linesmen can only make calls in specific circumstances then you do that.

Smacruairi

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I ref rugby. Played all the others. Well up to the GAA central council etc to make whatever changed needed.

What would you want to be done then to improve things? Yes there can be mistakes but if there is procedures to follow and linesmen can only make calls in specific circumstances then you do that.

You keep training, coaching, educating referees, support, encourage (punish if very necessary!). But I think accepting that you will never have a perfect match is key. If you ref rugby then you'll know the situation where you've had to read body language, go on the balance of probabilities, just get a hunch and go with it. Im also sure you've got things wrong too, and some decisions you knew were right despite no one believing you.

I think rugby with its advantage law it gives so much more leeway to the game. If you could answer what you would do in my no win hypothetical for gaa above you might see the challenges.

think harsher retrospective actions for players for cheating, for violent conduct, for internationally circumventing the laws would help a lot. Technology for offsides /hawkeye etc is obviously great. But the more tech comes in, the more it slows down the game. VAR is killing the spirit of the laws of the game.

The Lost Sheep

Smacruairi wrote: »

You keep training, coaching, educating referees, support, encourage (punish if very necessary!). But I think accepting that you will never have a perfect match is key. If you ref rugby then you'll know the situation where you've had to read body language, go on the balance of probabilities, just get a hunch and go with it. Im also sure you've got things wrong too, and some decisions you knew were right despite no one believing you.

I think rugby with its advantage law it gives so much more leeway to the game. If you could answer what you would do in my no win hypothetical for gaa above you might see the challenges.

think harsher retrospective actions for players for cheating, for violent conduct, for internationally circumventing the laws would help a lot. Technology for offsides /hawkeye etc is obviously great. But the more tech comes in, the more it slows down the game. VAR is killing the spirit of the laws of the game.

You over rule the linesmen. Which you can do in rugby.

What training do most referees get? Yes that needs improving at all levels in GAA.
Technology should always be used as available. I will always take having a game a tiny bit slower where the correct decision is made then continue on with no technology and have clear mistakes from players/officials not caught. And a game will never be slowed down by much with technology being used anyway.

Smacruairi

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

You over rule the linesmen. Which you can do in rugby.

What training do most referees get? Yes that needs improving at all levels in GAA.
Technology should always be used as available. I will always take having a game a tiny bit slower where the correct decision is made then continue on with no technology and have clear mistakes from players/officials not caught. And a game will never be slowed down by much with technology being used anyway.

Sometimes the ref is right to over rule, sometimes he is wrong. That's the whole point of my argument about every decision being a committee decision, no it doesn't work like. You have fans here saying "he got it wrong he should have gone over to check", but if he went over to check and the assistant was wrong, the same fans would say "what was he asking for". Literally can't win, and you won't win.

What training do refs get, is that a serious question? You're a rugby referee, have you not had fitness sessions, then local panel sessions, national panel sessions, video analysis, laws of the game tests on a yearly basis at least?

You say tiny bit slower, but yet we have decisions taking 3 minutes or so to be made. How many times can that be done? You could challenge practically every dribble in gaa football for steps sure, no goals would be allowed for one, and I say that as a fan of Dublins kev mc!

Technology works with rugby because its a phased game, attrition, very very few intercepts. Gaa is far more end to end.

The Lost Sheep

Smacruairi wrote: »

Sometimes the ref is right to over rule, sometimes he is wrong. That's the whole point of my argument about every decision being a committee decision, no it doesn't work like. You have fans here saying "he got it wrong he should have gone over to check", but if he went over to check and the assistant was wrong, the same fans would say "what was he asking for". Literally can't win, and you won't win.

What training do refs get, is that a serious question? You're a rugby referee, have you not had fitness sessions, then local panel sessions, national panel sessions, video analysis, laws of the game tests on a yearly basis at least?

You say tiny bit slower, but yet we have decisions taking 3 minutes or so to be made. How many times can that be done? You could channel practically every dribble in gaa football for steps sure, no goals would be allowed for one, and I say that as a fan of Dublins kev mc!

Technology works with rugby because its a phased game, attrition, very very few intercepts. Gaa is far more end to end.

I never have said or implied every decision is a committee meeting or should be.
Im asking what training do GAA refs get on regular basis? Can you tell me?
3 minutes to get a decision right is a million times better than a wrong decision being made in 10 seconds.
We do our own fitness sessions. we have group fitness sessions for those who want it but mainly its on your own. we have occasional tests of laws but there isnt a major laws test. main way of coaching and improving referees is an experienced ref/former ref will watch you and give you feedback on your game with feedback in variety areas of game.
You need to use technology to assist the refs because the game is so end to end. The game is end to end therefore refs will miss plenty and is even more a reason technology should be used to assist the right decisions being made.

Smacruairi

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I never have said or implied every decision is a committee meeting or should be.
Im asking what training do GAA refs get on regular basis? Can you tell me?
3 minutes to get a decision right is a million times better than a wrong decision being made in 10 seconds.
We do our own fitness sessions. we have group fitness sessions for those who want it but mainly its on your own. we have occasional tests of laws but there isnt a major laws test. main way of coaching and improving referees is an experienced ref/former ref will watch you and give you feedback on your game with feedback in variety areas of game.
You need to use technology to assist the refs because the game is so end to end. The game is end to end therefore refs will miss plenty and is even more a reason technology should be used to assist the right decisions being made.

I was at a lecture from David coldrick who said fitness sessions were solo but monthly panel training seminars weekly video analysis sessions, weekend seminars and that was just the stuff that was mandatory. Then his game would be assessed from the stand, assessed after on video and mistakes highlighted and good moves shown. Certain players and their shall we say dark arts inclinations sent to ref panel etc.

So in my example again, tackle midfield, some ppl think foul, some people think not, when do you want technology to be brought in. The game could still be in play for the next 2 mins before the crucial point or goal. Do you then go back and check for that foul?

crossman47

Smacruairi wrote: »

So in my example again, tackle midfield, some ppl think foul, some people think not, when do you want technology to be brought in. The game could still be in play for the next 2 mins before the crucial point or goal. Do you then go back and check for that foul?

In all honesty, the main problem is the tackle. There is a rule but refs leave a lot go. If they blew for every foul, they would whistle all day. Define the tackle more clearly as only playing the ball or a fair shoulder. Fellows are getting punched around the chest and stomach and not getting a free.