Trump vs Biden 2020, Day 64 of the Pennsylvania count (pt 5) Read OP

Carfacemandog · 12-11-2020 12:17PM

Jin luk wrote: »

Australia
Japan
USA
South Korea

These are all major players on the world stage.

Zubeneschamali · 12-11-2020 12:19PM

Jin luk wrote: »

Why is it always dragged back to racism when it's an argument of left and right wing policies?

Can you point us to the policies Trump ran on?

Or the Republican party platform?

No, you can't because they are just a party of power for old white men.

12-11-2020 12:19PM

km991148 wrote: »

I meant that as a generalisation myself, not necessarily in reference to the other poster.. but yes, I think it's important not to make up some bs excuse for him.

Similarly I don't really believe that (all) Trump fans are racist. They certainly don't prioritise racism as something to care about, or they don't care that they vote for a racist. But are they actually racist by extension? I'm not sure.

I typically put Trump fans into one of three categories:

They are ignorant to his racism (majority)
They accept that he is a racist but are OK with it (some)
They are racist themselves (minority)

I would say the first group are not racist by extension. But the second? That's a tougher call.

km991148 · 12-11-2020 12:19PM

Jin luk wrote: »

Australia
Japan
USA
South Korea

These are all major players on the world stage.

And you could easily debate Au and USA with regards to what markers you use to define better and how that was influenced directly by right wing policy. Not to mention 'left wing' policies could have done far better as well.

Too wide a statement tbh

Carfacemandog · 12-11-2020 12:20PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Do you honestly, genuinely believe that when all the court cases are thrown out and the recounts don't change the results that Trump will suddenly say "Ah ok fair enough, thanks for checking - Well done Joe, congratulations"?

If you sit back and give it a moments thought, do you honestly, genuinely believe that when all the court cases are thrown out and recounts don't change teh results that Wrenboy will suddenly say. "Ah ok fair enough, thanks for checking - Well done Joe, congratulations"?

He won't - He'll double-down and claim that it's a deep-state conspiracy and that any GOP affiliated person that comes out and says that the election was all above board is a RINO/Never-Trumper etc. etc.

bocaman · 12-11-2020 12:23PM

This refusal to accept a Biden victory is all about keeping the attorneys from the door. As soon as Donald Trump becomes a private citizen people will be knocking on his door. 4 more years in the White House and like any good thief he's home free. The principal of democracy and the democratic will of the people is only secondary.

Movementarian · 12-11-2020 12:28PM

Jin luk wrote: »

Australia
Japan
USA
South Korea

These are all major players on the world stage.

The USA alone:

1. No federally defined working week in terms of hours leading to mass exploitation of workforce.
2. No federally defined paid annual leave entitlement or maternity/paternity leave.
3. No federally defined minimum wage, nor in many of the states. Only in the 2020 election process was a $15 minimum wage introduced in Florida.
4. No public healthcare system

Major player on the world stage yes, **** place to work if you are not well off. Think I am happy enough in the predominantly centre-left leaning Europe thanks.

GeorgeBailey · 12-11-2020 12:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I typically put Trump fans into one of three categories:
They are ignorant to his racism (majority)

They accept that he is a racist but are OK with it (some)

They are racist themselves (minority)

I would say the first group are not racist by extension. But the second? That's a tougher call.

There's also a significant group of people who really, really don't like Trump's personality but appreciate the things he has achieved for conservatism in his term, e.g. supreme court.

cnocbui · 12-11-2020 12:41PM

Jin luk wrote: »

Australia
Japan
USA
South Korea

These are all major players on the world stage.

I'm an Australian and my experience has been the country has always been a far better place and done better when it has had left wing governments, the Hawk and Keating governments in the 80's in particular. It was the left wing government of Kevin Rudd which used helicopter money to stave off the GFC, and it worked. Left wing governements gave Australia one of the absolute best health care systems in the world, and one of the best superannuation systems of compulsory retirement savings. The right wing government of Howard introduced a GST (VAT) and allowed foregn companies to gain control and almost all the benefit from Australia's mineral resources.

A left wing government introduced free tertiary eduction and it changed the country. Then a right wing government abolished it and copied the disasterous American model of education as a business.

The right wing governments powered by neo-con policies, sold off state assets to the wealth classes leading to the country now having some of the most expensive electricity in the world. I really could go on and on about the financial evils perpetrated by Australian right wing governments.

New Zealand has a left wing government lead by Jacinda Ardern, one of the most admired world leaders today.

The UK only has the NHS because of a left wing government. How's it's current right wing government doing? Highest number of covid deaths in Europe, Brexit and dire financial consequences predicted by the Bank of England.

12-11-2020 12:42PM

GeorgeBailey wrote: »

There's also a significant group of people who really, really don't like Trump's personality but appreciate the things he has achieved for conservatism in his term, e.g. supreme court.

They would be in category 1 or 2, depending on whether they consider him racist or not.

cnocbui · 12-11-2020 12:46PM

GeorgeBailey wrote: »

There's also a significant group of people who really, really don't like Trump's personality but appreciate the things he has achieved for conservatism in his term, e.g. supreme court.

Rigging the judicial system is in your eyes an admirable achievement? It's a prime example of the cancerous right wing nonsense that is the root cause of the corrosive divisiveness in the US.

12-11-2020 12:47PM

Carfacemandog wrote: »

If you sit back and give it a moments thought, do you honestly, genuinely believe that when all the court cases are thrown out and recounts don't change teh results that Wrenboy will suddenly say. "Ah ok fair enough, thanks for checking - Well done Joe, congratulations"?

He won't - He'll double-down and claim that it's a deep-state conspiracy and that any GOP affiliated person that comes out and says that the election was all above board is a RINO/Never-Trumper etc. etc.

Once the EC process is concluded and he has to leave, my prediction is that he will give an absolutely poisonous speech, winding up his base and coming as close to inciting violence as he dare.

And then for the next presidential term, he will continue to hold rallies, completely undermining Biden, giving continuous airtime to QAnon and other conspiracy groups, adding to the volume of fake news, and keeping the GOP beholden to him and his policies for fear of alienating his supporters. He is the most dangerous man in the world at the moment in my opinion

nolivesmatter · 12-11-2020 12:49PM

Polar101 wrote: »

This talk of civil war or a military coup makes no sense and greatly overexaggerates the importance of Donald Trump. He's just a guy who lost an election and is upset about it. 250 million Americans didn't vote for him. A lot of Americans have owned guns before, but they haven't had civil wars in over 150 years. Going to need a bit more to start a new one, than some nonsensical accusations about election fraud.

That's a weird way to describe it seeing about 180 million didn't vote at all. You could literally say the same thing about Biden.

But I agree that the notion of a civil war because of this is silly. The Democrats just need to wait it out for a few weeks until everything is certified.

WrenBoy · 12-11-2020 12:53PM

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Do you honestly, genuinely believe that when all the court cases are thrown out and the recounts don't change the results that Trump will suddenly say "Ah ok fair enough, thanks for checking - Well done Joe, congratulations"?

He won't - He'll double-down and claim that it's a deep-state conspiracy and that any GOP affiliated person that comes out and says that the election was all above board is a RINO/Never-Trumper etc. etc. - I mean he's already doing that and that's before they've finished.

For those that actually believe that there was a coordinated effort to "steal" the election , there is no assuaging , there is no explaining. They are lost in the morass of conspiracy theories and lies.

I don't care what he says, its about making the effort to assuage the fears of voters who believe a democratic election has been corrupted to some degree or other. By telling them to shut up and that they are stupid/racist/etc (not you specifically) you only drive further division increasing their distrust and even legitimising it to a degree. With a transparent investigation you at least will show you care about voters concerns and about maintaining fairness, most of them may then believe elections can be trusted. I believe its an important thing to do, others disagree thats on them.

On your second point, if your being honest that is just your own opinion. Some would certainly feel that way as I said before all major events have these people spring up 9/11, JFK, Elvis, etc . The majority are people who have had their trust in the institutions eroded over the last few years and so are more sceptical than ever. They now have doubts about this election, I repeat that ignoring them will lead to more division and a bad result down the road.

Non solum non ambulabit · 12-11-2020 12:53PM

Jin luk wrote: »

Australia
Japan
USA
South Korea

These are all major players on the world stage.

Australia, Japan and South Korea would be more left wing than the Democrats. Significantly so.

Left wing in the US means taxing rich and nationalised healthcare.

km991148 · 12-11-2020 12:53PM

cnocbui wrote: »

I'm an Australian and my experience has been the country has always been a far better place and done better when it has had left wing governments, the Hawk and Keating governments in the 80's in particular. It was the left wing government of Kevin Rudd which used helicopter money to stave off the GFC, and it worked. Left wing governements gave Australia one of the absolute best health care systems in the world, and one of the best superannuation systems of compulsory retirement savings. The right wing government of Howard introduced a GST (VAT) and allowed foregn companies to gain control and almost all the benefit from Australia's mineral resources.

A left wing government introduced free tertiary eduction and it changed the country. Then a right wing government abolished it and copied the disasterous American model of education as a business.

The right wing governments powered by neo-con policies, sold off state assets to the wealth classes leading to the country now having some of the most expensive electricity in the world. I really could go on and on about the financial evils perpetrated by Australian right wing governments.

New Zealand has a left wing government lead by Jacinda Ardern, one of the most admired world leaders today.

The UK only has the NHS because of a left wing government. How's it's current right wing government doing? Highest number of covid deaths in Europe, Brexit and dire financial consequences predicted by the Bank of England.

And this is what p!sses me off tbh - there are clear benefits for all (generally) under a left wing government, but these days we are all too keep to group together on things that don't actually impact the day to day (or don't impact as much as made out by some).

I don't want to enumerate a list as its going to drag the thread away from Trump vs Biden..

12-11-2020 01:00PM

WrenBoy wrote: »

Forget Trump, its the voters you need to reassure, the people who vote, all of them need to know that elections are fair and above board. Even the ones who don't agree with you.

In fairness, he's responsible for the creation of any uncertainty amongst voters. As a result of baseless claims.

jmayo · 12-11-2020 01:08PM

briany wrote: »

He's in illustrious company in terms of celebrities who rabidly support Trump. Kirstie Alley and Randy Quaid are also fully paid-up MAGA-hat-wearing conspiracy nuts.

Oh, Gary Busey's a fan as well.

Don't forget that good old boy from Texas McConaughey who is also Trump fan.

Randle P. McMurphy wrote: »

He could be getting ready for his Reichstag moment. By enabling him the Republicans are in danger of sleepwalking themselves in to the same mess the Germans got in to. Some may say I'm being over dramatic, but any student of history can see the parallels with his political career to date and a certain politician in 1930's Germany.

Not any way comparable.

rossie1977 wrote: »

He has ramped up nationalism to a dangerous level.
Shown distain for human rights especially asylum seekers
Created a ton of enemies which to blame societies ills on.
Increased the us militaries power
Has tried to control the media
Obsessed with national security

Ehh except when it comes to Russia.
Who as a matter of fact has been an enemy and competing world power of the US for the last 70 odd years.

rossie1977 wrote: »

When people think of fascism they think of Hitler or Mussolini but fascists in 2020 have a different coat of paint. Russia, Israel, Hungary, Poland are all fascist states right now.

That is stretching the term fascism and of course it was has happened over the last decade or so.

Fuzzyduzzy wrote: »

The warhogs in the establishment (democrats /republicans) must be thrilled about this band getting back together. I'm not talking about one party here, I'm on about the US invading other countries under the guise of being the police force of the world and profiting from it.

Undeniably Trump has his flaws but a lot of people who hate him so much and voted against him rather than voting FOR Harris/Biden may look back fondly at 4 years without thousands of US troops losing their lives at the expense of millions of civilians in the Middle East or elsewhere.

So only Democrats started wars and start the US interfering in foreign countries.
Jaysus never realised that. :rolleyes:

Would you rather the US of Trump where he is your ally one day and the next he runs away and drops you in the shyte?
Or where he dumps you in the shyte because his new buddy Putin tells him to ?

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

weirdly the guy himself doesn't even claim to be an MIT Professor. DrunkMonkey just made that up.

Trump supporter making things up ?
Check.

Boggles · 12-11-2020 01:14PM

jmayo wrote: »

Don't forget that good old boy from Texas McConaughey who is also Trump fan.

No one knows what party he supports, it's assumed Republican because he is from Texas, but he has never openly give his outright support for Trump or Biden.

hometruths · 12-11-2020 01:16PM

wes wrote: »

It has been long established that Trump is racist. There is literally years of evidences of the mans racism, and we are talking about stuff from long before his Presidency. Here is just one example:

Trump Will Not Apologize for Calling for Death Penalty Over Central Park Five

Its amazing the people will claim Trump is not a racist with a straight face.

How is that evidence of racism? Genuine question, I don't see the racism, can you clarify?

hynesie08 · 12-11-2020 01:22PM

schmittel wrote: »

How is that evidence of racism? Genuine question, I don't see the racism, can you clarify?

Ho many white men accused of assault did he take out a full page ad in the new york times calling for their death??

jmayo · 12-11-2020 01:30PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Can you point us to the policies Trump ran on?

Or the Republican party platform?

No, you can't because they are just a party of power for old white men.

This is the problem with a lot of what is viewed as the left these days and a fair few who are now driving a wing of the Democrats these days.

Do you view Republicans or a lot of others of the opposing viewpoint as just old white guys.

If it was just old white guys then Trump would get nowhere near the white house.
Just look at his Latino vote or fact that women vote for him.
And in Red states all age groups vote for him.

Yes the ones pulling the strings in the background of the Republican party are definitely old rich white guys, but if you look closely you will find a similar group behind the Democrats.

BTW Biden is an old relatively rich white guy.

Most Western countries and the US included won't survive without those old white guys, even if you despise them.

Let some of the young and indeed loons on the modern left in charge and you end up with the place tearing itself apart.
And that is exactly why Jeremy Corbyn was unelectable even when up against an eejit like Johnson.

Not that America isn't tearing itself apart with the loons on the right.

The sooner we get back to the centre the better.

bocaman wrote: »

This refusal to accept a Biden victory is all about keeping the attorneys from the door. As soon as Donald Trump becomes a private citizen people will be knocking on his door. 4 more years in the White House and like any good thief he's home free. The principal of democracy and the democratic will of the people is only secondary.

Not just himself, but the kids are in the firing line as well.

Non solum non ambulabit wrote: »

Australia, Japan and South Korea would be more left wing than the Democrats. Significantly so.

Left wing in the US means taxing rich and nationalised healthcare.

Left in US used to be that.
Although their left has always been right to most of the rest of the world.

Around the world the left used to be about a fair deal for workers, a fair deal for the ones at the bottom, equality for the sexes, but the term has been hijacked by all sorts more intent on fighting battles over identities, unfethered immigration, and imaginary inequalities than whether people have a decent wage, with access to decent healthcare and decent education.

hometruths · 12-11-2020 01:31PM

hynesie08 wrote: »

Ho many white men accused of assault did he take out a full page ad in the new york times calling for their death??

The fact that he did not take out other ads against white suspects is hardly evidence that he is calling for the death penalty because of their skin colour rather than because of their alleged crimes.

Billy Mays · 12-11-2020 01:34PM

schmittel wrote: »

The fact that he did not take out other ads against white suspects is hardly evidence that he is calling for the death penalty because of their skin colour rather than because of their alleged crimes.

Is telling black or brown politicians who were born in America to go back to where they came from racist enough for you?

Zubeneschamali · 12-11-2020 01:38PM

jmayo wrote: »

This is the problem with a lot of what is viewed as the left these days and a fair few who are now driving a wing of the Democrats these days.

If I'm wrong, you can surely point to the policy documents.

But there aren't any, its just an identity movement, and the identity is very pale.

57% of white voters voted Trump, this time, vs only 54% in 2016.

joe40 · 12-11-2020 01:39PM

Polar101 wrote: »

This talk of civil war or a military coup makes no sense and greatly overexaggerates the importance of Donald Trump. He's just a guy who lost an election and is upset about it. 250 million Americans didn't vote for him. A lot of Americans have owned guns before, but they haven't had civil wars in over 150 years. Going to need a bit more to start a new one, than some nonsensical accusations about election fraud.

I don't think there will be an actual civil war but all Trump's rhetoric about a stolen election and fraud on an epic scale could inspire some gun nut to go on a mass shooting spree.
Trump's nonsense is entertaining to a point, but then you realise a Timothy Mcveigh type could cause terrible damage as a result of Trump refusing to accept the result.

hynesie08 · 12-11-2020 01:40PM

schmittel wrote: »

The fact that he did not take out other ads against white suspects is hardly evidence that he is calling for the death penalty because of their skin colour rather than because of their alleged crimes.

There was also the civil suit from the 70s that he's never denied.....

https://www.npr.org/2016/09/29/495955920/donald-trump-plagued-by-decades-old-housing-discrimination-case?t=1605184647852

hometruths · 12-11-2020 01:40PM

Billy Mays wrote: »

Is telling black or brown politicians who were born in America to go back to where they came from racist enough for you?

That is pretty racist, I can see that. My problem was I could not see the evidence for racism in the NYT article linked, hence my question.

Leroy42 · 12-11-2020 01:45PM

WrenBoy wrote: »

I don't care what he says, its about making the effort to assuage the fears of voters who believe a democratic election has been corrupted to some degree or other. By telling them to shut up and that they are stupid/racist/etc (not you specifically) you only drive further division increasing their distrust and even legitimising it to a degree. With a transparent investigation you at least will show you care about voters concerns and about maintaining fairness, most of them may then believe elections can be trusted. I believe its an important thing to do, others disagree thats on them.

Of course there should be an investigation if there is enough evidence that it warrants it. But Trump being angry at the result, or that joe overheard a guy in a shop say something about another person that saw a friend on facebook etc is not grounds.

They have plenty of systems in place to ensure the security of the process. They undertake checks during the count, their our observers to watch over them, the computer systems are verified, sample ballot are reviewed etc.

You seem to think that nothing at all is in place and that an investigation is needed as there is no evidence that it works. But the vast majority of evidence says it works. There has been no evidence of who carried out the fraud, under what conditions, who was involved, who paid for it. Nothing.

The weight of evidence lies with those seeking to claim something is amiss.

Trump basically wants to start a fishing expedition in the hope that something, anything might turn up and they can work from there.

Trump openly stated that he wouldn't accept the results if he lost, yet his 72m+ voters didn't care. What makes you think that any reporting or court case will assuage them from the notion that the election was fair?

Do they have to lose every case? Or just most of them? Does every state get recounted r just some of them? Do senate and house votes get recounted or just some of them?

The problem really lies with the fact that Trump isn't actually claiming voter fraud. He is claiming voter fraud only in those states that he thinks he could possibly win. And no one has been able to answer why, if the Dems and the media have undertaken such a fraud, why they wouldn't also include Senate and House races? Or why not stick closer to the polls?

Quin_Dub · 12-11-2020 01:52PM

I remain unconvinced that Trump is a racist in the typical definition of the term.

He is absolutely not a "White Supremacist" - They are people that talk about "White Genocide" and "Blood purity" and other similar rhetoric , that is not Trump.

Trump doesn't like nor understand people that are "different" to him , simple as that. It's not "racism" , it's ignorance and narcissism.

Rich, Successful, High Profile Black/Latino/LGBTQ person? No problem , he can identify with them.

He doesn't know or understand them and can't be arsed to try to, so he just doesn't like them as a result.

Driven by his ignorance and narcissism he also resorts to base generalisations and tired old tropes - "Blacks are lazy" , "Jews are good with Money" etc. etc.

The other issue with Trump is that as long as you "like him" , he likes you and he cannot tell a "fan" that they are wrong or that their opinions are vile etc.

Hence you get the "Well I hear that they like me, which I like" response when asked about QAnon and so on.

Racism is an ideology - Trump doesn't have those , he only thinks about his immediate personal gratification.

Bottom line , he's lazy and ignorant and just couldn't care less about people that aren't like himself or that don't tell him he's awesome.

Stephen Miller is absolutely categorically a racist White Supremacist and because he blows smoke up Trump and all Trump cares about are the "likes" , Miller gets to do the awful stuff he does.

Trump vs Biden 2020, Day 64 of the Pennsylvania count (pt 5) Read OP

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