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Pubs when/will they re-open - the Megathread

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  • #1652
    vojiwox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭vojiwox


    FrStone wrote: »
    I hope people do remember and take time to think about it. Even the slowest of people will realise that closing pubs for long periods of time will not stop socialising. It will just mean people socialise in unregulated settings.

    My different circles don't do house parties. So it's definitely working for some of the population. I can attest to that. And the cases are going in the right direction. Happy days.


  • #1653
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    vojiwox wrote: »
    Well fair enough, other pubs ruined it for your pub then. And that I do have sympathy for.

    my local where ive been a regular 20 plus years, a long standing Dublin pub will probably go out of business for good if they cant open in December, the owner is on his knees financially, more job losses and hardship for people, and tragicaly this wont be the only one either, and all because NPHET have a severe dislike of any public houses.


  • #1654
    vojiwox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭vojiwox


    I see sheep wrote: »
    If the pubs open other things will be open too so you'll never be able to tell.

    But from the last time they were open there was no major outbreak linked to pubs afaik.

    If they told me that next Monday only pubs were opening. I'd back cases going up.


  • #1655
    ginoginelli
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭ginoginelli


    SB71 wrote: »
    When asked a few months back by the vinters association to produce evidence that pubs were the cause of a spike in cases deputy chief medical officer, Holohans lackey Ronan Glynn actually laughed and said that they should google "covid" and "pubs" and this will give you your answer, people were flabbergasted at this response, i couldnt believe someone in a position like this could possibly come out with an answer like that.

    So here we have a supposed high ranking medical professional actually asking people to use google , instead of actually producing evidence to show that pubs are the cause of spike in cases, and they expect people to take them seriously and do as they say.

    I dont recall that incident but I can see something like that being said out of pure exasperation. It is so painfully obvious at this stage how unsafe pubs are. There is a plethora of evidence now on why they are high risk. It was spelled out to us internationally back at the beginning in march which setting this virus thrives in - Indoors, without mask, over a prolonged period, with shoddy ventilation, are ideal settings for this virus to transmit. Now add in alcohol, lower peoples inhibitions, and you're just making a bad situation worse.

    I reiterate that this has been clear to anybody back in march when peer reviewed journals were published on how this virus spreads, and it has only been cemented further with stronger studies and evidence since.

    Admittedly, it was most unhelpful when the public were lied to in August when the government bowed to the vintners pressure and reopened the pubs, but the resulting spikes that followed showed what a catastrophic mistake it was.

    When people bring up direct evidence (as if it was even needed at this stage since we know how the virus transmits) there are direct cases linked to pubs here, but due to our shoddy contact tracing system (not fit for purpose as it only goes back 2 days!) most of them are missed. However if you 'google it' there are hundreds of internationally documented cases online directly linked to hospitality.

    Yes, schools and workplace are unsafe too, but these can at least be considered essential to keep the country going. The government have weighted it up and accepted some collateral damage in these area. Pubs are not essential.

    People need to move on from the issue at this stage, talking about not being able to go for their few pints at christmas, and blaming it on 'the devil hoolahan' - its just embarrassing. These dummies need to grow up. We're in the middle of a global pandemic, there are much bigger things at play here, - like protecting our nursing homes, and hospitals etc.

    The next three months are going to be rough, let's just get through them without people getting sick and dying unnecessarly. In the meantime, we can support the pubs and all other business who need it. Come April/may we will have the better weather, and very likely a vaccine, and we can start enjoying our privileges again. Until then, people just need to sit tight, follow the restrictions guidelines, and stay out of the pub. It's really not that much to ask.


  • #1656
    vojiwox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭vojiwox


    SB71 wrote: »
    my local where ive been a regular 20 plus years, a long standing Dublin pub will probably go out of business for good if they cant open in December, the owner is on his knees financially, more job losses and hardship for people, and tragicaly trhis wont be the only one either, and all because NPHET have a severe dislike of any public houses.

    I think you're wrong about NPHET. We will have to agree to disagree I feel.

    I have sympathy for your local, I honestly do. I'm worried about my locals too. And I know lads personally who run a Dublin pub too. They agree though that it's not safe to open their pub and it's killing them.

    But unfortunately being indoors with people from many different households for prolonged times causes this virus to spread through our communities.


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  • #1657
    Russman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Russman


    SB71 wrote: »
    my local where ive been a regular 20 plus years, a long standing Dublin pub will probably go out of business for good if they cant open in December, the owner is on his knees financially, more job losses and hardship for people, and tragicaly this wont be the only one either, and all because NPHET have a severe dislike of any public houses.

    No, all because NPHET want people to limit their interactions and reduce spread of a virus. They can't close every single outlet where people are likely to come into contact, but they can close the obvious ones, and pubs drew the short straw. It was essentially pubs or schools, schools won.


  • #1658
    I see sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭I see sheep


    vojiwox wrote: »
    If they told me that next Monday only pubs were opening. I'd back cases going up.

    If opening pubs & hotels over Xmas (which will save many many businesses from going out of existence) means a small rise in cases then that's no problem for me.

    I think it will probably lead to a small rise in cases among young people but no deaths.

    Vulnerable people should obviously stay safe but that's the same as now with shops etc.

    We can't just have endless lockdown.

    "a terrible war imposed by the provisional IRA"

    Our West Brit Taoiseach



  • #1659
    Russman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Russman


    I see sheep wrote: »
    If opening pubs & hotels over Xmas (which will save many many businesses from going out of existence) means a small rise in cases then that's no problem for me.

    I think it will probably lead to a small rise in cases among young people but no deaths.

    Vulnerable people should obviously stay safe but that's the same as now with shops etc.

    We can't just have endless lockdown.

    You could be right with that, but will these young people stop visiting their relatives over Christmas if they've been to pubs ?


  • #1660
    vojiwox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭vojiwox


    I see sheep wrote: »
    If opening pubs & hotels over Xmas (which will save many many businesses from going out of existence) means a small rise in cases then that's no problem for me.

    I think it will probably lead to a small rise in cases among young people but no deaths.

    Vulnerable people should obviously stay safe but that's the same as now with shops etc.

    We can't just have endless lockdown.

    You could be right, but also you could be wrong and people will die because some of us went for pints, which sounds awful ha!

    - What did your Granny die of?
    - Well.. TOnY hOLAhan annoyed me sooooo much cause he hates pubs so I went to a house party cause life must go on!!!!

    :pac:


  • #1661
    amadangomor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,144 ✭✭✭amadangomor


    opinionated3 wrote: »
    Saying " it's pretty obvious" is not definitive evidence. What's the actual evidence that they cause spikes in this country?

    Great bit of head in sand thinking here.

    This virus spreads easily when people are in enclosed and crowded places ffs. Plenty of evidence of that.

    Pubs are enclosed places an with drink taken people won't socially distance.


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  • #1662
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    I see sheep wrote: »
    If opening pubs & hotels over Xmas (which will save many many businesses from going out of existence) means a small rise in cases then that's no problem for me.

    I think it will probably lead to a small rise in cases among young people but no deaths.

    Vulnerable people should obviously stay safe but that's the same as now with shops etc.

    We can't just have endless lockdown.

    Exactly, and this will save many business from closing for good, i know if my local pub was to open in December it might just survive not being closed for good, especially now theres a vaccine being rolled out before the end of this year, those most at risk after getting this vaccine will be immune to the virus,the majority of other people of they did catch it would make a full recovery and by next year the vaccine would be rolled out to most of the population, there can be no justification whatsover for keeping these draconian restrictions into December, this country needs to go to level 2 to save business and jobs.


  • #1663
    opinionated3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    vojiwox wrote: »
    This is nonsense though. More lies.

    Tony Holohan does not run the country, and that's a fact ;)

    He also recommended keeping golf courses closed. No major outbreaks there either. But the government went along with again. Pure stupidity.


  • #1664
    vojiwox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭vojiwox


    opinionated3 wrote: »
    He also recommended keeping golf courses closed. No major outbreaks there either. But the government went along with again. Pure stupidity.

    He will make recommendations regarding health alright!

    I hear he HATES golf too, even more than pints :pac:


  • #1665
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,422 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    If pubs open at the start of December then everyone needs to remember that when they can't visit their families at Christmas.
    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    Because the pubs aren't socially distanced. Everyone was on here doing the big fella glorifying the fact that they were operating as normal back when they did open. Few empty pizza boxes or fake chipper menus - we're all fooling the system sticking it to the government like right lads altogether.

    If they operated properly they'd still be open. Everyone just wants to blame everything else while taking zero responsibility on themselves.
    ReginaldSmythV wrote: »
    They're the people making the decisions so you may take their word as your gospel whether you like it or not. You can't go into a closed pub, tough titty.

    More greatest hits as I find them. You have it in for pubs and happily acquiesce to daddy government, fine. What isn't fine is a publican banking on the month of December to break even, which generally is the most lucrative month of the year. If the pubs don't open for Christmas, many of them already deep in debt won't reappear in 2021.

    Another thing, this false notion that pubs aren't regulated needs to be nipped in the bud. As others have asserted here, it is in the best interests of the proprietor and his customers to adhere to social distancing. My firsthand experience in the local was that of a tightly run ship, anyone not sporting a mask or seated two metres apart was asked to leave almost immediately. Any self-respecting publican willing to openly flout the law and be shut down? Not on your nelly. And how by comparison can house parties be policed, hardly is the answer.

    Finally, it sticks in the craw that a handful of regulars in the local is construed as far riskier than hundreds of children running around the yard or hundreds of factory workers assembling in the canteen. Have more outbreaks occurred in schools or in pubs? Schools, by a wide margin. Don't mention that to Tony or he'll reach for the wooden spoon. Pubs have been mercilessly targeted from the get to by people who cannot comprehend that the drunken touchy feely waster is a lame stereotype that has little basis in reality. We're not going to invade each other's space, a quiet jar of an odd occasion is the height of it. Not much to ask, and the benefits to the local economy are significant in actually rescuing a small business that has roots for generations. If you fail to grasp this, I have only pity for you.


  • #1666
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    Russman wrote: »
    No, all because NPHET want people to limit their interactions and reduce spread of a virus. They can't close every single outlet where people are likely to come into contact, but they can close the obvious ones, and pubs drew the short straw. It was essentially pubs or schools, schools won.

    more bile without producing a shred of evidence, Irish pubs have been shut longer than anywhere else in Europe without any evidence to show they are the cause of spikes.


  • #1667
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    vojiwox wrote: »
    He will make recommendations regarding health alright!

    I hear he HATES golf too, even more than pints :pac:

    now you mention it there's fcuk all justifaction for closing golf courses either, this was probably only done because of golfgate:rolleyes:


  • #1668
    vojiwox
    Closed Accounts Posts: 416 ✭✭vojiwox


    SB71 wrote: »
    now you mention it there's fcuk all justifaction for closing golf courses either, this was probably only done because of golfgate:rolleyes:

    Maybe NPHET have it in for golf?


  • #1669
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    vojiwox wrote: »
    Maybe NPHET have it in for golf?

    where is the justification for closing golf courses, i wouldnt consider myself a golfer as such but how many cases have been attributed to actual golf courses, id hazard a guess and say none.

    You can still go a tennis club and play tennis, wheres the logic in this?


  • #1670
    Russman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Russman


    SB71 wrote: »
    more bile without producing a shred of evidence, Irish pubs have been shut longer than anywhere else in Europe without any evidence to show they are the cause of spikes.

    Thanks for that.

    What do you want evidence of ? That people congregate in pubs ? That the virus spreads when people are in close contact ? I never mentioned anything about spikes. The point is NPHET want us to reduce our contacts as much as possible. I'm sure they know full well we can't do that 100% but if pubs account for XX percentage of contacts, then that's a percentage of risk that can be reduced. Low hanging fruit if you will.


  • #1671
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    You can go to Tesco and buy groceries and gargle...BUT the clothing section is cordened off and the brave garda paying visits to supermarkets checking to see if this is being adhered to, i suppose this makes sense to NPHET as well:rolleyes:


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  • #1672
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    Russman wrote: »
    Thanks for that.

    What do you want evidence of ? That people congregate in pubs ? That the virus spreads when people are in close contact ? I never mentioned anything about spikes. The point is NPHET want us to reduce our contacts as much as possible. I'm sure they know full well we can't do that 100% but if pubs account for XX percentage of contacts, then that's a percentage of risk that can be reduced. Low hanging fruit if you will.

    i want you to produce evidence that shows that pubs were the cause of any spikes in cases, the vast majority of pubs are safe and controlled environments, reduce your contacts eh sure theres house partys galore happening, you really think people are going to sit in every single night for months on end losing the will to live,it doesnt happen, keeping pubs closed leads to an increase in house partys where there isny any social distancing.


  • #1673
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    Another thing, construction sites, they were initially closed for a period of time, then they suddendly backtracked as they have a few times now, and decided in their wisdom that construction sites was an "essential service" and then you had outbreaks in various building sites, and of course if you cast your mind back a few months you had a plane load of Bulgarian fruit pickers flown into Ireland by Keelings to pick strawberries,and some people tried to suggest this was too an "essential service" i suppose it suits whatever narrative NPHET decide on.:rolleyes:


  • #1674
    opinionated3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,190 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    amadangomor wrote: »
    Great bit of head in sand thinking here.

    This virus spreads easily when people are in enclosed and crowded places ffs. Plenty of evidence of that.

    Pubs are enclosed places an with drink taken people won't socially distance.
    Why isn't the virus spreading via the canteen at my factory where I work then? It's enclosed. Numbers of people walking around from the tea area to food service etc and this is five days a week?


  • #1675
    Russman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Russman


    SB71 wrote: »
    i want you to produce evidence that shows that pubs were the cause of any spikes in cases, the vast majority of pubs are safe and controlled environments, reduce your contacts eh sure theres house partys galore happening, you really think people are going to sit in every single night for months on end losing the will to live,it doesnt happen, keeping pubs closed leads to an increase in house partys where there isny any social distancing.

    Why has almost every government in Europe closed or restricted pubs/cafes/restaurants then ?
    Surely you don't need a survey or study to realise people gathering in close proximity helps the disease spread ? Or that alcohol reduces people's inhibitions and tendency to follow rules ?

    I could equally ask for evidence that pubs are safe and controlled environments because I don't believe that for a second tbh.

    I don't deny what you say about house parties. Maybe this whole episode highlights our relationship with alcohol and we don't like what we see.

    We're all struggling with the changes to our way of life, but that's the hand we've been dealt this year. Not liking it won't change it. I can live with pubs being closed and other restrictions for a couple more months if it helps us avoid scenes like we see in Belgium, Italy etc.


  • #1676
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    Russman wrote: »
    Why has almost every government in Europe closed or restricted pubs/cafes/restaurants then ?
    Surely you don't need a survey or study to realise people gathering in close proximity helps the disease spread ? Or that alcohol reduces people's inhibitions and tendency to follow rules ?

    I could equally ask for evidence that pubs are safe and controlled environments because I don't believe that for a second tbh.

    I don't deny what you say about house parties. Maybe this whole episode highlights our relationship with alcohol and we don't like what we see.

    We're all struggling with the changes to our way of life, but that's the hand we've been dealt this year. Not liking it won't change it. I can live with pubs being closed and other restrictions for a couple more months if it helps us avoid scenes like we see in Belgium, Italy etc.



    Not every country has closed pubs and restaurants, in fact many never closed at all, and no country in Europe closed pubs for as long as they did here.

    I dont have to produce evidence to show that pubs are safe and conrtrolled environments because it's plain for all to see, if pubs were NOT safe then NPHET be falling over themselves to tell this to the public, indeed overlord Holohan would love this, he'd then be able to say "i told you so"

    Just because you can live with more draconian restrictions doesnt mean everyone can, i bet you've a cushty work from home job, what about those people struggling on the pandemic payment, struggling to pay mortgage or rent and to put food on the table, struggling to try and keep sane, not knowing if you'll ever get your job back...

    you might want to have a rethink there.


  • #1677
    SB71
    Closed Accounts Posts: 297 ✭✭SB71


    https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irelands-pubs-enduring-longest-lockdown-22588781

    I dont think anyone would mind as much if it was proved beyond doubt that pubs were the cause of huge cases, but it's flabbergasting that NPHET can be allowed to do this, the longest lockdown in all of Europe, and for what, nothing.

    Ireland was never anywhwre near as bad as the UK, France, Spain, Italy ,etc,etc yet you didnt see their medical professionals demanding that pubs be closed for this length of time.


  • #1678
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    vojiwox wrote: »
    Here's a good example of it spreading in pubs/restaurants

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/how-one-couple-s-weekend-away-resulted-in-30-covid-19-cases-1.4368824

    a young couple went away for a weekend and attended a house party. :rolleyes:


  • #1679
    Allinall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,395 ✭✭✭Allinall


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    a young couple went away for a weekend and attended a house party. :rolleyes:

    How many of the 10 people in the pub, and 4 people in the "drinks venue" would have contracted the virus off the couple of those places had been closed?


  • #1680
    Russman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Russman


    SB71 wrote: »
    Not every country has closed pubs and restaurants, in fact many never closed at all, and no country in Europe closed pubs for as long as they did here.

    I dont have to produce evidence to show that pubs are safe and conrtrolled environments because it's plain for all to see, if pubs were NOT safe then NPHET be falling over themselves to tell this to the public, indeed overlord Holohan would love this, he'd then be able to say "i told you so"

    Just because you can live with more draconian restrictions doesnt mean everyone can, i bet you've a cushty work from home job, what about those people struggling on the pandemic payment, struggling topay mortgage or rent and to put food on the table, struggling to try and keep sane, not knowing if you'll ever get your job back...

    you might want to have a rethink there.

    If you change the narrative from "we have amongst the lowest case numbers and the harshest lockdown", to "we have amongst the lowest case numbers because we have the harshest lockdown", would that not make more sense though ? I wouldn't be happy with waiting until things got really really bad before we imposed restrictions, would you ?

    Whether its plain to see or not, that's purely opinion. What about its plain to see pubs are places where people gather and that helps spread the virus ?
    You really think Holohan and the govt are doing all this for the craic ?
    It seems to me that almost every business claims to be safe and that they should be open, so why not open everything up ? Like I said earlier, its the low hanging fruit. They know they can't really shut everything down so they go with the obvious and easy ones.

    My employment or not has nothing to do with my opinion. I know people who are working from home, I know people on the PUP and I live with a front liner who suffered terrible mental health issues during the first lockdown (and is still getting treatment). Of course I have sympathy with people struggling, but there's a bigger picture that I can have an opinion about too.


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  • #1681
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Allinall wrote: »
    How many of the 10 people in the pub, and 4 people in the "drinks venue" would have contracted the virus off the couple of those places had been closed?

    How have they conclusively proven that they caught it from the couple? Were they hermetically sealed except the night they met them??


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