Mart Price Tracker

Albert Johnson · 07-11-2020 06:33PM

charolais0153 wrote: »

Seen a lovely sweet limousin heifer there, 340 kg 1130, connemara calf, if the quality is there you'll get the money

I'll not argue that but it's still 2 or maybe 3 quality weanlings and a good cull price before we're into cost in my mind anyway. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd bet that cow will be on the downhill after all that and it's time to go again.

josephsoap · 07-11-2020 06:49PM

Was watching MOC’s sale last night €2500 to €3000 seemed to be about the run of them for none halter’d animals - selling incalf heifers might be only the road where there might be a bit of profit out of beef/suckling.

patsy_mccabe · 07-11-2020 06:52PM

Fine Simm in-calf heifers selling there now in Roscrea for 1500.

charolais0153 · 07-11-2020 08:20PM

More heifers in balla, tops was 2500 for a 800kg ch heifer, quality was hard bought, over 1800 for heifers calving relatively soon of quality

Albert Johnson · 07-11-2020 09:26PM

josephsoap wrote: »

Was watching MOC’s sale last night €2500 to €3000 seemed to be about the run of them for none halter’d animals - selling incalf heifers might be only the road where there might be a bit of profit out of beef/suckling.

There's a lot of work involved and expense involved in getting them to that stage though. Heifer's of that quality are hard found and harder bought, then you have to get them incalf and there's always a small minority that won't take the bull for whatever reason. Quality is only one aspect, docility is paramount when selling springers.

It's a fair undertaking in both labour and expense to put together a bundle of those types, bull them and carry through until there springing down. My biggest fear would be Tb, imagine being stuck with 50 of those heifer's with no choice but to calve them down. You'll have the occasional mishap with heifer's slipping calf or breaking after 3 months ect, you've an expensive beef heifer at that stage.

Finally your customers will be your harshest critic's. As with everything you could sell 100 good ones and hear nothing but 1 hard luck story will always rise to the fore. It will be your fault in there eyes if the bull was too hard calved, the heifer overfed ect. Your relying on repeat custom and if there not happy they won't be back. Martin is a good few year's at it now and it's only in the last 5 year's that he's really started to excel. It takes awhile to build up a name and that's half the battle when it comes to real results.

memorystick · 07-11-2020 11:39PM

Albert Johnson wrote: »

It's a considerable price for a soon to be 8 year old cow imo. It's one thing buying a first calver and hopefully holding onto her for a good few year's but I find that once a cow gets to 10 or 12 her best days are over in most cases. Those bigger more muscled continental cows in particular tend to get wore out faster than a leaner plainer traditional type imo.

We all know of cow's that lasted 15+ year's and still done the business but there's a large percentage of cow's that are culled for whatever reason before there 7 years old. Granted you've a weanling to sell in the near future but it's a serious calf that will gross much North of €1000 atm.

You’d buy 6 or 7 good store Fr for the price of one cow and calf. Mightn’t have a U but it might be a better investment.

patsy_mccabe · 08-11-2020 12:21AM

I honestly think lads would be better off picking their best cows and breeding heifers off them. Considering the way suckling is going, even that is questionable.

kk.man · 08-11-2020 12:31AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Is there much hassle doing that is it just a matter of the vet signing off on it

Kinda Bass. My vet would be fussy and has tendencies like Doc Martin (TV series) but if you have one that genuinely resembles a WH he will do it. It's not the 1st time he did it for me but I wouldn't push it far.

The last fellas head was 6/8 white with a black streak almost down the middle. He genuinely had Hereford breeding somewhere in him and had the look of being suckler reared albeit poorly.

tanko · 08-11-2020 12:49AM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

At 9k how long will it take to her to turn a profit. It would take a fair pedigree heifer of any breed to be 9k.

If she has a heifer calf, it might be sold for 5K in Carnaross in a year or two, you just never know:rolleyes:

Bass Reeves · 08-11-2020 01:06AM

Sheep breeder wrote: »

At 9k how long will it take to her to turn a profit. It would take a fair pedigree heifer of any breed to be 9k.

tanko wrote: »

If she has a heifer calf, it might be sold for 5K in Carnaross in a year or two, you just never know:rolleyes:

You buy 15-18 middling FR stores for the price of her, they double there money in 12 months and you could go again

charolais0153 · 08-11-2020 01:07AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You buy 15-18 middling FR stores for the price of her, they double there money in 12 months and you could go again

It's 1 cow, a huge outlier, raises profile if both their sales, lads up and down the country sent doing it

charolais0153 · 08-11-2020 01:31AM

https://youtu.be/tbZTr8_JJFQ
A normal suckle operation

richie123 · 08-11-2020 10:10AM

No disrespect to suckler men here.
When we were in suckling what used to wredk my head was ..you'd buy a bunch of replacement s..you'd put them with the bull 9 months later (if they're all incalf)you might get a few calves ...hope said calves don't die from scour or pnuemonia! Keep that calf for two years and hope it stays alive.then sell ..honestly is there any other buisness out there that waits so long for such a poor return.

Bass Reeves · 08-11-2020 11:02AM

richie123 wrote: »

No disrespect to suckler men here.
When we were in suckling what used to wredk my head was ..you'd buy a bunch of replacement s..you'd put them with the bull 9 months later (if they're all incalf)you might get a few calves ...hope said calves don't die from scour or pnuemonia! Keep that calf for two years and hope it stays alive.then sell ..honestly is there any other buisness out there that waits so long for such a poor return.

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-focus-saying-goodbye-to-suckler-farming-after-25-years/

You can see the continual drain of Suckler farmers exiting it at present. That is why it hard to understand the high prices for Suckler cows and replacements on the last few pages.

The farmers above was averaging 1K and over for his calves as well as the 180/ head in subsidies and he still is planning on exiting. They were at the top of the game technically and the switch over to dairying should be within there grasp.

However I often wonder do these lads understand it milking cows 7 days a week for 45 weeks of the year and you are still tied to the place after that.

Ya while Pop's can give a hand or the kids are from maybe 16-23 then there is a bit if relief if you want a weekend away or to go to a match or races, buy only a bit of relief.

In a way I am happy all these are are heading dairying all the talk a few years ago was they would stay on the drystock side. They will continue to provide us with stores and cull cows admittedly a different type. These type of lads are going from producing 30-60 weanlings and a half dozen cull cows to 80 calves and 15-20 culls each year.

Grueller · 08-11-2020 11:28AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-focus-saying-goodbye-to-suckler-farming-after-25-years/

You can see the continual drain of Suckler farmers exiting it at present. That is why it hard to understand the high prices for Suckler cows and replacements on the last few pages.

The farmers above was averaging 1K and over for his calves as well as the 180/ head in subsidies and he still is planning on exiting. They were at the top of the game technically and the switch over to dairying should be within there grasp.

However I often wonder do these lads understand it milking cows 7 days a week for 45 weeks of the year and you are still tied to the place after that.

Ya while Pop's can give a hand or the kids are from maybe 16-23 then there is a bit if relief if you want a weekend away or to go to a match or races, buy only a bit of relief.

In a way I am happy all these are are heading dairying all the talk a few years ago was they would stay on the drystock side. They will continue to provide us with stores and cull cows admittedly a different type. These type of lads are going from producing 30-60 weanlings and a half dozen cull cows to 80 calves and 15-20 culls each year.

Bass, I am in my first year of dairying. I have stated here before that I am winding down the suckler herd but still have 45 of them at last count. This morning I have milked,scraped cubicles, buffered cows and let them to grass. That took 2 hours. I am in for tea now, but feeding sucklers, seeing 2 batches that are still out and general jobs attached to them took over an hour and a half. Dry stock would have required as much work.
Now whether I am dairy or dry stock I will go to the yard every day and spend a portion of the morning there. That leaves the evening. I have had 3 different local lads from 17-20 approach me looking to do relief milking. All from dairy farms and all good reliable lads. €40 would pay them. Taking every Sunday from 10 o clock on off all year will cost less than €2000. Put that through the books and for myself on the high tax bracket it is €1000 out of the paw.
I will also be dry for 7-8 weeks so the same young lads would do all Sundays work for that €40. Feed and clean cubicle beds being about it. That would leave me 8 Sundays off in a row all bar a 20 minute walkabout to put my own mind at ease.
I like your posts Bass because you have your figures spot on usually, but I do find your view on dairying is quite negative. I am not sure is that experience of it directly or from an outside perspective, but it does not have to be drudgery if facilities are up to and organisation are up to scratch.

richie123 · 08-11-2020 12:33PM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/beef-focus-saying-goodbye-to-suckler-farming-after-25-years/

You can see the continual drain of Suckler farmers exiting it at present. That is why it hard to understand the high prices for Suckler cows and replacements on the last few pages.

The farmers above was averaging 1K and over for his calves as well as the 180/ head in subsidies and he still is planning on exiting. They were at the top of the game technically and the switch over to dairying should be within there grasp.

However I often wonder do these lads understand it milking cows 7 days a week for 45 weeks of the year and you are still tied to the place after that.

Ya while Pop's can give a hand or the kids are from maybe 16-23 then there is a bit if relief if you want a weekend away or to go to a match or races, buy only a bit of relief.

In a way I am happy all these are are heading dairying all the talk a few years ago was they would stay on the drystock side. They will continue to provide us with stores and cull cows admittedly a different type. These type of lads are going from producing 30-60 weanlings and a half dozen cull cows to 80 calves and 15-20 culls each year.

But you see my point?? Waiting 3 ****ing years for a return?? That's bolix.and we did for years to make it worse.
Your point about workload in dairying.just take on partime workers.there out there pay them well and don't begrudge paying them well.
That's the key to any buisness.
Delegation.
If the money's not there to do that then don't do it fullstop.
Grueller is spot on imo.

GNWoodd · 08-11-2020 01:01PM

Grueller wrote: »

Bass, I am in my first year of dairying. I have stated here before that I am winding down the suckler herd but still have 45 of them at last count. This morning I have milked,scraped cubicles, buffered cows and let them to grass. That took 2 hours. I am in for tea now, but feeding sucklers, seeing 2 batches that are still out and general jobs attached to them took over an hour and a half. Dry stock would have required as much work.
Now whether I am dairy or dry stock I will go to the yard every day and spend a portion of the morning there. That leaves the evening. I have had 3 different local lads from 17-20 approach me looking to do relief milking. All from dairy farms and all good reliable lads. €40 would pay them. Taking every Sunday from 10 o clock on off all year will cost less than €2000. Put that through the books and for myself on the high tax bracket it is €1000 out of the paw.
I will also be dry for 7-8 weeks so the same young lads would do all Sundays work for that €40. Feed and clean cubicle beds being about it. That would leave me 8 Sundays off in a row all bar a 20 minute walkabout to put my own mind at ease.
I like your posts Bass because you have your figures spot on usually, but I do find your view on dairying is quite negative. I am not sure is that experience of it directly or from an outside perspective, but it does not have to be drudgery if facilities are up to and organisation are up to scratch.

Forty Euros for how many hours work ?

Grueller · 08-11-2020 01:40PM

GNWoodd wrote: »

Forty Euros for how many hours work ?

Cows in and out and milked in 1.30- 2 hrs depending on the paddock

charolais0153 · 08-11-2020 01:49PM

richie123 wrote: »

But you see my point?? Waiting 3 ****ing years for a return?? That's bolix.and we did for years to make it worse.
Your point about workload in dairying.just take on partime workers.there out there pay them well and don't begrudge paying them well.
That's the key to any buisness.
Delegation.
If the money's not there to do that then don't do it fullstop.
Grueller is spot on imo.

Where do you get the 3 years from

patsy_mccabe · 08-11-2020 01:51PM

richie123 wrote: »

But you see my point?? Waiting 3 ****ing years for a return?? That's bolix.and we did for years to make it worse.
Your point about workload in dairying.just take on partime workers.there out there pay them well and don't begrudge paying them well.
That's the key to any buisness.
Delegation.
If the money's not there to do that then don't do it fullstop.
Grueller is spot on imo.

You're looking at it completely wrong. It's the profit every year that counts.

On a suckler farm, every year you will sell culls cows. Lets say the average cow has 5 calves. That's a 20% replacement rate. Allowing for heifers that are not suitable for breeding, don't go in calf, are too wild, too narrow at the hips etc, you need about 25 heifers every year in a 100 cow herd. That means you need to breed 50% of your cows to a maternal type bull. I honestly think that's where most suckler guys go wrong. As most run a terminal type bull , they think they can go out every year and buy in heifers. The heifers are of unknown breeding, cost too much and at the end of the day, a big gamble.

Lady Haywire · 08-11-2020 02:02PM

I can't understand the farmers who buy in replacements all the time. Haven't bought in any here in many many years, it's just not worth it. No knowledge of the female line behind the heifer regarding calving ability or milk/temperament etc, never mind the TB risk of moving animals in.

In saying that I'm cadging Dad to let me have the 15 acres of fragmented land next year to do my own thing with it & I'd likely buy in heifers or cows with calves at foot to put incalf/sell on :pac:

sonnybill · 08-11-2020 03:39PM

tanko wrote: »

If she has a heifer calf, it might be sold for 5K in Carnaross in a year or two, you just never know:rolleyes:

Agreed.

richie123 · 08-11-2020 03:47PM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

You're looking at it completely wrong. It's the profit every year that counts.

On a suckler farm, every year you will sell culls cows. Lets say the average cow has 5 calves. That's a 20% replacement rate. Allowing for heifers that are not suitable for breeding, don't go in calf, are too wild, too narrow at the hips etc, you need about 25 heifers every year in a 100 cow herd. That means you need to breed 50% of your cows to a maternal type bull. I honestly think that's where most suckler guys go wrong. As most run a terminal type bull , they think they can go out every year and buy in heifers. The heifers are of unknown breeding, cost too much and at the end of the day, a big gamble.

I'm looking at it from this point of view.
If I'm starting out in the morning,
I buy 100 heifers to put to the bull..(suckling)
Or I buy 70 calved dairy cows
The heifers roi is in 3 years approx (bar a few culls,suckling)
The 70 calved dairy cows roi is the very next day.
I don't buy the labour argument.
Gruellers last post put that argument to bed imo.

Dozer1 · 08-11-2020 05:56PM

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/memo-to-agriland-i-will-not-be-finishing-cattle-this-winter/

Did This lad get out of beef aswell or is he still at sucklers

patsy_mccabe · 08-11-2020 07:56PM

Walter Brennans sale

https://www.donedeal.ie/beefcattle-for-sale/special-incalf-springers/26457366

https://www.facebook.com/media/set?vanity=tj.duffy.73&set=a.3476336035785814

Danzy · 08-11-2020 07:57PM

Dozer1 wrote: »

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/memo-to-agriland-i-will-not-be-finishing-cattle-this-winter/

Did This lad get out of beef aswell or is he still at sucklers

Far as I know, that man is out of sucklers and has dry stock.

Drove past his place last February, incredible setup and grass.

Bass Reeves · 09-11-2020 12:56AM

Grueller wrote: »

Bass, I am in my first year of dairying. I have stated here before that I am winding down the suckler herd but still have 45 of them at last count. This morning I have milked,scraped cubicles, buffered cows and let them to grass. That took 2 hours. I am in for tea now, but feeding sucklers, seeing 2 batches that are still out and general jobs attached to them took over an hour and a half. Dry stock would have required as much work.
Now whether I am dairy or dry stock I will go to the yard every day and spend a portion of the morning there. That leaves the evening. I have had 3 different local lads from 17-20 approach me looking to do relief milking. All from dairy farms and all good reliable lads. €40 would pay them. Taking every Sunday from 10 o clock on off all year will cost less than €2000. Put that through the books and for myself on the high tax bracket it is €1000 out of the paw.
I will also be dry for 7-8 weeks so the same young lads would do all Sundays work for that €40. Feed and clean cubicle beds being about it. That would leave me 8 Sundays off in a row all bar a 20 minute walkabout to put my own mind at ease.
I like your posts Bass because you have your figures spot on usually, but I do find your view on dairying is quite negative. I am not sure is that experience of it directly or from an outside perspective, but it does not have to be drudgery if facilities are up to and organisation are up to scratch.

I think if you read my posts in different threads over the years you hardly say I am negative about dairying. But I do think there is a lot more to the transition than many think. Its one thing taking Sundays off and getting a lad to cover 1-2 milkings or even a week end. Time off is a different thing

I went to Australia last year for a month. I do not think I could have done that with a dairy operation. My youngest lad was in College but covered weekends, my daughter kept an eye on the few at home while a friend looked after the main farm during the week, all cattle were out, all silage field's closed and it was basically keep them moving between paddocks. While I was on Australia I even ordered ration to be delivered for to start a finishing bunch when I came back.

I coached GAA for a good few years under age. I never saw any lad that was a dairy farmer at a match to watch his son or daughter except for the final which were on in the middle of the day.

Transition to dairying is a multi facet transition. On one hand you have the capital and expense side but this is easily managed by the profitability of dairying. The actual lifestyle change is different and many do not factor that in. You are making a financial decisions that you are committed to for 20 years plus IMO.

I think this is easier in your 20's and 30's. However from 40 on you have to factor in other issues. To make the entry to dairy worth while it is a 20 year plus committment. The ''while Pop's around'' comments was a reflection that labour is needed for a work life balance. It easy in any business to get cover for 1-2 days. It the longer breaks that are the issue. These are manageable while either you have an older or younger family member to help. However nowadays with smaller families and travelling options younger help may not be there when you are in your late 50's. This could see you tied to the place more than you might wish.

While dairying give the option to farm fulltime it comes with a cost of that you need to look at. I think if I had a job unless I disliked the job if I was in my 40's I see it out for another 15 ish years and stay in drystock.

You also have to factor in inheritance/ succession. Going dairying may tie up finance that will see you having to ''stick at it'' for 20+ years. It also may create a situation where the vast majority of your wealth is tied up in the farm or farm business. It very hard to extract that wealth from it. Will one child inherit all.

If lads look back over my posting I have been negative about suckler's for a very long time. I considered the extra subsidities a trap to farmers more than an asset. It kept lads in suckler's. However I think there are other options as well as going dairying.

By the way I think this should be hived off into a separate thread maybe called transition from sucklers or even Suckler endgame or whatever. It a discussion that would not have been had 2-3 years ago but lads seem ready for it now

Bass Reeves · 09-11-2020 01:31AM

richie123 wrote: »

I'm looking at it from this point of view.
If I'm starting out in the morning,
I buy 100 heifers to put to the bull..(suckling)
Or I buy 70 calved dairy cows
The heifers roi is in 3 years approx (bar a few culls,suckling)
The 70 calved dairy cows roi is the very next day.
I don't buy the labour argument.
Gruellers last post put that argument to bed imo.

With the 70 dairy cows you need paddocks, roadways water setup, a certain amount of reseeding, milking parlour, adapting housing to take cubicles etc. Probably equivalent to 1-1.5k/ cow.

There is no question if you are going farming fulltime that dairying is the best option. But take a father and son( it could be a daughter as well) middle of the road suckler operation. Father had always farmer fulltime, son in his early 40's has a decent job off farm. 100 acre land in one block at present 60 Suckler cows finishing heifers and bulls. Father can no longer manage the cows and it is incapable of sustaining one not to mind giving the father s retirement option as well as an income to the son. Assuming that suckler's are not an option the choices

Going dairying will require the son to leave his fulltime job and assuming that they go 100 cows an investment of anything from 150-200k. It has to be done in one fell swoop or at least a 6-8 month period.

Change over to drystock and into dairy X stock. They have options calf/weanling/store to beef, calf/weanling to store. This can be done using existing calves and culls to start or by selling existing stock. 60 Suckler cows @ 1200 each gives 72k, 60 weanlings @700 each 42k, 60 finished cattle @1200 each 72k throwing 150k free after bills. I think I may be wrong but a retiring farming is allowed to take 200 k out of an business in a retirement package even if not I am sure there are other ways to transfer a lot of that out especially if cattle are valued at any sort of decent base value on the books.

Son buys 100 dairycross weanlings/stores costing 50k and farms away parent gives a hand as much as possible. He writes off start up losses against his PAYE income.

Grueller · 09-11-2020 10:24AM

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think if you read my posts in different threads over the years you hardly say I am negative about dairying. But I do think there is a lot more to the transition than many think. Its one thing taking Sundays off and getting a lad to cover 1-2 milkings or even a week end. Time off is a different thing

I went to Australia last year for a month. I do not think I could have done that with a dairy operation. My youngest lad was in College but covered weekends, my daughter kept an eye on the few at home while a friend looked after the main farm during the week, all cattle were out, all silage field's closed and it was basically keep them moving between paddocks. While I was on Australia I even ordered ration to be delivered for to start a finishing bunch when I came back.

I coached GAA for a good few years under age. I never saw any lad that was a dairy farmer at a match to watch his son or daughter except for the final which were on in the middle of the day.

Transition to dairying is a multi facet transition. On one hand you have the capital and expense side but this is easily managed by the profitability of dairying. The actual lifestyle change is different and many do not factor that in. You are making a financial decisions that you are committed to for 20 years plus IMO.

I think this is easier in your 20's and 30's. However from 40 on you have to factor in other issues. To make the entry to dairy worth while it is a 20 year plus committment. The ''while Pop's around'' comments was a reflection that labour is needed for a work life balance. It easy in any business to get cover for 1-2 days. It the longer breaks that are the issue. These are manageable while either you have an older or younger family member to help. However nowadays with smaller families and travelling options younger help may not be there when you are in your late 50's. This could see you tied to the place more than you might wish.

While dairying give the option to farm fulltime it comes with a cost of that you need to look at. I think if I had a job unless I disliked the job if I was in my 40's I see it out for another 15 ish years and stay in drystock.

You also have to factor in inheritance/ succession. Going dairying may tie up finance that will see you having to ''stick at it'' for 20+ years. It also may create a situation where the vast majority of your wealth is tied up in the farm or farm business. It very hard to extract that wealth from it. Will one child inherit all.

If lads look back over my posting I have been negative about suckler's for a very long time. I considered the extra subsidities a trap to farmers more than an asset. It kept lads in suckler's. However I think there are other options as well as going dairying.

By the way I think this should be hived off into a separate thread maybe called transition from sucklers or even Suckler endgame or whatever. It a discussion that would not have been had 2-3 years ago but lads seem ready for it now

My cows are being dried off tomorrow morning Bass. I will start calving on January 15th.
I could head for Oz next week for 2 months easily enough.
You will only be a slave if you make it so.

Bass, I work hard as do most others on here. I start at 5.45am. I work off farm 15-20 hours per week. However with almost no other labour around I am finished every evening at 6.30 - 7.00. Almost is as you call it "Pops". As I am in and out of high risk facilities with Covid I have basically barred him from the yard as he is high risk as is my mother. I can still manage the workload due to good facilities.

The problem with the scenario of going into dairy cross beef is that you are still in beef. I fooled myself for ten years that suckling is profitable. I am not going to do the same that any other type of beef is profitable in any meaningful way.
A friend of mine who was a serious suckler man transitioned to a dairy cross calf to store system. He threw open his books to me. He is making absolutely no more money from that system than he was at suckling, but has less work. He has 110 acres in one block of prime Wexford land but ruled out dairying as he was 46 at the time of changing system. His young lad is 21 now and my friend has said that the problem he sees now is that the son will never farm as due to the low profit levels in the system he sees no future. You said about sticking it out for 15 years if you were in drystock, but that puts that mans son at 36, very little profit on the farm at a stage where he is in the teeth of mortgage, family etc so has not got the cash or opportunity to change system.
You are right that dairy doesn't suit everyone but the man that Inhave outlined above is sorry he "hadn't the guts" as he put it himself.

patsy_mccabe · 09-11-2020 10:51AM

Great discussion. I'm only a curious observer but does anyone know any tillage lads that made the transition into dairying. Going from suckling is one thing where you have some experience of cows but from tillage....

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