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Vat fraud??

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13

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    #62
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    wally1990 wrote: »
    OP is surely trolling?

    Based on my experience in the trenches, likely not.


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    #63
    atilladehun
    Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭atilladehun


    Don't stress yourself. Just do everything right from now on.

    Every company has returns. It might cost you money, just do it. They've shipped it to you. You can ship it right back. Look on their site now. Start contacting and printing what you need to.

    I know you want to keep it and you're happy to pay for it but that may not be the point. By returning the item you may get to delete the sale. Suck it up.

    Black Friday sales in a week or two, you'll get a telly and it won't be bothering you for up to 5 years.


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    #64
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,026 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    baalad wrote: »
    What iam trying to say is that if he ordered the tv for the purposes of selling it to a consumer then there wouldnt be an issue so couldnt he theoretically sell it to me and i pay the vat.

    Thats surely a viable solution

    A definite no. There is no purchase nor import in the company’s name so you would be asking them to create a fraudulent transaction.


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    #65
    mrbubbles
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭mrbubbles


    As others have said, a very stupid and naive thing to do.

    But I think you have realised that now, so by way of a possible resolution: try contacting the company and explain that you shouldn't have put through the transaction with the VAT number. Ask if they can put through a new transaction WITHOUT a VAT number and then void/refund the previous transaction. That way, the "business to business" transaction is replaced by a "business to consumer" transaction, which is what it should have been in this case.

    This does rely on a) you having the money to cover the second transaction until the first is refunded and b) that the VAT number won't be reported on a refunded transaction; but if those both work out then the damage should be mitigated.

    The reason that you'll need to make a second payment before asking for a refund of the first is that, ideally, you don't want to have to send the TV back and they are VERY unlikely to issue a refund first, given that you are still in possession of the goods.


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    #66
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭optogirl


    baalad wrote: »
    I posted here to seek advice because i didn't understand how it works etc I didnt post here for help on how to avoid tax etc

    Iam more the wiser now and i wont be doing it again! As i said. Nobody was murdered. I saved a few euro god forbid. Ill pay back any costs that are owed to revenue when it comes to it

    You would save more money by just stealing it outright. You could put all your rubbish in your neighbours bins and piggy back on their Wifi. You could fill your car with petrol at the garage and drive off. What harm? Nobody died.


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    #67
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    Goose81 wrote: »
    Look it's done now nothing you can do, not worth stressing yourself to bits over it.

    Just do whatever you need to do to return the TV and get a full refund from them and say nothing to your boss.

    If anything ever comes if it just come clean and say you returned it and there should be no issue however it's very unlikely anything will ever come of it.

    Forget holding into this though just return it and order it again even if you need to take a hit on the shipping to send to back.

    From experience you should be able to cancel the order and the shipping company send it back before it ever reaches you.

    Cheers for at least offering some form of constructive criticism. Ideally id like to resolve the issue without sending it back of course but if i have to do that then i will. I plan to contact revenue Monday to explain things and if i can resolve it with them somehow that would be great otherwise i will return the product to the sender and request a refund and then re purchase as advised here.

    It was a foolish decision i made. I gave it no thought and had no clue how vat works or what the consequences were. Iam sure iam not the only person to do this but iam trying to do the right thing now.


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    #68
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    For anyone thats being helpful and offering constructive advice. Thank you. To the rest of you - we all mess up and do stupid ****. Don't be so quick to judge. Iam well aware at this stage how stupid i was. Lesson learnt!


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    #69
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,902 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    I have a business amazon account. I don't pay VAT on goods from other EU countries. I do have to include the receipts in my accounts & I do have to declare it to revenue here in Ireland when I do vat returns.

    You could land your boss in trouble or put the eye on hin/her


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    #70
    bikeman1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    baalad wrote: »
    For anyone thats being helpful and offering constructive advice. Thank you. To the rest of you - we all mess up and do stupid ****. Don't be so quick to judge. Iam well aware at this stage how stupid i was. Lesson learnt!

    I’m glad to read that you are saying lesson learned!

    My saying to people is if it sounds to good to be true - then it probably is!

    As many of us in the tax world know, Revenue have almighty powers and knowledge. They are not a force to be messed with in the slightest. They have far more powers than the Gardaí and if anyone thinks they don’t use it, they’re badly mistaken.

    I have seen this happen in a legitimate case. Revenue will be electronically notified that an Irish VAT number was used for a transaction. The VAT return and associated VIES return will not be filed correctly and further investigation will ensue. In the situation I came across, they just hadn’t filed the VAT3 correctly but the goods were legit.

    There would be the tax, interest and penalties due.

    The whole thing needs to be fully reversed and made correct.

    One other thing, a business can’t claim non Irish VAT on their Irish VAT returns. So HMRC UK VAT stays in the UK.


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    #71
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    I have checked the tracking and the product is has not left the uk yet so i have emailed the company in the hope they can cancel the shipment. Ideally id like to pay in full and then have this order refunded are erased but i dont have the funds to order in full so i will likely have to receive a refund before i can re-order. Hopefully it works out for me.


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    #72
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I have a business amazon account. I don't pay VAT on goods from other EU countries. I do have to include the receipts in my accounts & I do have to declare it to revenue here in Ireland when I do vat returns.

    You could land your boss in trouble or put the eye on hin/her

    Thats what i feel guilty about. I can live with getting myself in trouble but not getting someone else in trouble because of my mistake. I have a very good relationship with my boss so last thing i want is to get him in trouble.

    I have made contact with the seller so i hope it can be resolved without any issues.

    I know you guys might laugh but i was clueless to what i was doing. It was so hard to believe that it could be so easy to get it discounted and i didnt for a second think about the consequences. It was a stupid rash decision but the stress its caused me is unbelievable. You live and learn i guess.


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    #73
    Goose81
    Registered Users Posts: 4,171 ✭✭✭Goose81


    baalad wrote: »
    I have checked the tracking and the product is has not left the uk yet so i have emailed the company in the hope they can cancel the shipment. Ideally id like to pay in full and then have this order refunded are erased but i dont have the funds to order in full so i will likely have to receive a refund before i can re-order. Hopefully it works out for me.
    baalad wrote: »
    Cheers for at least offering some form of constructive criticism. Ideally id like to resolve the issue without sending it back of course but if i have to do that then i will. I plan to contact revenue Monday to explain things and if i can resolve it with them somehow that would be great otherwise i will return the product to the sender and request a refund and then re purchase as advised here.

    It was a foolish decision i made. I gave it no thought and had no clue how vat works or what the consequences were. Iam sure iam not the only person to do this but iam trying to do the right thing now.




    Mate what the ****.

    Say nothing to your boss under any circumstances and do not contact revenue under any circumstances


    Return the TV or whatever you ordered and get a full refund, stop trying to keep the ****ing thing you ordered.

    You need to make this as if it ever happened, stop trying to keep the goods. Send them back and get a refund and stop being an idiot. Is your job worth shipping costs, Jesus.

    Return the thing and say nothing to anyone, don't say anything to your boss and don't say anything to revenue, that's the last I will say on it.


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    #74
    Car99
    Registered Users Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭Car99


    baalad wrote: »
    I plan to contact revenue Monday to explain things and if i can resolve it with them somehow .

    If you can reverse the order completely I'm not sure that revenue would need to be involved.


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    #75
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    I already notified my Boss just so he's aware IF anything did pop up. Each to their own but i felt that was the honourable thing to do. We are close so i know he will be ok with it once he knows iam doing the right thing. I will deny/return the order once it arrives and re-order once i receive my refund.

    What a stressful mess this has been!


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    #76
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    baalad wrote: »
    I already notified my Boss just so he's aware IF anything did pop up. Each to their own but i felt that was the honourable thing to do. We are close so i know he will be ok with it once he knows iam doing the right thing. I will deny/return the order once it arrives and re-order once i receive my refund.

    What a stressful mess this has been!

    Good choice, I actually touched on this topic recently where it looks like another poster was doing something similar to you without realising consequences
    Gumbo wrote: »
    Normal story for main dealers.

    I always buy from camskill using a vat number to get the vat off and then get fitted locally.
    Mayo_fan wrote: »
    You have disclosed your car and your white collar profession many times on this forum as well as your reg. Assuming the tyres (“always”) are for this car then you may want to think a little harder is it worth it as there are serious consequences for what you are doing. And if you want to continue with the risk keep it to yourself.......

    Camskills record your VAT number and all eu countries share this type data between themselves(specific returns for eu exports). Revenue have access to records to state that vat number xx imported tyres, next step is the owner of this vat number should disclose as an import on their vat return (and if necessary pay the private element). Revenues expectation is that these tyres are being used wholly and exclusively for a business purpose so if they find out they are not they will obviously get suspicious of what else is going on and can extend the scope of their investigations to a full scale audit of all taxes

    Of course if all is above board them as a mod you should consider explaining yourself better rather than giving posters false hope


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    #77
    atilladehun
    Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭atilladehun


    baalad wrote: »
    I already notified my Boss just so he's aware IF anything did pop up. Each to their own but i felt that was the honourable thing to do. We are close so i know he will be ok with it once he knows iam doing the right thing. I will deny/return the order once it arrives and re-order once i receive my refund.

    What a stressful mess this has been!

    Hopefully a decent slagging is all you'll get.

    I'm not an authority on this but I'd imagine with a direct return or cancellation then the transaction didn't happen in the eyes of revenue. If you can achieve this then don't waste their time or draw their attention towards your boss.


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    #78
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    atilladehun wrote: »
    Hopefully a decent slagging is all you'll get.

    I'm not an authority on this but I'd imagine with a direct return or cancellation then the transaction didn't happen in the eyes of revenue. If you can achieve this then don't waste their time or draw their attention towards your boss.

    Believe it or not his exact response was that "9 times out of 10 it wont cause any implications but that none the less, its best not to take the risk"

    Can anyone actually confirm btw, that returning / refusing delivery will indeed void the sale?? If theres still going to be a record of the sale then my efforts to rectify this will be for nothing!

    I would of course be confident if the order was cancelled BEFORE the product was shipped but does the fact its already shipped and paid for change things??


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    #79
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    If you cancel its no different than saying your autocomplete filled in the vat number box when you bought without noticing.

    Don't **** with vat. Parents were audited because people were using their vat number to bring in lots of stuff. Hassle for nothing. There should be 2 factor authentication on vat numbers. Or something where you have to approve the transaction for it to go through. Imagine how much vat fraud goes on


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    #80
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    frozenfrozen wrote: »
    If you cancel its no different than saying your autocomplete filled in the vat number box when you bought without noticing.

    Don't **** with vat. Parents were audited because people were using their vat number to bring in lots of stuff. Hassle for nothing. There should be 2 factor authentication on vat numbers. Or something where you have to approve the transaction for it to go through. Imagine how much vat fraud goes on

    I agree to be honest. I couldn't believe how easy it was. It was literally the equivalent to just popping in a discount code pretty much. Iam not going to condone it but it was a no brainer for me at the moment of purchase. I saw a huge discount immediately and i did not see how it could come back to me in that moment. I just thought wow amazing, i just saved myself a few hundred euro.

    It wasn't until afterwards i started dwelling on it and i had no idea how big a deal it was until i posted here.

    I understand better now but at the time i didn't feel like i was committing a crime. I just thought i was being smart!

    Given how easy it was though, theres got to be hundreds if not thousands of people doing the same thing!

    Also, with regards to cancelling the product. If the order is shipped and paid for then i cannot technically cancel it. I can deny/return the order (which is my intention) but is this the same as cancelling??


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    #81
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    Id say what you did gets caught a lot, easy to do easy to detect.

    They might get a list of all vat number usage and just put it against their list of who owns the vat number.

    Return the TV and nothing will happen. If anything did happen just say you accidentally used it and cancelled the order when you realised. Not even a lie at that point


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    #82
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    frozenfrozen wrote: »
    Id say what you did gets caught a lot, easy to do easy to detect.

    They might get a list of all vat number usage and just put it against their list of who owns the vat number.

    Return the TV and nothing will happen. If anything did happen just say you accidentally used it and cancelled the order when you realised. Not even a lie at that point

    Generally how does it work? Let's say you buy something and you pay ex vat using a random vat number. At some point revenue come across that sale right?? Why exactly would that be a big issue though ? Wouldn't they just assume the company obviously ordered it??

    If for instance the company specialise in cars and revenue see the sale of a car parts. Wouldn't they not just assume the vat number was used legitametly by the company??

    Forgive me if iam being thick. Iam just trying to understand how it all works and how revenue actually catch people who do this?

    I know for sure companies buy personal items all the time and put it through the books and never heard of them being prosecuted. Its obviously different if a person is not vat registered but is producing a vat number although from revenues perspective how do they know it wasnt the company that ordered??


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    #83
    wench
    Registered Users Posts: 1,630 ✭✭✭wench


    Have you heard of a little thing called VAT returns?
    If it doesn't all add up, it will be flagged and can trigger an audit

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/accounting-for-vat/how-to-account-for-value-added-tax/how-do-you-complete-a-vat3-return.aspx


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    #84
    atilladehun
    Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭atilladehun


    Well companies could but shouldn't buy parts and sell them for cash to customers ex vat. This would be illegal. Revenue would like to see the paperwork to ensure this didn't happen.

    When companies put things through the books like you say it is illegal. If it is the company owner then that person is taking the personal risk. If it is an employee then it is a fireable and prosecutable offence.


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    #85
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    wench wrote: »
    Have you heard of a little thing called VAT returns?
    If it doesn't all add up, it will be flagged and can trigger an audit

    https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/accounting-for-vat/how-to-account-for-value-added-tax/how-do-you-complete-a-vat3-return.aspx

    Again, forgive my stupidity but i thought that your vat returns where when you bought a product and you paid vat, and you then send of proof of all your vat returns in order to reclaim the vat???

    In this instance the vat is deducted and never charged at the point of sale so you are never looking to get a vat return on this sale.


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    #86
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    Lets say a company orders 10 individual products and pays the vat on them. He also orders 1 item where he never paid vat.

    His books will show he saved x amount vat in total but his paperwork will suggest the 11th item was never ordered to begin with as theres no paperwork?? Am i getting there or am i still off the mark lol


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    #87
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    baalad wrote: »
    Generally how does it work? Let's say you buy something and you pay ex vat using a random vat number. At some point revenue come across that sale right?? Why exactly would that be a big issue though ? Wouldn't they just assume the company obviously ordered it??

    If for instance the company specialise in cars and revenue see the sale of a car parts. Wouldn't they not just assume the vat number was used legitametly by the company??

    Forgive me if iam being thick. Iam just trying to understand how it all works and how revenue actually catch people who do this?

    I know for sure companies buy personal items all the time and put it through the books and never heard of them being prosecuted. Its obviously different if a person is not vat registered but is producing a vat number although from revenues perspective how do they know it wasnt the company that ordered??

    Don't know how it works from their end but I dont think its done as much as you think. Yes people will blur the lines between their business and personal use but I dont think its right to assume employees are using their employers vat number for personal items.

    They will somehow get a list of every irish vat number used and then by random selection or a computer see the ones that are with an address / credit card not usually associated with that business. Then look any closer and that item isn't listed in their vat returns...

    They care because they might be sending that company a vat refund when that item being bought could actually mean they aren't entitled to the same refund etc.

    Its not a nobody loses out situation because the vat needs to balance out or else revenue would be subsidising your TV


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    #88
    frozenfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,882 ✭✭✭frozenfrozen


    There will always be paperwork if you are buying from somewhere that sells exvat because they will be declaring to their country revenue the reason they sold it exvat


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    #89
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 28,118 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    baalad wrote: »
    If the product was bought for business use then it would be ok right? Couldnt he just say that it was for business use?

    Yes he could if it ever came up, I've had two revenue vat inspections and it's not this kind of thing on their radar. The mistake you made was not asking your boss first, is this a laptop, screen etc it could be considered for business use.
    You said you get on well with them, own up to it and let them figure out the course of action.


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    #90
    Grueller
    Registered Users Posts: 5,115 ✭✭✭Grueller


    atilladehun wrote: »
    Don't stress yourself. Just do everything right from now on.

    Every company has returns. It might cost you money, just do it. They've shipped it to you. You can ship it right back. Look on their site now. Start contacting and printing what you need to.

    I know you want to keep it and you're happy to pay for it but that may not be the point. By returning the item you may get to delete the sale. Suck it up.

    Black Friday sales in a week or two, you'll get a telly and it won't be bothering you for up to 5 years.

    I thought there was no limit on the length that revenue could go back?


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    #91
    baalad
    Registered Users Posts: 480 ✭✭baalad


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Yes he could if it ever came up, I've had two revenue vat inspections and it's not this kind of thing on their radar. The mistake you made was not asking your boss first, is this a laptop, screen etc it could be considered for business use.
    You said you get on well with them, own up to it and let them figure out the course of action.

    Ive brought it up with him and honestly he reacted like it wasn't a huge deal. I explained i was cancelling / returning the order and he just said not to worry that it should have been an issue but its certainly best practice to not do it!


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