Schools closed until February? (part 3)

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 03:54PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, why prioritise testing resources on schools when the positivity rate in schools is so low? Either we are testing the wrong people in schools or we are testing too many.

The evidence suggests that the virus is not spreading in school settings. It is spreading in more uncontrolled environments. That is where the public health focus should be.

So we're right back at the beginning of today's argument about the positivity rate from unreliable data like one big circle jerk from hell? Can you at least give that argument 24 hours rest before regurgitating it?

There is a lot of evidence actually, here and in other large studies done that schools contribute to spread. I don't believe even the Irish government have said it's not spreading there, yet you're going to make that unbelievable claim after 1,000 cases, and the outbreaks which doubled each week?

Schools, especially primary are not controlled environments.
-Full of people aged 10 or over who can contract and spread the virus at least as well as adults do.
-They aren't wearing masks.
-Social distancing isn't often possible as we have one of the largest class sizes in Europe crowded in small classrooms. Hence the language in the DES guidelines for re-opening of "where possible." The question is, where IS it possible?
-Lack of adequate ppe
-Children moving all over the classroom and on top of each other on the yard
-Unmasked parents talking into each other's faces in the carpark every single day
-Moving the goal posts of what constitutes a close contact
-Uneven application of that definition
-Not widely or "mass testing" when positive cases are found in said cramped room with no social distancing
-A collapsed test and trace system
-Principals being left to make decisions as HSE unreachable
-Dangerous sanitiser recall

I think that's most the issues. Now tell me what about any of that shít show lends to a "controlled environment."

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 03:59PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Since we listen to everything Tony Holohan says:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/nphet-not-anticipating-advising-against-schools-reopening-after-midterm-1.4393146

Everybody has read that article by now.

I don't agree with that decision. Dr. Fauci of a higher ranking/more experience disagrees with him. The government have also (and lets not forget MelbourneMan) asserted that the decisions being made are economical in nature too. Well I think health comes first and the economy doesn't have to be sacrificed if our government decided to be forward thinking and put in the hard work to do more to make our schools safer so that our kids and their families can be safer too. Do you not agree?

meeeeh · 28-10-2020 04:01PM

irishblessing wrote: »

I think that's most the issues. Now tell me what about any of that shít show lends to a "controlled environment."

Well Tony Holohan thinks it is controlled or he would recommend call for closure of schools and since What Tony Holohan says should be taken at face value we can dismiss your argument.

Or are you using different standards for other people's arguments and your copy paste stuff that you think will become more valid more you repeat it.

khalessi · 28-10-2020 04:11PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Again, why prioritise testing resources on schools when the positivity rate in schools is so low? Either we are testing the wrong people in schools or we are testing too many.

The evidence suggests that the virus is not spreading in school settings. It is spreading in more uncontrolled environments. That is where the public health focus should be.

Well as raind said on the main thred numbers are going up in 5-14 year olds, be nice to know officially where they are coming from.

Also would be nice if the same testing procedures were applied throughout all sectors. Chidlren are not the only people in schools, they are workplaces.

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 04:11PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Well Tony Holohan thinks it is controlled or he would recommend call for closure of schools and since What Tony Holohan says should be taken at face value we can dismiss your argument.

Or are you using different standards for other people's arguments and your copy paste stuff that you think will become more valid more you repeat it.

Like he was listened to when he/NPHET first recommended level 5 shutdown and it was ignored? On balance of "economy and livelihoods?" So I'm not the only one who disagrees with his conclusions. Doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing, but there are agendas and coverups of inadequacies.

And let's not forget how the cervical test crises was handled while he was in charge.

meeeeh · 28-10-2020 04:13PM

irishblessing wrote: »

Like he was listened to when he/NPHET first recommended level 5 shutdown and it was ignored? On balance of "economy and livelihoods?" So I'm not the only one who disagrees with him.

And let's not forget how the cervical test crises was handled while he was in charge.

So should we then also disregard this:

Good to see you know more than Tony Holohan, who has just said the numbers/trend can't prove anything yet. I posted it earlier today.

Tell me do you think you know more than Dr. Holohan?

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 04:35PM

meeeeh wrote: »

So should we then also disregard this:

Tell me do you think you know more than Dr. Holohan?

I refer you to my earlier comment:

"Doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing, but there are agendas and coverups of inadequacies."

I think Dr. Fauci knows more, and is agenda/f-k up free as far as his comments on Ireland goes, just to offer that up.

is_that_so · 28-10-2020 04:36PM

Result of ASTI teachers' ballot known today

https://www.irishtimes.com/result-of-second-level-teachers-strike-ballot-expected-on-wednesday-afternoon-1.4393308

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 04:39PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Result of ASTI teachers' ballot known today

https://www.irishtimes.com/result-of-second-level-teachers-strike-ballot-expected-on-wednesday-afternoon-1.4393308

I hope they are able to get the action they and we all deserve to have in place. It shouldn't take a ballot to do the right thing.

meeeeh · 28-10-2020 04:52PM

irishblessing wrote: »

I refer you to my earlier comment:

"Doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's doing, but there are agendas and coverups of inadequacies."

I think Dr. Fauci knows more, and is agenda/f-k up free as far as his comments on Ireland goes, just to offer that up.

I think you are doing huge disservices to dr. Fauci to actually assume he would publicly undermine expert advice in another country. I presume you are still misrepresenting September interview that was about what you do when things are out of control. As it happens he was also on Andrew Marr this Sunday where he said he doesn't envisage complete lock down in US. So he either thinks Trump is doing good enough job or maybe he wouldn't put country on Level 5 as soon as Nephet did. I don't have a link though, at least not for that part of interview.

Icyseanfitz · 28-10-2020 05:09PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Result of ASTI teachers' ballot known today

https://www.irishtimes.com/result-of-second-level-teachers-strike-ballot-expected-on-wednesday-afternoon-1.4393308

Fingers crossed something comes of it and schools can be a safer and more informed

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 05:29PM

For those still saying that teachers want schools closed...

The results of that ballot clearly say we want to teach and work, just don't take the piss with us. Hopefully that will put to bed the argument from the usual suspects about teachers wanting schools to close.

Str8outtaWuhan · 28-10-2020 05:32PM

is_that_so wrote: »

Result of ASTI teachers' ballot known today

https://www.irishtimes.com/result-of-second-level-teachers-strike-ballot-expected-on-wednesday-afternoon-1.4393308

They are happy to have < 2m social distance, it must be true that teachers are immune :rolleyes:

wirelessdude01 · 28-10-2020 05:35PM

Smacruairi wrote: »

For those still saying that teachers want schools closed...

The results of that ballot clearly say we want to teach and work, just don't take the piss with us. Hopefully that will put to bed the argument from the usual suspects about teachers wanting schools to close.

I await the posts calling teachers "entitled" for voting yes to the things they did. Who do they think they are wanting a fit for purpose test, trace, track and investigate system. The actual thoughts of the education sector wanting to protect all of the school community and enable the continuity of education to all.

Having said that, I did say at the time that pay equality shouldn't have been put anywhere on this ballot. People will just latch onto that.
IMO totally dilutes legitimate concerns re Covid stuff.

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 05:36PM

Str8outtaWuhan wrote: »

They are happy to have < 2m social distance, it must be true that teachers are immune :rolleyes:

We can't get 1m in a classroom let alone ask for 2m...

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 05:36PM

meeeeh wrote: »

I think you are doing huge disservices to dr. Fauci to actually assume he would publicly undermine expert advice in another country. I presume you are still misrepresenting September interview that was about what you do when things are out of control. As it happens he was also on Andrew Marr this Sunday where he said he doesn't envisage complete lock down in US. So he either thinks Trump is doing good enough job or maybe he wouldn't put country on Level 5 as soon as Nephet did. I don't have a link though, at least not for that part of interview.

I posted his words verbatim on the foot of you saying you are 100% sure he would never comment on another country and also that he said schools shouldn't be open at the highest level. You have refused to apologise to me for saying I misrepresented him even after I posted the article contents and direct quotes which is what you said you would only be satisfied by. Still no apology and you're only reiterating your bs again. That's the type of poster you are. There are states on a complete lockdown already, or cities (such as NY did earlier) and they have jurisdiction so as usual you're talking nonsense. My family live in one such state that have just renewed their lockdown until early January 2021. They are one of the few states keeping control of it. All schools are fully remote. You really haven't a clue.

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 05:43PM

Open the Pubs wrote: »

Government needs to finally stand up these unions, holding their fellow citizens to ransom for far too long.

Most other workers chipped in and worked through the pandemic. Teachers have been on one long holiday since this started and done nothing but whinge.Their precious unions are selfish striking during a pandemic. Another pay rise due to this extortion coming.

Trolls gonna troll.

(And I'm a parent)

JJJackal · 28-10-2020 05:44PM

According to the Irish Times Article teachers want N95 masks. I believe it is a struggle to get them in a hospital setting for staff looking after patients with presumed or confirmed COVID19.

I do not think the general public will support teachers in this strike.

I also cannot see teachers actually going on strike - no pay etc

Boggles · 28-10-2020 05:48PM

JJJackal wrote: »

According to the Irish Times Article teachers want N95 masks. I believe it is a struggle to get them in a hospital setting for staff looking after patients with presumed or confirmed COVID19.

I don't think they do.

But there is absolutely no shortage of N95 masks.

IF the HSE are struggling to get them, that is HSE incompetence, nothing more.

is_that_so · 28-10-2020 05:51PM

JJJackal wrote: »

According to the Irish Times Article teachers want N95 masks. I believe it is a struggle to get them in a hospital setting for staff looking after patients with presumed or confirmed COVID19.

I do not think the general public will support teachers in this strike.

I also cannot see teachers actually going on strike - no pay etc

One of the other things mentioned in the article is the demand for the reversal of the pay differential for newer teachers. It doesn't strike me as the time to be looking at that at all.

JJJackal · 28-10-2020 05:51PM

Boggles wrote: »

I don't think they do.

But there is absolutely no shortage of N95 masks.

IF the HSE are struggling to get them, that is HSE incompetence, nothing more.

If everyone in the worlds suddenly wanted N95 masks lets say because there was a pandemic, and before the pandemic you were only making enough for 1% of the world to have one (but not have one everyday), the HSE not being able to acquire a full supply of these masks in an unprecedented situation is not incompetence. They are not made in Ireland (open to correction here). Granted, the longer the pandemic goes on, it is reasonable to think that supply will increase and if the HSE do not have enough it is incompetence - not sure we are at that stage just yet.

Newbie007 · 28-10-2020 05:52PM

Teachers do not want schools to close. They want a safer workplace and clarity whether they've been in contact with someone who has been deemed a positive case.

irishblessing · 28-10-2020 05:53PM

is_that_so wrote: »

One of the other things mentioned in the article is the demand for the reversal of the pay differential for newer teachers. It doesn't strike me as the time to be looking at that at all.

Is it not one of the reasons that people are leaving or not going into the profession though? It's demoralising or so I hear. Anyone in any company would feel the same, it's not just in education. And we badly need to beef up employment in that sector so I don't know, I think it's probably an important element.

khalessi · 28-10-2020 05:53PM

JJJackal wrote: »

If everyone in the worlds suddenly wanted N95 masks lets say because there was a pandemic, and before the pandemic you were only making enough for 1% of the world to have one (but not have one everyday), the HSE not being able to acquire a full supply of these masks in an unprecedented situation is not incompetence. They are not made in Ireland (open to correction here). Granted, the longer the pandemic goes on, it is reasonable to think that supply will increase and if the HSE do not have enough it is incompetence - not sure we are at that stage just yet.

You obviously dont understand bargaining, ask for one thing settle for another.

JJJackal · 28-10-2020 05:53PM

is_that_so wrote: »

One of the other things mentioned in the article is the demand for the reversal of the pay differential for newer teachers. It doesn't strike me as the time to be looking at that at all.

The point people will make here is you dont see healthcare staff or others using this pandemic to get equal pay with threat of strike.

I dont think strike is the way to go at this juncture

2ndcoming · 28-10-2020 05:53PM

is_that_so wrote: »

One of the other things mentioned in the article is the demand for the reversal of the pay differential for newer teachers. It doesn't strike me as the time to be looking at that at all.

They have never stopped looking for that in fairness, it's what all their previous strikes were over. If they didn't include you'd have all the Denis O'Brien-ites crowing about how they aren't bothered about that anymore

JJJackal · 28-10-2020 05:54PM

khalessi wrote: »

You obviously dont understand bargaining, ask for one thing settle for another.

Presumably teachers main goal is to keep students safe? Presumably this is the priority request?

RoryMac · 28-10-2020 05:54PM

JJJackal wrote: »

According to the Irish Times Article teachers want N95 masks. I believe it is a struggle to get them in a hospital setting for staff looking after patients with presumed or confirmed COVID19.

I do not think the general public will support teachers in this strike.

I also cannot see teachers actually going on strike - no pay etc

No they voted against that proposal in the ballot. It's hard to argue with the proposals they did vote for but I think it was a mistake by them to include a vote about the pay for teachers after 2010, it will be used against them by sections to play down their overall point

2ndcoming · 28-10-2020 05:55PM

JJJackal wrote: »

The point people will make here is you dont see healthcare staff or others using this pandemic to get equal pay with threat of strike.

I dont think strike is the way to go at this juncture

Healthcare staff signed up to do this exact job. No one else did.

The equal pay issue should have been dealt with years ago.

Smacruairi · 28-10-2020 05:55PM

JJJackal wrote: »

If everyone in the worlds suddenly wanted N95 masks lets say because there was a pandemic, and before the pandemic you were only making enough for 1% of the world to have one (but not have one everyday), the HSE not being able to acquire a full supply of these masks in an unprecedented situation is not incompetence. They are not made in Ireland (open to correction here). Granted, the longer the pandemic goes on, it is reasonable to think that supply will increase and if the HSE do not have enough it is incompetence - not sure we are at that stage just yet.

I know you're trolling, but if you had bothered to read the results you would see that no, teachers don't want those masks provided to all the school community.

Sigh. I even uploaded it as a picture for those who can't focus for more than 11 seconds. But nah.

Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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