Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

Cluedo Monopoly · 27-10-2020 10:29AM

polesheep wrote: »

I think when a vaccine comes, regardless of how much or how little it delivers, things will rapidly return to normal.

Yes, I doubt the vaccine will be very effective but by then people and governments will have had enough and just move on.
And many wont bother taking it. It will be like a less effective flu shot.

pgj2015 · 27-10-2020 10:29AM

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

I met someone today that works in a large gift shop. The staff and owners are furious that they have to shut down again. They said they spent a fortune and lots of unpaid overtime getting the shop Covid ready just to be shut down again. He thinks they will go under if not opened on Dec 1. He seemed quite depressed to be honest and worried about the future. Those in non essential retail are in a lot of pain.

If you want to support Irish businesses. saw it advertised on Ireland am this morning.

https://www.guaranteedirishgifts.ie/

bear1 · 27-10-2020 11:38AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Any co op should have them, they'll be fully open.

It was more if these would be considered essential items. Generally Currys or Tesco would have them but haven't seen it

Graces7 · 27-10-2020 11:43AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's easy for someone like yourself to quote soundbites as, as you remind us regularly, you live on an island in a small isolated community on a pension. You're a literal outlier in this situation.

It's not so easy for those who still rely on work or their business to make ends meet, and who are struggling financially, socially and mentally as a result of restrictions being imposed on them for something that presents little to no risk to the vast majority of them or those they come into contact with.

Absolutely should you "stay safe, stay well, stay strong and stay home" - but the rest of us need to be able to get on with things with as little interference as possible - if for no other reason to allow you to continue to live in safety.

A revealing response.

None of this is about personal choice. It is about respecting the rules and the laws of the society we are privileged to live in, for the reasons the govt and health authorities have set down. About respecting all to prevent more illness and deaths

Many of us would love to go shopping; to visit others. But we desist as that risks spreading covid-19 . What deters most is the folk out there who should not be out there.

I have bolded the fallacy central to all your arguments. And it is a fallacy as every medical authority in the world knows; especially in those countries where the govt did not act as swiftly or efficiently as Ireland did.

Plumbthedepths · 27-10-2020 11:49AM

Graces7 wrote: »

A revealing response.

None of this is about personal choice. It is about respecting the rules and the laws of the society we are privileged to live in, for the reasons the govt and health authorities have set down. About respecting all to prevent more illness and deaths

Many of us would love to go shopping; to visit others. But we desist as that risks spreading covid-19 . What deters most is the folk out there who should not be out there.

I have bolded the fallacy central to all your arguments. And it is a fallacy as every medical authority in the world knows; especially in those countries where the govt did not act as swiftly or efficiently as Ireland did.

Hopefully your pension and benefits won't be reduced when the bill is presented to pay for this.

27-10-2020 12:00PM

I wouldn't be so sure that a vaccine will end this in Ireland. We've consistently had the longest and harshest of restrictions in Europe and I fully expect we'll be the last in the world to get back to normal. Probably with a recession much worse than anywhere else.

But I can't wait for the day when normality returns!

What I am most looking forward to is having fun/freedom and knowing that the people calling for the army and water cannons etc will have to live in a world where it is no longer outrageous to go to Glendalough or have a few pints.

Jim_Hodge · 27-10-2020 12:01PM

I don't like the restrictions but I see why they must be at present. Not seeing family or hugging my grandchildren is draining. Not getting out and about or being able to relax with a nice coffee or beer in town is not great for mental health. But what gets my goat is people pontificating about the greater good and the national interest when they don't have to pay the price, don't go anywhere much any way, and haven't really seen their lives greatly affected. I'm lucky being retired and my pension is unaffected but this is hard on younger people and I appreciate that.

27-10-2020 12:02PM

Graces7 wrote: »

A revealing response.

None of this is about personal choice. It is about respecting the rules and the laws of the society we are privileged to live in, for the reasons the govt and health authorities have set down. About respecting all to prevent more illness and deaths

Many of us would love to go shopping; to visit others. But we desist as that risks spreading covid-19 . What deters most is the folk out there who should not be out there.

I have bolded the fallacy central to all your arguments. And it is a fallacy as every medical authority in the world knows; especially in those countries where the govt did not act as swiftly or efficiently as Ireland did.

Not you though. You have stated you live in isolation so lockdown really doesn't impact you.

As others have said, hopefully your pension is not cut.

pgj2015 · 27-10-2020 12:20PM

I dont think anyone wants the restrictions but some people are just grown up enough to know they are needed. others are idiots like the fools who were running that shebeen near athy and the fools that drank there.

_Kaiser_ · 27-10-2020 12:21PM

Graces7 wrote: »

A revealing response.

None of this is about personal choice. It is about respecting the rules and the laws of the society we are privileged to live in, for the reasons the govt and health authorities have set down. About respecting all to prevent more illness and deaths

Many of us would love to go shopping; to visit others. But we desist as that risks spreading covid-19 . What deters most is the folk out there who should not be out there.

I have bolded the fallacy central to all your arguments. And it is a fallacy as every medical authority in the world knows; especially in those countries where the govt did not act as swiftly or efficiently as Ireland did.

Ah you're back...

The actual numbers would back me up and this has been shown multiple times on this thread by others as well as HSE/NPHET representatives conceding the flaws in how their reports are calculated when questioned in the Oireacteas Committees.

Add to that then the historical (and ongoing) inability of the HSE and Government to deal with the problems in our health service, and you somehow feel that their pronouncements on this issue can be taken at face value?

But let's say you're right... the cases have been increasing for weeks on end now, yet - even allowing for incubation periods - deaths are still in single digits. How do you explain that one? If it's as dangerous as you say, why are there not dozens or even hundreds of deaths every week?
It's generally accepted that most people are only loosely complying with the restrictions at this point and that buy-in has fallen significantly from where it was in March so surely we should be seeing significantly increased death given our health service is (always) teetering on the brink, no?

I'll answer for you.. because stats aside, the observed reality on the ground is that the overwhelming majority of people who get this virus in Ireland will recover just fine.

What you have posted above is an example of someone who probably doesn't look far beyond RTE for their updates, and who is secure in the knowledge that any decisions taken probably won't affect them anyway given your literal outlier status.

dalyboy · 27-10-2020 12:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure that a vaccine will end this in Ireland. We've consistently had the longest and harshest of restrictions in Europe and I fully expect we'll be the last in the world to get back to normal. Probably with a recession much worse than anywhere else.

But I can't wait for the day when normality returns!

What I am most looking forward to is having fun/freedom and knowing that the people calling for the army and water cannons etc will have to live in a world where it is no longer outrageous to go to Glendalough or have a few pints.

Ive come to the conclusion that it’s kind of irrelevant how long it takes for Ireland to emerge from this and get to back normal.

We need to watch other countries and their reopening of their economies and societies. They will be options we can attain simply by boarding a plane and waving away at the nut house from 20,000 feet below. Emigration will be the “new normal”.

CruelSummer · 27-10-2020 12:33PM

I recently followed Ivor Cummins on twitter - he has some interesting tweets & some a bit out there. New Zealand has been held as a poster boy in this Covid response.
However this recent tweet in relation to New Zealand setting up quarantine camps - where people who test positive for Covid are forcibly separated from their family & removed to...and are only released from said ‘quarantine’ facility if they agree to be tested or test negative...
Imprisonment without trail...use of unreliable PCR test as a basis for this, families separated...how can anyone stand over this kind of behaviour?

https://twitter.com/berniespofforth/status/1320860041910591489?s=21

dalyboy · 27-10-2020 12:42PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

I recently followed Ivor Cummins on twitter - he has some interesting tweets & some a bit out there. New Zealand has been held as a poster boy in this Covid response.
However this recent tweet in relation to New Zealand setting up quarantine camps - where people who test positive for Covid are forcibly separated from their family & removed to...and are only released from said ‘quarantine’ facility if they agree to be tested or test negative...
Imprisonment without trail...use of unreliable PCR test as a basis for this, families separated...how can anyone stand over this kind of behaviour?

https://twitter.com/berniespofforth/status/1320860041910591489?s=21

Internment on the strength of a test thats proved to show up “old” covid infection up to 78 days AFTER 1st infection.

CruelSummer · 27-10-2020 12:58PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

I recently followed Ivor Cummins on twitter - he has some interesting tweets & some a bit out there. New Zealand has been held as a poster boy in this Covid response.
However this recent tweet in relation to New Zealand setting up quarantine camps - where people who test positive for Covid are forcibly separated from their family & removed to...and are only released from said ‘quarantine’ facility if they agree to be tested or test negative...
Imprisonment without trail...use of unreliable PCR test as a basis for this, families separated...how can anyone stand over this kind of behaviour?

https://twitter.com/berniespofforth/status/1320860041910591489?s=21

I've actually looked across other websites in relation to the New Zealand Covid approach, and cannot see anything in relation to this. It could be a reference to their previous policy over the summer where they used hotels to separate Covid positive cases from the Community and incoming travellers also, I'm not sure.

KennisWhale · 27-10-2020 01:01PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

I recently followed Ivor Cummins on twitter - he has some interesting tweets & some a bit out there. New Zealand has been held as a poster boy in this Covid response.
However this recent tweet in relation to New Zealand setting up quarantine camps - where people who test positive for Covid are forcibly separated from their family & removed to...and are only released from said ‘quarantine’ facility if they agree to be tested or test negative...
Imprisonment without trail...use of unreliable PCR test as a basis for this, families separated...how can anyone stand over this kind of behaviour?

https://twitter.com/berniespofforth/status/1320860041910591489?s=21

We're seeing it all now from the covid fanatics; puritanism, prohibition and forcible detention.

FintanMcluskey · 27-10-2020 01:07PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

I recently followed Ivor Cummins on twitter - he has some interesting tweets & some a bit out there. New Zealand has been held as a poster boy in this Covid response.
However this recent tweet in relation to New Zealand setting up quarantine camps - where people who test positive for Covid are forcibly separated from their family & removed to...and are only released from said ‘quarantine’ facility if they agree to be tested or test negative...
Imprisonment without trail...use of unreliable PCR test as a basis for this, families separated...how can anyone stand over this kind of behaviour?

https://twitter.com/berniespofforth/status/1320860041910591489?s=21

NZ and Australia will be fascinating to observe over the next while

NZ has essentially economically obliterated itself chasing the unicorn.

Australia likewise has burnt its relationship with China(its largest export market) over the suspected origination of the Covid virus.

Micky 32 · 27-10-2020 01:35PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What I am most looking forward to is having fun/freedom and knowing that the people calling for the army and water cannons etc will have to live in a world where it is no longer outrageous to go to Glendalough or have a few pints.

When it’s over the same cohort will be calling for your freedoms to be curtailed with more restrictions because of climate change boloxogy , wait until you see.....

drunkmonkey · 27-10-2020 01:42PM

Listening to Luke O'Neill this morning, he mentioned Slovakia are testing the whole population from age 10 up over the course of two weeks, they're pretty much the same size as us.
Without a vaccine that gives them a good shot at normality quickly.
Certainly something we should be doing.

8k71ps · 27-10-2020 01:43PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

NZ and Australia will be fascinating to observe over the next while

NZ has essentially economically obliterated itself chasing the unicorn.

Australia likewise has burnt its relationship with China(its largest export market) over the suspected origination of the Covid virus.

Considering the state all the economies of Europe are in (including the Swedes) I don't think that they're really comparable. NZ has clearly had less lasting economic damage than any EU country. Really from what we can see the only workable model in the long run to return consumer and business confidence is something akin to South Korea, China or NZ / Australia. Compared to the apocalyptic economic damage that would result from letting it rip through the population, spending a large portion of the budget on health with small budget cuts elsewhere is really the only option.

A "ah sure **** it" covid policy will lead to long term health repercussions which we won't be able to afford, deaths, and a lock-down in effect due to people being afraid of the rate of infection, permanently closing more sectors via taxes/huge drops in aggregate demand compared to controlling the pandemic properly.

funnydoggy · 27-10-2020 01:44PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Listening to Luke O'Neill this morning, he mentioned Slovakia are testing the whole population from age 10 up over the course of two weeks, they're pretty much the same size as us.
Without a vaccine that gives them a good shot at normality quickly.
Certainly something we should be doing.

I can bet NPHET or the CMO will find some problem with the idea like they always do.

bush · 27-10-2020 01:45PM

funnydoggy wrote: »

I can bet NPHET or the CMO will find some problem with the idea like they always do.

They cant think beyond lockdown

27-10-2020 01:50PM

Wow!!! Look at the last 2 pages of discussion over on the main thread.

Suggestions that 45% of hospitalisations are in hospital WITH Covid. In other words, are not in hospital because of Covid.

I need to look into this some more and see what information is available.

I am not normally one for conspiracy theories but it’s so clear that we are not getting the full picture. Figures are completely manipulated to show the situation as much worse than it is.

drunkmonkey · 27-10-2020 01:52PM

funnydoggy wrote: »

I can bet NPHET or the CMO will find some problem with the idea like they always do.

The problem is it will become quite apparent very quickly that 100% of new cases are related to Travel. They may need to get control of our borders which they seem unwilling to do.

There's absolutely no reason for locking down the whole country, we could let countys back to normal in 14 days, Bring mass testing in on a county by county basis. Free up capacity to do that by testing people who present as sick. 2 days worth of testing would get Leitrim out of all restrictions, pubs open etc.

Silentcorner · 27-10-2020 01:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Wow!!! Look at the last 2 pages of discussion over on the main thread.

Suggestions that 45% of hospitalisations are in hospital WITH Covid. In other words, are not in hospital because of Covid.

I need to look into this some more and see what information is available.

I am not normally one for conspiracy theories but it’s so clear that we are not getting the full picture. Figures are completely manipulated to show the situation as much worse than it is.

How many more got covid whilst in hospital...you won't get that figure either.

We have probably 12,000 people in hospital wards, there's a strong chance a percentage of those will get the virus there, as what happened a relative of mine.

FintanMcluskey · 27-10-2020 01:55PM

8k71ps wrote: »

Considering the state all the economies of Europe are in (including the Swedes) I don't think that they're really comparable. NZ has clearly had less lasting economic damage than any EU country. Really from what we can see the only workable model in the long run to return consumer and business confidence is something akin to South Korea, China or NZ / Australia. Compared to the apocalyptic economic damage that would result from letting it rip through the population, spending a large portion of the budget on health with small budget cuts elsewhere is really the only option.

A "ah sure **** it" covid policy will lead to long term health repercussions which we won't be able to afford, deaths, and a lock-down in effect due to people being afraid of the rate of infection, permanently closing more sectors via taxes/huge drops in aggregate demand compared to controlling the pandemic properly.

This regularly happens.

Nobody suggests a **** it policy, have no idea where that repeatedly comes from.

Social distancing, mask wearing and hand washing.

Are those a waste of time?

Ireland has decided none of those are adequate and must be coupled with suppression of socialisation and the worst job losses in Europe.

charlie14 · 27-10-2020 01:59PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The problem is it will become quite apparent very quickly that 100% of new cases are related to Travel. They may need to get control of our borders which they seem unwilling to do.

There's absolutely no reason for locking down the whole country, we could let countys back to normal in 14 days, Bring mass testing in on a county by county basis. Free up capacity to do that by testing people who present as sick. 2 days worth of testing would get Leitrim out of all restrictions, pubs open etc.

But what do you then do as regards Leitrim, block all entry to Leitrim to ensure there are no further infections ?

normanoffside · 27-10-2020 02:00PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Wow!!! Look at the last 2 pages of discussion over on the main thread.

Suggestions that 45% of hospitalisations are in hospital WITH Covid. In other words, are not in hospital because of Covid.

I need to look into this some more and see what information is available.

I am not normally one for conspiracy theories but it’s so clear that we are not getting the full picture. Figures are completely manipulated to show the situation as much worse than it is.

45% actually acquires it in Hospital.
Of the other 55% some are in with it and others Because of it.

drunkmonkey · 27-10-2020 02:14PM

charlie14 wrote: »

But what do you then do as regards Leitrim, block all entry to Leitrim to ensure there are no further infections ?

Pretty much, as more counties are tested they can join leitrim, we'd have 12 plus counties fully open to each other by Christmas.
Or else we do what Slovakia is doing and test the entire country over two weeks.

charlie14 · 27-10-2020 02:27PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Pretty much, as more counties are tested they can join leitrim, we'd have 12 plus counties fully open to each other by Christmas.
Or else we do what Slovakia is doing and test the entire country over two weeks.

Leitrim alone is bordered by 6 other counties with one of them Fermanagh being in Northern Ireland.
We could not seal off Leitrim alone, never mind other counties if they became clear from those bordering them.

TRANQUILLO · 27-10-2020 02:36PM

average_runner wrote: »

A friend of mine said things were getting back to normal there. He attended the AFL final on Sat, while restrictions, it was still good.
Also he is runner and had no issues down there or has anyone in his club

Not what i am hearing from my mates who worked for QANTAS living in Melbourne. Dan Andrews has the place ruined. Completely abnormal from what im hearing. They cant even go to the countryside.

Maybe your pal lives in a different state?

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings