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Ear to the ground

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    #182
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,662 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Say my name wrote: »
    But if we restore wetlands we increase methane emissions.
    Which is never ever mentioned just cos...natural.

    On a co2 point for reducing the 410 figure to back down below 300. We need the fastest growing plants this planet can muster in the areas where they grow fastest.
    This point is never mentioned either just again. ..natural.
    Just somewhere for people to walk on bank holidays is all people really want in this country and tell themselves I'm stopping climate change.

    Not so much in our temperate climate - also Methane spends only a very short time in the upper atmosphere compared to CO2. In any case there are a long list of other good reason for restoring wetlands - including flood protection, buffering water quality/supply, boosting fish stocks, biodiversity, tourism etc.


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    #183
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Say my name wrote: »
    But if we restore wetlands we increase methane emissions.
    Which is never ever mentioned just cos...natural.

    Interesting, where would one find out more?


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    #184
    NcdJd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭NcdJd


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Its a very sad state of affairs which I blame largely on the old CAP model that undermined sustainable mixed farming and pushed specialization and intensification. DAFM and other state agencies have blood on their hands too as they continue to relentlessly push that model to the extent that any sector outside of Big Dairy has been more or less forgotten about by the likes of Teagasc et al:(

    Funny thing you say about Teagasc… your dead right... I won't go into too much detail here but basically when there's advise needed about a crop or any sort of pest who do they ring ? They don't ring a Teagasc number but a mobile number...


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    #185
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Not so much in our temperate climate - also Methane spends only a very short time in the upper atmosphere compared to CO2. In any case there are a long list of other good reason for restoring wetlands - including flood protection, buffering water quality/supply, boosting fish stocks, biodiversity, tourism etc.

    But the environmentalists answer is that that methane is subsequently turned into co2, is it not?


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    #186
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Interesting, where would one find out more?

    Little bit mentioned here..

    http://www.ipcc.ie/a-to-z-peatlands/peatland-action-plan/climate-change-and-irish-peatlands/

    But just look up how methane is formed.


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    #187
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,662 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But the environmentalists answer is that that methane is subsequently turned into co2, is it not?

    Well if you read the IPCC link that SMN just posted, the likes of Bogs soak up and store vast amounts of CO2 so overall they remove it from the atmosphere.


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    #188
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    _Brian wrote: »
    90% of the beef produced on farms where 60-70% male nonprofit at all on the beef. So why is it being produced from a farmers perspective. It’s great for Goodman and contest we produce so much beef because you can be dam sure he’s been getting richer in it. But purely from a farmers perspective what odds that we export it when so many aren’t making any profit - busy fools is the term used in other businesses when your working at something Amd earning nothing by doing it.

    Well the vast majority of beef farmers are part time farmers who have off farm income, so don’t have to make a profit to put food on the table

    There’s a big difference in mentality between a fella who has the food on the table and the mortgage paid before he looks at the farm and someone who has to live off the farm and repay loans


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    #189
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    _Brian wrote: »
    Did I say I wasn’t making a profit ?

    We’ve worked our system round over the years, including dropping
    Numbers to a stage where were in the black.

    Not by enough but we’re there.

    When we took over it was a typical loss making small suckler farm on marginal land.

    We’ve reduced chemical inputs and increased and diversified biodiversity while doing it.

    So it doesn’t really matter if you make a profit on it or not?? Break even be good enough??


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    #190
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Say my name wrote: »
    But if we restore wetlands we increase methane emissions.
    Which is never ever mentioned just cos...natural.

    On a co2 point for reducing the 410 figure to back down below 300. We need the fastest growing plants this planet can muster in the areas where they grow fastest.
    This point is never mentioned either just again. ..natural.
    Just somewhere for people to walk on bank holidays is all people really want in this country and tell themselves I'm stopping climate change.

    This is it exactly

    People don’t really care or understand the environment but they think it will make a nice Sunday drive - in the petrol car of course as one couldn’t risk the electric running out of battery in the wilds


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    #191
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,662 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Panch18 wrote: »
    So it doesn’t really matter if you make a profit on it or not?? Break even be good enough??

    Would most Dairy lads be happy to loose their CAP money on that basis??


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    #192
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Not so much in our temperate climate - also Methane spends only a very short time in the upper atmosphere compared to CO2. In any case there are a long list of other good reason for restoring wetlands - including flood protection, buffering water quality/supply, boosting fish stocks, biodiversity, tourism etc.

    So we can increase methane in the Atmosphere if it comes from Re-wetting wetlands, but cows cows are bad, we need to reduce their number


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    #193
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Well if you read the IPCC link that SMN just posted, the likes of Bogs soak up and store vast amounts of CO2 so overall they remove it from the atmosphere.

    Has there ever been a comparison of carbon stored vs methane released of irish bogs?

    I know methane release in the warmed up arctic bogs is a huge concern.

    In a satellite methane measurement it showed a rise from the irish Midlands up.


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    #194
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,516 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Panch18 wrote: »
    So it doesn’t really matter if you make a profit on it or not?? Break even be good enough??

    Of course it has to make a profit, it would go broke otherwise.

    This conversation isn’t about me specifically justifying what I’m at.

    This is about a wider direction for all farms.

    What I’ve suggested is a change in the criteria that receiving money happens on. Aligning the spend of public money to better represent what society needs.


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    #195
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,209 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Panch18 wrote: »
    This is it exactly

    People don’t really care or understand the environment but they think it will make a nice Sunday drive - in the petrol car of course as one couldn’t risk the electric running out of battery in the wilds

    Ah no they'll be driving electric.

    It'll be the esb who'll be driving diesel in case they run out.


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    #196
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,662 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Panch18 wrote: »
    So we can increase methane in the Atmosphere if it comes from Re-wetting wetlands, but cows cows are bad, we need to reduce their number

    Methane in an Irish context is not a huge issue here, where it be cows or bogs - CO2 much bigger issue(In Ireland case any ways). In fact I would b far more concerned about Ammonia emmissions compared to CO2 or methane in an Irish context regarding the environment and human health


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    #197
    Coralcoras
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Coralcoras


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Its a very sad state of affairs which I blame largely on the old CAP model that undermined sustainable mixed farming and pushed specialization and intensification. DAFM and other state agencies have blood on their hands too as they continue to relentlessly push that model to the extent that any sector outside of Big Dairy has been more or less forgotten about by the likes of Teagasc et al:(

    Their *Teagasc* research seminars are all about grass production and dairy sector...it’s miserable to attend them when I’m from the west and have a soft spot for nature.


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    #198
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,662 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Say my name wrote: »
    Has there ever been a comparison of carbon stored vs methane released of irish bogs?

    I know methane release in the warmed up arctic bogs is a huge concern.

    In a satellite methane measurement it showed a rise from the irish Midlands up.

    Some work ongoing on Tommy Earley's organic place on a raised bog next to Lough Allen in Leitrim - I beleive the IPCC and UCD are involved


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    #199
    Coralcoras
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Coralcoras


    Say my name wrote: »
    How do you know others make a loss?

    National Farm Survey results by farm enterprise type is a good place to look for farm performance. Gross margin doesn’t include labour as a cost... you can work it out yourself.


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    #200
    Coralcoras
    Registered Users Posts: 80 ✭✭Coralcoras


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Interesting, where would one find out more?

    Google scholar for a review is a good place to start. There’s a wealth of information and the abstracts are free, short and succinct. I usually skip straight to the conclusions and read on if interested.


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    #201
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Ah yes the loss making part time beef farmer, with his new John Deere, massively extravagant winter accommodation and every farm implement that has ever been manufactured.

    And I don’t blame them, when paying higher tax from the other income it makes sense in many ways

    But don’t let it get in the way of reality


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    #202
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Coralcoras wrote: »
    National Farm Survey results by farm enterprise type is a good place to look for farm performance. Gross margin doesn’t include labour as a cost... you can work it out yourself.

    I disagree. I hate to be a bore but I'm going to be :pac:

    If a farm is constrained in it's activities by an artificial creation, say a Natura 2000 designation, then it follows the return from that enterprise will be artificially low.

    I'm not saying that explains all low earners but figures can be massaged in different ways to reflect different things on different farms.


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    #203
    Dinzee Conlee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I disagree. I hate to be a bore but I'm going to be :pac:

    If a farm is constrained in it's activities by an artificial creation, say a Natura 2000 designation, then it follows the return from that enterprise will be artificially low.

    I'm not saying that explains all low earners but figures can be massaged in different ways to reflect different things on different farms.

    Surely the majority of farms surveyed wouldn’t have such constraints?
    I acknowledge such constraints could theoretically affect the results - but would it be enough of a sample size to dramatically affect the outcome?
    I don’t believe so...


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    #204
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Dinzee Conlee wrote: »
    Surely the majority of farms surveyed wouldn’t have such constraints?
    I acknowledge such constraints could theoretically affect the results - but would it be enough of a sample size to dramatically affect the outcome?
    I don’t believe so...

    It depends on which sector or why you're mining the information. The point I'm making is just because information comes from Source A or Source B doesn't automatically reflect it's reliability.


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    #205
    Dinzee Conlee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭Dinzee Conlee


    Panch18 wrote: »
    Well the vast majority of beef farmers are part time farmers who have off farm income, so don’t have to make a profit to put food on the table

    There’s a big difference in mentality between a fella who has the food on the table and the mortgage paid before he looks at the farm and someone who has to live off the farm and repay loans

    100% agree with your last statement...

    But, that doesn’t mean the status quo around farm payments should be maintained purely to keep you living the life you like... :(

    I know that’s a bit **** to say, but it’s the truth...


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    #206
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    Dinzee Conlee wrote: »
    100% agree with your last statement...

    But, that doesn’t mean the status quo around farm payments should be maintained purely to keep you living the life you like... :(

    I know that’s a bit **** to say, but it’s the truth...

    I never said the status quo should be maintained

    And anyway it hasn’t. This is a total misconception. Loads of fellas have seen massive cuts in their payments over the years, I know that ours has been cut by a lot of thousands. Then other lads who are young farmers etc have gotten payments.


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    #207
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    What is clear is that people, including on here, don’t want “farmers” any more, and a main contributing reason for it is that they have an unlimited supply of cheap food on their table, which nowadays they don’t even need to step outside their door, some clown will even come and stack their cupboards

    What they want is grounds keepers who keep the countryside in a way that they THINK is environmentally friendly. To hell with whatever progressive farmers have done for the last 30-50 years

    I’m going to create a new word to replace farmers in the dictionary - environmenters


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    #208
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,516 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Panch18 wrote: »
    What is clear is that people, including on here, don’t want “farmers” any more, and a main contributing reason for it is that they have an unlimited supply of cheap food on their table, which nowadays they don’t even need to step outside their door, some clown will even come and stack their cupboards

    What they want is grounds keepers who keep the countryside in a way that they THINK is environmentally friendly. To hell with whatever progressive farmers have done for the last 30-50 years

    I’m going to create a new word to replace farmers in the dictionary - environmenters

    There’s very few jobs that can go on forever without changing in one direction or the other. Particularly as you specifically say you can’t farm without these public supports, then there will be an increasing shift in the requirements to farm AND receive these supports.
    I haven’t seen anyone here saying farming should or could be done away with. But how farming happens under cap payments is changing and will continue to change, Only the rate of change is the unknown, I would have it happen quicker than it currently is, but it will change in time irrespective of my or your desires.


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    #209
    wrangler
    Registered Users Posts: 11,090 ✭✭✭✭wrangler


    _Brian wrote: »
    There’s very few jobs that can go on forever without changing in one direction or the other. Particularly as you specifically say you can’t farm without these public supports, then there will be an increasing shift in the requirements to farm AND receive these supports.
    I haven’t seen anyone here saying farming should or could be done away with. But how farming happens under cap payments is changing and will continue to change, Only the rate of change is the unknown, I would have it happen quicker than it currently is, but it will change in time irrespective of my or your desires.

    Plenty of experts were saying the same as you pre the last CAP reform and see how that turned out.All they got was the ''greening'' Common sense will probably prevail again and idealists will have to wait another 8 - 10year


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    #210
    tanko
    Registered Users Posts: 9,229 ✭✭✭tanko


    Panch18 wrote: »
    I never said the status quo should be maintained

    And anyway it hasn’t. This is a total misconception. Loads of fellas have seen massive cuts in their payments over the years, I know that ours has been cut by a lot of thousands. Then other lads who are young farmers etc have gotten payments.

    Oh dear, the cheek of those young farmers get some money off the grey haired pensioners with their 50K plus payments.
    How dare they.


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    #211
    Panch18
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭Panch18


    tanko wrote: »
    Oh dear, the cheek of those young farmers get some money off the grey haired pensioners with their 50K plus payments.
    How dare they.

    So do you have a contribution to make or will you be sticking with just the smart ass comment??


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