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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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    #8222
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,510 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Kleyn was called up just weeks out from the World Cup having not earned a shot and made the plane, not long after being qualified.

    JGP earned his shot almost a year after qualifying through good performances and playing better than previous incumbents in McGrath, Marmion and Cooney.

    There’s the difference. There was genuine outrage over Kleyn because there was nothing to suggest he had earned a place in the Rugby World Cup. JGP had to actually work to earn his chance.

    You can bitch and moan about the media not covering it all you want but this is why. Kleyn going to the World Cup was a baffling call at the time, JGP playing back-up to Murray isn’t.



    Naw lots of the articles were based on his SA origin, and your missing the point I’m not having an issue with the lack of coverage, I dont think any Of the project players should have received the attention they did.

    Hopefully this is the end of it, but I doubt it.


    https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2019/if-i-was-devin-toner-i-will-be-asking-world-rugby-for-answers-vice-chairman-pichot-weighs-into-selection-debate-38458764.html

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/49568247

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/02/devin-toner-shock-omission-from-ireland-rugby-union-world-cup-squad


    https://extra.ie/2019/09/03/sport/rugby/picking-kleyn-is-wrong


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    #8223
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,510 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    Oh. You're going down soume weird provincial bias route. Count me out of any and all future discussion please. I wish to unsubscribe from your news letter.



    I don’t do a newsletter and your missing the point. It’s a criticism of the rugby media.


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    #8224
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,510 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Making an issue out of the fact that there is no issue.


    That's a new one on me, I must admit.



    Only highlighting that this week it wasn’t an issue for the media, when the selection of CJ, Aki, Payne and Kleyn was.

    Maybe in a few weeks it will be again when James Lowe is selected.


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    #8225
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    There's a few genuine reasons why there's less media coverage. Kleyn arguably didn't deserve his place. Toner has been a stalwart. It was for the world cup. The same can't be said for JGP. It doesn't have the same optics for the seagulls.


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    #8226
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,191 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Naw lots of the articles were based on his SA origin, and your missing the point I’m not having an issue with the lack of coverage, I dont think any Of the project players should have received the attention they did.

    Hopefully this is the end of it, but I doubt it.


    https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2019/if-i-was-devin-toner-i-will-be-asking-world-rugby-for-answers-vice-chairman-pichot-weighs-into-selection-debate-38458764.html

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/49568247

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/sep/02/devin-toner-shock-omission-from-ireland-rugby-union-world-cup-squad


    https://extra.ie/2019/09/03/sport/rugby/picking-kleyn-is-wrong

    The first three of those articles are all directly concentrated on him being selected ahead of Toner. In fact, they're largely based on reporting of Pichot's comments at the time rather than any opinion based pieces.

    The only one that is focused on the whole project piece and going after Kleyn is the last one which is by Hugh Farrelly who is hardly considered a respected rugby journalist.

    Seems like you're looking to be offended and more upset that JGP hasn't endured any grief.


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    #8227
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,510 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Buer wrote: »
    The first three of those articles are all directly concentrated on him being selected ahead of Toner. In fact, they're largely based on reporting of Pichot's comments at the time rather than any opinion based pieces.

    The only one that is focused on the whole project piece and going after Kleyn is the last one which is by Hugh Farrelly who is hardly considered a respected rugby journalist.

    Seems like you're looking to be offended and more upset that JGP hasn't endured any grief.



    It’s clear that you are bringing bias to this unfortunately as I’m not referring to Kleyn alone. Every project player has received media attention up until last week about their inclusion.


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    #8228
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,191 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    It’s clear that you are bringing bias to this unfortunately as I’m not referring to Kleyn alone. Every project player has received media attention up until last week about their inclusion.

    Yes, they have. Players from all provinces have had it. But your claim was made on the basis of "massive" coverage of Kleyn specifically, not others so of course that's the focus of the discussion. You set the parameters of the discussion.

    If you want to change them, that's fine. The reasons others have given are quite applicable as to why JGP hasn't had the same coverage i.e. his form is deserving, he has bided his time and been IQ for quite some time and the level of coverage at the moment overall across the game is far diminished in comparison to previous seasons.

    Let's hope there's a scathing article about JGP this week in response to his debut and it puts your mind at ease.


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    #8229
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Clegg wrote: »
    The only problem I had with Kleyn's selection is the fact that he's not actually that good.

    Agree with this. He qualified, was absolutely dire in the warmups, and still managed to get in the squad. Was a dreadful selection.


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    #8230
    lawrencesummers
    Registered Users Posts: 8,510 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    Buer wrote: »
    Yes, they have. Players from all provinces have had it. But your claim was made on the basis of "massive" coverage of Kleyn specifically, not others so of course that's the focus of the discussion. You set the parameters of the discussion.

    If you want to change them, that's fine. The reasons others have given are quite applicable as to why JGP hasn't had the same coverage i.e. his form is deserving, he has bided his time and been IQ for quite some time and the level of coverage at the moment overall across the game is far diminished in comparison to previous seasons.

    Let's hope there's a scathing article about JGP this week in response to his debut and it puts your mind at ease.



    Am I going to have to spell it out for you for the sixth time that I have no issue with his selection?

    Is saying something 5 times not enough for you?


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    #8231
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,021 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Am I going to have to spell it out for you for the sixth time that I have no issue with his selection?

    Is saying something 5 times not enough for you?

    You just want someone else (the media in this instance) to have an issue with it instead?


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    #8232
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,191 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    lawrencesummers wrote: »
    Am I going to have to spell it out for you for the sixth time that I have no issue with his selection?

    Is saying something 5 times not enough for you?

    I've never said you do; not once. You have a problem with the lack of media coverage of it relative to previous players. Which is what we're discussing repeatedly and you're really not even trying to engage with.


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    #8233
    WhoamI2022
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭WhoamI2022


    Kleyn came in during the warm up's to the WC and ended up replacing a main stay in the Irish team for a number of years. The dropping of Toner was a huge story on its own. The fact he was replaced with Kleyn who had shown very little in the warm up games was a shock. The fact Kleyn was from another country was just a bit of sprinkle on top of the only story the journalist had...

    JGP is a minor story, the big story is Lowe playing for Ireland because he could potentially move Earls out of the starting team. Lets see how the press react then. If Lowe had played yesterday I am sure the press would be awash with it this morning


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    #8234
    WhoamI2022
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭WhoamI2022


    In regards to Murray. He was decent yesterday but I think Ireland need quicker ball. JGP gave us a view of what the team would be like with quicker ball. Now I do know it is skewed as he came on against a tired Italy team. Murray will not and should not be replaced for the France match. At the same time Ireland needs to move on quickly and to be honest JGP/Cooney/McGrath/Marmion are not the future.

    I would bring in Casey/Blade/Shanahan, give them all the chance to nail it down. Shanahan is an outside bet as he has little Pro 14 experience but he looked class at U20. When people say Ireland doesn't bring in young player and start them, isn't that what happened years ago when Murray just everyone to start, no reason why we can't again.

    For the France game, Murray to start. Anything else would be a huge shock.


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    #8235
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    Shanahan :pac:


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    #8236
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,191 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    There's 2 years separating Marmion, McGrath, Blade and Shanahan. If Marmion and McGrath aren't the future, the other two aren't either.

    Shanahan certainly isn't. Snappy pass but that's about it for him. Ulster fans are better placed to comment but I doubt they even want lining out in white let alone green.


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    #8237
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,815 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Quite like the idea of a quicker 9 coming on to finish the game. Contrasts well with Murray's more measured pace and could help us with chasing a lead. You can't deny that JGP had a very positive impact when he came on.

    On the topic of Murray I thought he had a decent game. Not near his best from a few years ago, but much better than anything I've seen in the last 18 months. One thing that I noticed though is his reluctance to snipe around the fringes these days. Ringrose doing it to great effect highlighted what we've been missing for a while. It puts opposition defence if the back foot immediately and has them scrambling. If all you do is pass or box kick the opposition finds it much easier to defend against.


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    #8238
    damianmcr
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭damianmcr


    Buer wrote: »
    There's 2 years separating Marmion, McGrath, Blade and Shanahan. If Marmion and McGrath aren't the future, the other two aren't either.

    Shanahan certainly isn't. Snappy pass but that's about it for him. Ulster fans are better placed to comment but I doubt they even want lining out in white let alone green.

    Yeah he's pish. I'd be shocked if one of our academy 9s don't oust him next season.


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    #8239
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,385 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    damianmcr wrote: »
    Yeah he's pish. I'd be shocked if one of our academy 9s don't oust him next season.

    We need Finlay's or possibly Doak to oust him by the end of this season. That's what Mathewson is here for - to smooth that transition.


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    #8240
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    Ireland have a number of key issues to address before 6N 2021.

    Loosehead prop

    Healy not going to go on forever, was fine yesterday but isn't going to get back to his best any time soon I feel.
    Ed Byrne is a squad player for Leinster, he isn't at the international standard at 27, unlikely he's going to break in now.
    Kilcoyne is a great player, struggling with inj, but is the most dynamic and aggressive with the carrys. His workrate might be his only issue.

    Behind them, who do we have? Porter to switch + EOS?

    Hooker

    An area of concern, behind only scrumhalf.

    Herring, a completely solid player but nothing more.
    Heffernan would be a good AIL player, he is not an international.
    Kelleher has bags of potential and has the size, lets hope he comes through.
    Dan Sheehan played well for Leinster against Zebre B, lets hope he can get some European experience.

    Outside of this, we have very little exciting talent coming through. Stewart and McKee the only others I've seen.

    Tighthead

    Furlong, a long term injury with no information doesn't sound good. We need him back definitely but lets hope it's not as serious as it sounds.
    Porter, has potential to be class and is playing very well bar Saracens scrumtime. Will only get better. Moving him to loosehead without another tighthead coming through would be an awful idea.
    John Ryan, not at the races.
    Bealham, needs to show more.
    Tom O'Toole is unproven at international level and will need to show more for Ulster.
    Marty Moore, hopeless. Looks like he needs oxygen tanks attached to him while he plays.

    A serious issue is arising here, we've been lucky that Furlong and Porter have emerged. I haven't seen much from any other tightheads to fill me with confidence.

    Scrumhalf

    I cannot fathom the reason why Casey is not in the squad now. He is going to be on the bench in 23, why are we delaying the inevitable. Marmion is not good enough and JGP is in good form at the moment, but he has been in good form before for Leinster and then fallen off.
    Cooney needs another look if he keeps playing well and Murray, Casey and Cooney should be the 3 nines going forward.
    The 9 situation is dire enough across the country, Fintan Gunne in Michaels is looking good but he's still in school.


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    #8241
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Casey will likely be capped during the nations cup in the Georgia game. For now let him develop by getting starts at Munster.


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    #8242
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Heffernan would be a good AIL player, he is not an international.

    Some of the stuff you see in here does make me chuckle.

    Is he even AIL level? Maybe "poison" ? :D


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    #8243
    Paul Smeenus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,385 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Ireland have a number of key issues to address before 6N 2021.

    Loosehead prop

    Healy not going to go on forever, was fine yesterday but isn't going to get back to his best any time soon I feel.
    Ed Byrne is a squad player for Leinster, he isn't at the international standard at 27, unlikely he's going to break in now.
    Kilcoyne is a great player, struggling with inj, but is the most dynamic and aggressive with the carrys. His workrate might be his only issue.

    Behind them, who do we have? Porter to switch + EOS?

    Hooker

    An area of concern, behind only scrumhalf.

    Herring, a completely solid player but nothing more.
    Heffernan would be a good AIL player, he is not an international.
    Kelleher has bags of potential and has the size, lets hope he comes through.
    Dan Sheehan played well for Leinster against Zebre B, lets hope he can get some European experience.

    Outside of this, we have very little exciting talent coming through. Stewart and McKee the only others I've seen.

    Tighthead

    Furlong, a long term injury with no information doesn't sound good. We need him back definitely but lets hope it's not as serious as it sounds.
    Porter, has potential to be class and is playing very well bar Saracens scrumtime. Will only get better. Moving him to loosehead without another tighthead coming through would be an awful idea.
    John Ryan, not at the races.
    Bealham, needs to show more.
    Tom O'Toole is unproven at international level and will need to show more for Ulster.
    Marty Moore, hopeless. Looks like he needs oxygen tanks attached to him while he plays.

    A serious issue is arising here, we've been lucky that Furlong and Porter have emerged. I haven't seen much from any other tightheads to fill me with confidence.

    Scrumhalf

    I cannot fathom the reason why Casey is not in the squad now. He is going to be on the bench in 23, why are we delaying the inevitable. Marmion is not good enough and JGP is in good form at the moment, but he has been in good form before for Leinster and then fallen off.
    Cooney needs another look if he keeps playing well and Murray, Casey and Cooney should be the 3 nines going forward.
    The 9 situation is dire enough across the country, Fintan Gunne in Michaels is looking good but he's still in school.

    O'Toole's injured - he was in the Six Nations squad initially - not as a development player, but a full berth. He doesn't need to show any more for Ulster. Wouldn't be surprised to see him called back up when back to full health.

    Moore shouldn't be in the international set-up, but he's been brilliant for Ulster since the restart, when many other players were poor. Your comment about oxygen tanks makes me think you're going off how he looks. Which admittedly, is like a massive cushion shoved into a fat guy's rugby jersey. But you're way off on how he's actually playing.

    Dunno why EOS hasn't been there or thereabouts. Better than Byrne, in my opinion, and younger.

    Ulster have two nines in the academy - Lewis Finlay, who was very good for the U20s, and Nathan Doak, who is very highly rated. No need to start getting childer from Michaels onto the hype machine just yet.

    I'm sure supporters of other provinces can volunteer some of their own talent that is flying below the radar.


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    #8244
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    Bazzo wrote: »
    Some of the stuff you see in here does make me chuckle.

    Is he even AIL level? Maybe "poison" ? :D

    Missed lift on POM that cost us 7 points and may cost us the championship if it goes to PD, scored a pushover try. Suppose that balances out. If he is our 2nd choice hooker, we are going to get emaciated by France. They bring on Camille Chat, we bring on Dave Heffernan. Do you not see the issue?

    If Herring goes down in the warmup, we have to rely on him which I most certainly do not.


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    #8245
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I was happy to see how well Bealham went. Been left in the cold far too long


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    #8246
    Bazzo
    Registered Users Posts: 7,047 ✭✭✭Bazzo


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Missed lift on POM that cost us 7 points and may cost us the championship if it goes to PD, scored a pushover try. Suppose that balances out. If he is our 2nd choice hooker, we are going to get emaciated by France. They bring on Camille Chat, we bring on Dave Heffernan. Do you not see the issue?

    If Herring goes down in the warmup, we have to rely on him which I most certainly do not.

    I've seen quite a bit of Heffernan and no I don't really see the issue. I'm laughing at the ridiculous notion you're claiming of him being a "good AIL player"


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    #8247
    FellasFellas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭FellasFellas


    Bazzo wrote: »
    I've seen quite a bit of Heffernan and no I don't really see the issue. I'm laughing at the ridiculous notion you're claiming of him being a "good AIL player"

    Good AIL players can make good provincial players too you know!

    Anyway, nothing on the missed lift? Cool.


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    #8248
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,228 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    FellasFellas wrote: »
    Ireland

    I cannot fathom the reason why Casey is not in the squad now. He is going to be on the bench in 23, why are we delaying the inevitable. Marmion is not good enough and JGP is in good form at the moment, but he has been in good form before for Leinster and then fallen off.
    Cooney needs another look if he keeps playing well and Murray, Casey and Cooney should be the 3 nines going forward.


    JGP is an excellent player and in great form

    Marmion .... plenty good enough. No idea why you think he isn't good enough.


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    #8249
    WhoamI2022
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭WhoamI2022


    Sorry, I couldnt think of guys name, I meant the young U20 lad, Finlay


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    #8250
    WhoamI2022
    Closed Accounts Posts: 180 ✭✭WhoamI2022


    In reality the Italy game will not cost Ireland the championship, the opening game of the 6 nations v Scotland is the bigger issue. We should be expecting a bonus point victory at home v Scotland. If not at least putting up a decent points win.


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    #8251
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,264 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    WhoamI2022 wrote: »
    In reality the Italy game will not cost Ireland the championship, the opening game of the 6 nations v Scotland is the bigger issue. We should be expecting a bonus point victory at home v Scotland. If not at least putting up a decent points win.

    It was Farrell’s first game in change. Honestly think some people’s expectations at times are crazy levels.


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