Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Strazdas · 22-10-2020 1:13pm

fash wrote: »

Other Eurosceptics aren't soaking in English tabloids - they can see just as well as anyone that brexit is a crock. Indeed brexiters themselves realise it so are starting the whole "that's not my brexit" schtick.

Eurosceptics on the continent are genuine Eurosceptics in the main, with concerns about the EU taking on extra powers etc. The English variety are not 'sceptics' at all, but Europhobes with a hatred of the EU, of Europe and of 'foreigners' / immigrants.

British Euroscepticism around 2004/05 was probably the real deal, but it has clearly morphed into being a far right phenomenon.

dogbert27 · 22-10-2020 1:40pm

I really don't think the British public are aware of what's going to hit them if this government takes them out of the EU with no deal.

On top of Brexit alone being bad for the economy the coronavirus has totally distracted the public from a lockdown perspective that nobody is even questioning 1. where Sunak is getting all this money from and 2. how the government are going to pay it back.

The UK are in for a very had number of years with recession and will be behind the States and the rest of Europe in recovery.

BonnieSituation · 22-10-2020 1:52pm

dogbert27 wrote: »

I really don't think the British public are aware of what's going to hit them if this government takes them out of the EU with no deal.

On top of Brexit alone being bad for the economy the coronavirus has totally distracted the public from a lockdown perspective that nobody is even questioning 1. where Sunak is getting all this money from and 2. how the government are going to pay it back.

The UK are in for a very had number of years with recession and will be behind the States and the rest of Europe in recovery.

For starters they still think they are in the EU.

---

The last few days across UK cable channels I have noticed an uptick about getting ready for the transition on Jan 1 2021.

It seems they are selling the end of the transition period as the entry into some post-EU/deal transition period.

https://www.gov.uk/transition

The language is very vague and that's coming from someone who is pretty attuned to Brexit.

View · 22-10-2020 2:26pm

fash wrote: »

Other Eurosceptics aren't soaking in English tabloids - they can see just as well as anyone that brexit is a crock. Indeed brexiters themselves realise it so are starting the whole "that's not my brexit" schtick.

I never suggested they were soaking in the English tabloids. That doesn’t mean that the U.K. press doesn’t have a “reach” that goes beyond their home market.

And a PR victory for the U.K. Brexiters will feed into the Eurosceptic narrative in other EU countries, even if that PR victory is largely smoke and mirrors.

View · 22-10-2020 2:31pm

Strazdas wrote: »

Eurosceptics on the continent are genuine Eurosceptics in the main, with concerns about the EU taking on extra powers etc. The English variety are not 'sceptics' at all, but Europhobes with a hatred of the EU, of Europe and of 'foreigners' / immigrants.

British Euroscepticism around 2004/05 was probably the real deal, but it has clearly morphed into being a far right phenomenon.

That’s true for some but for many others it is purely a tactical position rather than the outright opposition they’d prefer. We only have to look at our own referenda where the same people who supposedly are pro-EU but “just opposed to the Treaty of X” pop up, with the same arguments a few years later, claiming to be pro-EU but “just opposed to the Treaty of Y” etc etc

Enzokk · 22-10-2020 3:18pm

salonfire wrote: »

So it does expose the chink in the EU armour, optics. That throwing a tantrum prompts the EU to reach out to try and be the adult. What's to stop other states playing up the same.

Barnier should have let UK have the last word last week and said nothing. Now he is on the next plane to London.

It shows that the UK has the EU by the balls. Who wants a rogue state under cutting and undermining on their doorstep. That's why Barnier couldn't let it lay.

Optics are for the domestic audience. If you can show that the story is being reported the same way in Europe as it is in the UK you would have a point. If it is only reported this way in the UK and it allows the EU to get a deal, I don't really care what the Express of The Telegraph reports it as.

Joe_ Public · 22-10-2020 3:33pm

Said this before, this is pretty much on a par with what happened 12 months ago, brexiteers crowing about the eu backing down to hand them their brilliant victory on "reopening"the WA. Don't think it was any skin off the eu side's nose then and doubt it should be this time either. In fact i'm sure i can remember Verhofstat and a few others just laughing at the uk reports of those negotiations. After 4 long tortuous years, i can't imagine the message of whats at stake hasn't already reached home with those of a sufficiently rational mind to understand it. The rest are beyond reach unfortunately.

dogbert27 · 22-10-2020 3:38pm

Eurosceptics are already changing their tune seeing the mess that Brexit is.

https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/06/marine-le-pen-eu-has-more-to-lose-on-brexit-but-i-don-t-want-frexit

Le Pen ran her 2017 presidential election bid on getting France out of the EU too with a referendum. After being heavily defeated she is now talking about changing the EU but not taking France out of it.

Also the far right movement has been changing. The main protest of nearly every far right party in Europe was to do with immigration. The borders of nearly all countries have been closed for most of the year so their main protest has actually been taken away from them.

The FPO party in Austria had once 31% of the vote they're now down to 9% in recent local elections and the comments from them were that they are not being defeated by their political opponents but by themselves fighting with each other.

The AfD in Germany rose to be the main opposition party and now are back to third.

The people of other EU countries have witnessed over 4 years of utter stupidity from the British government in this Brexit nonsense and I doubt there is a majority appetite of any population in an EU country to go through similar.

What do the Brexiteers want from leaving the EU? Something they will never get, the return of Great Britain as a global leader because the era of single nations building empires through military might are over.

I blame the Hugh Grant speech from Love Actually for starting all this Brexiteer nonsense!

RobMc59 · 22-10-2020 3:53pm

Enzokk wrote: »

Optics are for the domestic audience. If you can show that the story is being reported the same way in Europe as it is in the UK you would have a point. If it is only reported this way in the UK and it allows the EU to get a deal, I don't really care what the Express of The Telegraph reports it as.

Do you actually believe it's only the UK press who indulges in drum banging propaganda?

The Raging Bile Duct · 22-10-2020 4:00pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Do you actually believe it's only the UK press who indulges in drum banging propaganda?

No but Brexit is of little relevance to the rest of Europe at the moment. People on the continent are far more concerned by Covid than what a couple of right wing papers in England are crowing about in relation to their withdrawal from the EU.

Also, remember the EU had to have a web page to bust myths about the EU almost entirely in response to the constant nonsense being published in English tabloids so apart from maybe the likes of the Independent or the Guardian, I'd imagine that English newspapers aren't held in high regard in the rest of Europe.

johnnyskeleton · 22-10-2020 4:02pm

Infini wrote: »

The true irony of all this is that the end result of this could be a rump state of little england, an independent Republic of Scotland and after a century or so a United Ireland. All that loss for them because they decided to dupe their own populace, feed them lies over and over and could not accept that the British Empire is dead and buried and todays world is a world dominated by large power blocks where we pool together to hold our common values and the weakest and foolhardy get ultimately ground down and thrown under the bus.

But sure they got glorious blue british passports (product of france) out of it!

Also the loss of prestiege internationally. So far it's relatively modest - the loss of the vote on the Chagos Islands being the obvious one (probably wishful thinking to believe the UK could lose its security council seat, but stranger things have happened), but also the former colonies severing their final ties with the UK e.g. Barbados becoming a Republic. While the Brexiteers naievely dream about CANZUK, the moves for Australia to cut the remaining ties with the UK have cropped up.

I have also heard the suggestion that when Queen Elizabeth II dies, that a lot of countries that have her as head of State will use the opportunity to not accept Charles (or whoever) as the new head of State and will allow the monarchy to lapse.

Also the global network of financial money laundering which is centred in London but which goes to Cayman Islands etc could come tumbling down. For years, they managed to convince the world that Ireland was at the centre of it, but it has been London, especially since the start of this century, and without EU cover it's hard to see how that will remain.

I wonder will they still be trying to maintain their aircraft carriers and foreign military bases and keep hold of the Falkland Islands as a much reduced nation?

I assume all of the above won't happen. But some of it probably will. Even if they manage to make a roaring economic success of it, the last vestages of their empire will be swept away in the next decade.

Seth Brundle · 22-10-2020 4:31pm

The Times has an article about the VAT changes and how it will affect UK EU trade.
Is the man on the street is finally being educated in the reality of things to come?

https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1319187075678220288

Sam Russell · 22-10-2020 4:46pm

Whether there is no-deal or just a thin trade deal of no tariffs and no quotas, then there will still be customs clearance and SPS requirements, together with cert of origin matters to comply with.

Therefore, there will still be lorry parks in Kent and queues on the M2 and M20. The cost to the UK Gov of the 50,000 customs officers will be of the order of their net contributions to the EU budget. There will be an almost identical cost to UK business to pay for the clearance agents who have to fill out those customs forms.

They are too far down the road to avoid chaos in January - it might take a few weeks to get really bad, but it will get really bad really quickly - logistics will hit first, then the costs, then the economic costs then recession - probably in that order.

Who thought this Brexit lark was a good idea?

The Raging Bile Duct · 22-10-2020 4:50pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The Times has an article about the VAT changes and how it will affect UK EU trade.
Is the man on the street is finally being educated in the reality of things to come?

https://twitter.com/paullewismoney/status/1319187075678220288

What's going to happen to Ireland when it comes to the likes of Amazon UK?

Silent Running · 22-10-2020 5:01pm

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

What's going to happen to Ireland when it comes to the likes of Amazon UK?

Hopefully Amazon.ie. But there's always Amazon.de, or .fr, etc.

Seth Brundle · 22-10-2020 5:06pm

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

What's going to happen to Ireland when it comes to the likes of Amazon UK?

As much as I dislike Amazon, I believe that they will redirect Irish users to use Amazon Germany.

Amazon apparently have told UK retailers that all EU orders must be fulfilled in their German warehouses. Similarly, orders from EU suppliers to UK customers must be fulfilled in the UK warehouses

upupup · 22-10-2020 5:31pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

As much as I dislike Amazon, I believe that they will redirect Irish users to use Amazon Germany.

Amazon apparently have told UK retailers that all EU orders must be fulfilled in their German warehouses. Similarly, orders from EU suppliers to UK customers must be fulfilled in the UK warehouses

I have been using amazon germany for the last few months as uk was out of stock.
The website translates,the product was cheaper and arrived just as quick as uk amazon so the only change for me was a cheaper product.

looksee · 22-10-2020 6:04pm

Same, the German Amazon was fine. There was a query with the supplier and they communicated with me in English, I did apologise that I could not discuss with them in German, just to be polite, like.

paul71 · 22-10-2020 7:09pm

View wrote: »

I never suggested they were soaking in the English tabloids. That doesn’t mean that the U.K. press doesn’t have a “reach” that goes beyond their home market.

And a PR victory for the U.K. Brexiters will feed into the Eurosceptic narrative in other EU countries, even if that PR victory is largely smoke and mirrors.

The UK press has absolutely zero reach outside the UK, except for Ireland. On the continent the only people reading it are the British retirees in Spain. Anywhere I have lived in Czech, Germany or France has absolutely no knowledge of the British Tabloid.

In places like Czech Republic, Poland or the French border regions you are far more likely to see "Bild" than any UK tabloid.

Patser · 22-10-2020 7:13pm

I'd say even something as simple as the mention those Amazon changes, could set a lot of alarm bells off in the general public in the UK. So far Brexit has remained kind of aloof and boring, with talk of tariffs and businesses etc, which to a lot of the general public means little.

Being told now that their main online shopping outlet is about to become more expensive and also limited, might bring reality of brexit to the masses.

The Raging Bile Duct · 22-10-2020 7:21pm

looksee wrote: »

Same, the German Amazon was fine. There was a query with the supplier and they communicated with me in English, I did apologise that I could not discuss with them in German, just to be polite, like.

I use Prime so get free delivery from UK but it looks like I'll have to pay for delivery from the German site which is a pain in the hole.

MBSnr · 22-10-2020 7:23pm

^^^
I dunno what you guys are buying to find it cheaper! Just checked on an amazon price compare site. Of my last 6 orders everything was more expensive on the other Amazon sites compared to the UK (then add delivery) or actually not available. I have bought items such as mobile phones from the Italian, Spanish and German sites as the pricing has been cheaper but that's rare enough. I have UK Prime and mostly only buy small items fulfilled by Amazon... going to miss that I guess.

Be interesting how Amazon deal with it. Be nice if they offered some sort of Prime for Irish customers.
One thing is for sure. We'd be needing more adaptors for Euro plugs as I'd imagine we'll be seeing more of them on items...

BonnieSituation · 22-10-2020 7:35pm

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
I dunno what you guys are buying to find it cheaper! Just checked on an amazon price compare site. Of my last 6 orders everything was more expensive on the other Amazon sites compared to the UK (then add delivery) or actually not available. I have bought items such as mobile phones from the Italian, Spanish and German sites as the pricing has been cheaper but that's rare enough. I have UK Prime and mostly only buy small items fulfilled by Amazon... going to miss that I guess.

Be interesting how Amazon deal with it. Be nice if they offered some sort of Prime for Irish customers.
One thing is for sure. We'd be needing more adaptors for Euro plugs as I'd imagine we'll be seeing more of them on items...

The last yoke of the Empire we can throw off!

Shame we never kept the Schuko plugs that we could have had when Siemens were sorting out electricity here.

BonnieSituation · 22-10-2020 7:37pm

MBSnr wrote: »

^^^
I dunno what you guys are buying to find it cheaper! Just checked on an amazon price compare site. Of my last 6 orders everything was more expensive on the other Amazon sites compared to the UK (then add delivery) or actually not available. I have bought items such as mobile phones from the Italian, Spanish and German sites as the pricing has been cheaper but that's rare enough. I have UK Prime and mostly only buy small items fulfilled by Amazon... going to miss that I guess.

Be interesting how Amazon deal with it. Be nice if they offered some sort of Prime for Irish customers.
One thing is for sure. We'd be needing more adaptors for Euro plugs as I'd imagine we'll be seeing more of them on items...

I have tried so many times to find something cheaper on other Amazons and so far it was my Motorola G4PLUS 3 years ago!

dogbert27 · 22-10-2020 7:39pm

More issues on the way for the economy:

According to the latest figures from UK Finance, as of 9 October there were:

- 162,000 mortgage holidays in place

- 97,300 credit card holidays in place

- 64,400 personal loan holidays in place

All these holidays end on October 31st just as people normally need to borrow to go in to the Christmas season and then they are on their own come January 01st with just the UK government. Tough times ahead.

dogbert27 · 22-10-2020 7:44pm

And in the middle of this it says that a think tank (CEBR) predicts up to 3 million unemployed by the end of the year.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8867355/Home-Secretary-Priti-Patel-overrules-immigration-experts-BLOCK-foreign-builders-UK.html

And Patel is standing up for the British "white van man" by blocking foreign brick layers and welders after December 31st.

Good luck with the cost of your projects over there then!

MBSnr · 22-10-2020 7:48pm

I'm not sure how much Irish food companies can capitalise on this or whether they have the capacity to step up to plug the possible gaps that will ultimately occur if the UK companies actually pull out of NI.

https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-food-companies-leave-northern-ireland-leaders-warn-boris-johnson-2020-10

RobMc59 · 22-10-2020 7:51pm

Patser wrote: »

I'd say even something as simple as the mention those Amazon changes, could set a lot of alarm bells off in the general public in the UK. So far Brexit has remained kind of aloof and boring, with talk of tariffs and businesses etc, which to a lot of the general public means little.

Being told now that their main online shopping outlet is about to become more expensive and also limited, might bring reality of brexit to the masses.

Amazon UK is in the process expanding,due to increased sales in the UK domestic market.Here`s a link.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8693211/Amazon-announces-create-7-000-jobs-warehouses-sites-UK.html

listermint · 22-10-2020 7:52pm

RobMc59 wrote: »

Amazon UK is in the process expanding,due to increased sales in the UK domestic market.Here`s a link.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8693211/Amazon-announces-create-7-000-jobs-warehouses-sites-UK.html

As you and I know . This is solely covid related.

RobMc59 · 22-10-2020 7:57pm

listermint wrote: »

As you and I know . This is solely covid related.

If you read the link,there will be 10,000 new permanant jobs

Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

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