Schools closed until February? (part 3)

Thats me · 22-10-2020 12:32PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

.

Does this approve or disapprove my assumptions???

Lillyfae · 22-10-2020 12:42PM

Thats me wrote: »

Does this approve or disapprove my assumptions???

I have no idea. I'm not even going to look into it, because they're your assumptions and seem to have no basis in fact. All I did was point out your misunderstanding of what the Irish Times piece said, a day later you're still trying to get me to correct your homework.

irishblessing · 22-10-2020 01:06PM

meeeeh wrote: »

That's not his statement. I know what someone wrote about it but I would like to see direct quote Dr Fauci made. All I can see he said that it is hard to keep schools open when spread is out of control. That's different to what you claim or journalist in Sindo claims (surprise surprise there).

The article directly quotes Dr Fauci, are you calling them liars then?

You also said, and I quote, "That being said I'm pretty sure top American immunologist is not stupid enough to publicly state what another country (Ireland) should do so at best I'm 100% sure you are misrepresenting his statements."

I responded with the article links to direct statements from Dr. Fauci in regards to Ireland and what we should do.
You refuse to admit when you're wrong. That's your failing, not mine.

blanch152 · 22-10-2020 01:12PM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Does anyone think it would be a good idea for primary schools, if they need to close for a few weeks, that they just try and make it up at other times? Say take a bit off the xmas holidays/easter/summer? I know with secondary the summer would be difficult due to the exams, but for primary should be no issue.

The unions won't allow this.

irishblessing · 22-10-2020 01:18PM

meeeeh wrote: »

That's not his statement. I know what someone wrote about it but I would like to see direct quote Dr Fauci made. All I can see he said that it is hard to keep schools open when spread is out of control. That's different to what you claim or journalist in Sindo claims (surprise surprise there).

I went back to the Independent article, and here is the verbatim from behind the paywall you don't want to access. I put the direct quote in bold for you. I'll take the apology from you any time, thanks.

Taoiseach Micheál Martin has repeatedly said the Government would be "prioritising" schools and colleges staying open in the event of further Covid-19 restrictions, something which Nphet also recommended last weekend when it suggested implementing Level 5 restrictions.

"I don't think you'd be able to do that," Dr Fauci said. "When you do, you get a lot of children getting affected… it becomes really difficult to get the schools to open safely. We are running into the same problem in the United States."

However, Dr Fauci said closing Irish restaurants and bars last week as part of Level 3 restrictions was the right thing to do, believing they are "hotspots" for the pandemic.

"I'm sorry to say if you do have a high level of community spread, you really have to do that."

While a nationwide lockdown would be "prudent", it is probably not practical, said Dr Fauci. "If everybody in Ireland wore a mask, physically distanced, avoided crowds, washed their hands regularly I think you could control the infection enough not to lock down. We know it's very effective: you can prevent the resurgences you've seen and even blunt those that have already occurred."

Archbishops across the country are asking that Mass be exempt from Covid restrictions as it provides "essential spiritual nourishment", but Dr Fauci disagrees.

"I don't want to offend my Catholic colleagues. What we know as a fact is that when people congregate indoors, particularly if they don't want to wear masks, or when you don't have good ventilation, then you run the risk of having super-spreading events," he said.

Dr Fauci believes Ireland and the rest of the EU is now in a "precarious place" due to the large number of new cases emerging daily and says: "I think we are all in for a difficult winter".

HerrKuehn · 22-10-2020 01:19PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The unions won't allow this.

Well the unions haven't been asked though have they? Anyway, the union is just the members, i.e. the teachers, so it is really a question of whether the teachers will allow it.

LittleBrick · 22-10-2020 01:24PM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Well the unions haven't been asked though have they? Anyway, the union is just the members, i.e. the teachers, so it is really a question of whether the teachers will allow it.

Teachers won't (being a teacher, I am sure of this). We will be more than happy to stream live classes online, provide feedback, pre record lessons. But the holidays are something teachers will not budge on, because they feel if they sway once they will be shortened forever more.

HerrKuehn · 22-10-2020 01:26PM

LittleBrick wrote: »

Teachers won't (being a teacher, I am sure of this). We will be more than happy to stream live classes online, provide feedback, pre record lessons. But the holidays are something teachers will not budge on, because they feel if they sway once they will be shortened forever more.

Well the thing is, they wouldn't be shortened, they would be happening at different times. Easter already does this every year.

LittleBrick · 22-10-2020 01:29PM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Well the thing is, they wouldn't be shortened, they would be happening at different times. Easter already does this every year.

Regardless of what way you want to phrase it, it won't be accepted. Blended or online learning could have buy in from teachers (I for one am 100% for this) but the holidays are sacrosanct.

HerrKuehn · 22-10-2020 01:43PM

LittleBrick wrote: »

Regardless of what way you want to phrase it, it won't be accepted. Blended or online learning could have buy in from teachers (I for one am 100% for this) but the holidays are sacrosanct.

I think this type of attitude is the reason our public services are in the state that they are. It is thousands of decisions like this, replicated all over the public sector. The government isn't bad at making the kind of macro decisions which don't involve changing what people have to do, FDA policy, joining EU, euro etc. Any time it involves having to changing the way its staff work, the state fails miserably. We have a large number of people working for the state who have little or nothing to do at the moment (solas, libraries etc), yet we don't have enough contact tracers! We are having to try and hire temp staff to do it.
When the final bill comes in and they are trying to figure out how to pay for it, it should be remembered where costs were needlessly added.

MOH · 22-10-2020 01:51PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

But this affects schools no more or less than the rest of society.

But we're pretty much shutting down the rest of society. Even if schools were affected no more or less than the rest of society, leaving them unchanged undermines the effect of the restrictions.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Government has stated their core priority is that schools are open. This has been stated and restated numerous times.

Yes, and that's a problem. If they'd made their core priority curbing the spread of the virus by introducing the measures that were promised, schools would benefit as a by-product along with everything else.

Lillyfae · 22-10-2020 02:04PM

MOH wrote: »

But we're pretty much shutting down the rest of society. Even if schools were affected no more or less than the rest of society, leaving them unchanged undermines the effect of the restrictions.

Yes, and that's a problem. If they'd made their core priority curbing the spread of the virus by introducing the measures that were promised, schools would benefit as a by-product along with everything else.

Society hasn't been shut down. There are restrictions in order to maintain essential services- schools are essential. Sure if we want to ensure efficacy of the restrictions we'd close the hospitals aswell :pac:.

TTLF · 22-10-2020 02:11PM

Arguing back and forth to prove a point isn’t going to help anyone in the end. There’s no point in this forum going back and forth if schools should be remained open or not and even when it’s based on opinion, it’s not helping anyone when you’re trying to prove who’s right or wrong.

Bottom line is, schools are still open. We’ll know by Friday next week if this was helpful or not with midterm, and if they’ll be closed for longer or not. But the idea from the government currently is, they’re staying open under any costs, silly or not.

It’s not fun trying to find if there’s any updates in this forum when it’s just constant “no you’re wrong, no you’re wrong.”

Lillyfae · 22-10-2020 02:16PM

TTLF wrote: »

It’s not fun trying to find if there’s any updates in this forum when it’s just constant “no you’re wrong, no you’re wrong.”

Touche, this annoys me too and apologies for my contribution to it over the last couple of days.

joe40 · 22-10-2020 02:21PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Society hasn't been shut down. There are restrictions in order to maintain essential services- schools are essential. Sure if we want to ensure efficacy of the restrictions we'd close the hospitals aswell :pac:.

Exactly, this lockdown although level 5 it is nothing like March. Apart from hospitality, clothes retail, and hair/beauty plenty of other parts of our society and economy are functioning.

If I thought a 3 months total lockdown would work in the long term, I'd be all for it, but it won't.
Talk about closing schools and making up the time later does not make sense to me. What exactly will be different next easter or next summer even. If it is too dangerous to open schools now it will be dangerous then.

The big thing I think is getting public compliance with distancing, hand washing etc.

meeeeh · 22-10-2020 02:28PM

irishblessing wrote: »

I went back to the Independent article, and here is the verbatim from behind the paywall you don't want to access. I put the direct quote in bold for you. I'll take the apology from you any time, thanks.

Taoiseach Micheál Martin has repeatedly said the Government would be "prioritising" schools and colleges staying open in the event of further Covid-19 restrictions, something which Nphet also recommended last weekend when it suggested implementing Level 5 restrictions.

"I don't think you'd be able to do that," Dr Fauci said. "When you do, you get a lot of children getting affected… it becomes really difficult to get the schools to open safely. We are running into the same problem in the United States."

However, Dr Fauci said closing Irish restaurants and bars last week as part of Level 3 restrictions was the right thing to do, believing they are "hotspots" for the pandemic.

"I'm sorry to say if you do have a high level of community spread, you really have to do that."

While a nationwide lockdown would be "prudent", it is probably not practical, said Dr Fauci. "If everybody in Ireland wore a mask, physically distanced, avoided crowds, washed their hands regularly I think you could control the infection enough not to lock down. We know it's very effective: you can prevent the resurgences you've seen and even blunt those that have already

So he didn't say what you claim he said. Not to mention he also said national lockdown wouldn't be practical. I'm aware that this is a few weeks old but it's clear this is a discussion of what would happen in different situations. At the time he was saying level 3 was enough and you have no idea what he would be saying now so don't misrepresent him.

irishblessing · 22-10-2020 03:01PM

meeeeh wrote: »

So he didn't say what you claim he said. Not to mention he also said national lockdown wouldn't be practical. I'm aware that this is a few weeks old but it's clear this is a discussion of what would happen in different situations. At the time he was saying level 3 was enough and you have no idea what he would be saying now so don't misrepresent him.

He absolutely said what I said he did. You're unbelievable. The height of stubbornness you can't even admit when you're wrong. I'm misrepresenting nothing.

Let's break this down, shall we?

I said: "Dr. Fauci said keeping schools open in this situation where we're at the highest levels of restrictions wouldn't be possible. I think one of the worlds leading infectious disease experts knows better."

Joe40 asked: "Was Dr Fauci talking about the situation in America or in Ireland."

I said: Ireland. "I've already posted the link here, twice I believe. That's what I was referring to earlier when I said you're definitely not reading back...
https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-39608868.html
It might have a paywall for you, I'm sure there's other full articles on his comments if you'd like to search."

You said: "I refuse to pay for SIndo but what I can see is that it's difficult to keep schools open when its significant community spread. you can tell us what is significant spread but the countries who are closing schools have much higher incidence rate than Ireland.

That being said I'm pretty sure top American immunologist is not stupid enough to publicly state what another country (Ireland) should do so at best I'm 100% sure you are misrepresenting his statements."

Me: I pointed out he did publicly state what Ireland should do. I wasn't "100% misrepresenting" anything. I reposted the link and part of the article in bold.

You said: "Actually could you show me exactly where is the quote that schools should be closed at level 5. I know you posted some journalist's quick interpretation but please show me the actual quote. It's simple, not seeing what you wish to see, just the simple fact."

So I posted the quotes from the full article, giving you exactly what you wanted- Dr. Fauci directly saying schools should be closed at level 5.

Here's that quote again I posted:
"Taoiseach Micheál Martin has repeatedly said the Government would be "prioritising" schools and colleges staying open in the event of further Covid-19 restrictions, something which Nphet also recommended last weekend when it suggested implementing Level 5 restrictions.

"I don't think you'd be able to do that," Dr Fauci said. "When you do, you get a lot of children getting affected… it becomes really difficult to get the schools to open safely. We are running into the same problem in the United States."

I demonstrated the exact quote you asked for-which was Dr. Fauci directly speaking about Ireland (you're wrong #1), and also that he said schools should be closed at level 5 (you're wrong #2). We're not talking about national lockdowns, we're talking about schools being open at level 5 so don't try and muddy the waters, it won't work.

The fact that you can't admit when you're wrong is ridiculous. You accused me of misrepresenting him and I'd appreciate an apology. Is that so hard.

Thats me · 22-10-2020 03:12PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

I have no idea. I'm not even going to look into it, because they're your assumptions and seem to have no basis in fact. All I did was point out your misunderstanding of what the Irish Times piece said, a day later you're still trying to get me to correct your homework.

OK, since you have no idea, let me try to help you. :cool:

This is what you have originally wrote and my argument on this post only:

Lillyfae wrote: »

12,500 adults and children linked to over 500 schools and childcare facilities have so far been tested for Covid-19, with 352 positive cases recorded. That's not a huge rate of positivity

You have provided stats for people, not for test cases. And provided your valuation as "not a huge rate"

Tell me please, why we should compare this to number of tests done? Your numbers based not on number of tests, but on number of people (adults and children). Mine too: nation-wide this is ratio of new cases to population.

Number of tests done has no relation to absolute number of people affected - it is done in very different circumstances (~ 1/3 of tests done in hospitals), same person can be tested many times.

meeeeh · 22-10-2020 03:19PM

irishblessing wrote: »

The fact that you can't admit when you're wrong is ridiculous. You accused me of misrepresenting him and I'd appreciate an apology. Is that so hard.

He was talking weeks ago that if a lot of children were affected (which they are not) you can't keep schools open. You are misrepresenting hypothetical conversation weeks old as an instruction what to do now at currentlevelof infections. Not to mention he used 'I don't think' not absolute statement. But since you want an apology I must say I'm very sorry that as per usual you are reading what you want to see and not what is actually said.

MOH · 22-10-2020 03:22PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Society hasn't been shut down. There are restrictions in order to maintain essential services- schools are essential. Sure if we want to ensure efficacy of the restrictions we'd close the hospitals aswell :pac:.

Suggesting that schools are as essential as hospitals just demonstrates you're incapable of rational discussion.

Lillyfae · 22-10-2020 03:29PM

MOH wrote: »

Suggesting that schools are as essential as hospitals just demonstrates you're incapable of rational discussion.

Don't misrepresent what I said. I said schools were essential, I made no allusion as to where they fall in a list of priorities.

Do you think the government are prioritizing keeping schools open just to annoy the unions or something? Don't you think there would be any other reason to prioritize this?

meeeeh · 22-10-2020 03:38PM

Anyone can check the incidence rate around Europe here. Ireland is very much in the middle and far from the worst affected countries.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest it is not sustainable to keep schools open at this level.

jrosen · 22-10-2020 03:43PM

Our secondary school has had 5 cases to date. None originating in school. They have asked that families notify them as the HSE is overwhelmed and may not notify as soon as they should.
They have also asked that parents not allow their kids to congregate for Halloween as the kids will be due back to school within 2 days.
They are really doing a great job.

As parents we need to do out part. We should be limiting our childrens social contacts outside of school as best we can.

irishblessing · 22-10-2020 03:49PM

meeeeh wrote: »

He was talking weeks ago that if a lot of children were affected (which they are not) you can't keep schools open. You are misrepresenting hypothetical conversation weeks old as an instruction what to do now at currentlevelof infections. Not to mention he used 'I don't think' not absolute statement. But since you want an apology I must say I'm very sorry that as per usual you are reading what you want to see and not what is actually said.

A lot of children are affected. Wow.... grasping for straws so you are. Pathetic.

joe40 · 22-10-2020 03:58PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Anyone can check the incidence rate around Europe here. Ireland is very much in the middle and far from the worst affected countries.

https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

It is absolutely ridiculous to suggest it is not sustainable to keep schools open at this level.

Our current restrictions are very much pre emptive and targeted at reducing numbers for Christmas. I don't have a major problem with that. But we are not in a crisis situation as regards numbers or impact on our health system.
Therefore I see no reason to close schools for extended period. An extra week after Halloween maybe but no longer. Not at our current situation.

Thats me · 22-10-2020 04:05PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The primary objective should be ensuring hospitals can continue to function.
The next objective should be to ensure that the next generation can be educated.
The third objective should be to ensure that other essential services can function.
The final objective should be to ensure that sufficient economic activity takes place to pay for the first three objectives.

All else, all other businesses don't matter - this is a pandemic.

Can you please confirm are these official objectives published somewhere or this is your private list of objectives?

meeeeh · 22-10-2020 04:10PM

jrosen wrote: »

Our secondary school has had 5 cases to date. None originating in school. They have asked that families notify them as the HSE is overwhelmed and may not notify as soon as they should.
They have also asked that parents not allow their kids to congregate for Halloween as the kids will be due back to school within 2 days.
They are really doing a great job.

As parents we need to do out part. We should be limiting our childrens social contacts outside of school as best we can.

Actually what worries me is that if we extended holidays you would have older kids congregating outside school more and without proper supervision. Kids and too much time isn't great combination sometimes. This is Grafton Street yesterday:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/large-crowds-gather-on-dublin-s-grafton-street-on-eve-of-lockdown-1.4388229?mode=amp

I know lockdown only came into force at midnight but sometimes no restrictions will work if people behave like idiots.

Thats me · 22-10-2020 04:10PM

meeeeh · 22-10-2020 04:14PM

Thats me wrote: »

Yes the whole covod response can be reduced to a picture and a sentence. Who needs experts when you can provide a handy instructions for every situation.

lawrencesummers · 22-10-2020 04:18PM

joe40 wrote: »

Our current restrictions are very much pre emptive and targeted at reducing numbers for Christmas. I don't have a major problem with that. But we are not in a crisis situation as regards numbers or impact on our health system.
Therefore I see no reason to close schools for extended period. An extra week after Halloween maybe but no longer. Not at our current situation.

Is that the same health system that shut down one of the vital aspects of Covid response just this week?

Is that the same health system that is unable to provide staff for a nursing home with almost complete Covid infection?

Is that the same Health system that is cancelling routine procedures all over the place?

Not in a crisis situation? Our health system has never not been in a crisis even before this virus.

Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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