Schools closed until February? (part 3)

blanch152 · 22-10-2020 11:07AM

irishblessing wrote: »

There's an element of truth to both. We need to drastically curb the spread of covid and avoid overwhelming the health system. The government have also stated keeping schools open are a top priority to keep people working.

Well at this point most are either out of work, told to stay home and therefore out of work, or working from home. So why shouldn't we take this opportunity to extend the midterm break and test/hone remote learning for a short period of time. Then keep it established for those who need it who are at risk, needing to quarantine, or in the event of the inevitable class/school closures or future (3rd wave) lockdowns.

We can't manage remote learning for some in a situation where the teacher unions are refusing to allow simulcasting of lessons. Without that, the service to some will not be as good.

Even crowded classrooms could be sorted if the unions allowed the lesson to be broadcast to a classroom next door or elsewhere in the school.

irishblessing · 22-10-2020 11:08AM

meeeeh wrote: »

I refuse to pay for SIndo but what I can see is that it's difficult to keep schools open when its significant community spread. you can tell us what is significant spread but the countries who are closing schools have much higher incidence rate than Ireland.

That being said I'm pretty sure top American immunologist is not stupid enough to publicly state what another country (Ireland) should do so at best I'm 100% sure you are misrepresenting his statements.

Well you have egg on your face, as per usual.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/were-in-for-a-difficult-winter-but-dont-give-up-hope-says-dr-anthony-fauci-39608868.html

Dr Anthony Fauci, America's leading virus expert, has said schools here should shut if the Government implements Level 5 restrictions due to the "concerning resurgence" of Covid-19.

The director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases has told the Sunday Independent that when there is significant community spread of coronavirus, it is "difficult" to keep schools open.

Asked how he thought Ireland had responded to the pandemic, he praised Ireland’s response to the virus.

“It really gets down to the point that I am trying to make the enemy is not the public health people who are trying to contain the virus.”

He told host Ryan Tubridy: "Ireland did not get hit as badly (as America), but they got hit badly, you did… and what you did is you put restrictions that were substantial restrictions and you got a base line back down.

"And what your plan is, is that you are going to access where you are and have certain type of guidelines that are appropriate to where you are.

"And if you start to get an uptick, you are going to get restrictions to go to the next level."
"We all want to get the economy back but as I keep saying the best way to get the economy back is to control the virus."

Read More: Dr. Fauci claims European travel to US will be banned for months

He also revealed his own connections to Ireland through his wife Christine Grady, herself a top biologist whose grandparents came from Ireland.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/fauci-how-he-handles-trump-irish-covid-response

irishblessing · 22-10-2020 11:10AM

blanch152 wrote: »

We can't manage remote learning for some in a situation where the teacher unions are refusing to allow simulcasting of lessons. Without that, the service to some will not be as good.

Even crowded classrooms could be sorted if the unions allowed the lesson to be broadcast to a classroom next door or elsewhere in the school.

I'm not sure what the teacher unions are refusing to allow- do you have a link to this info?

Secondly, it's very possible to record lessons and then teachers provide additional lesson support and school work task and grading those.

Icyseanfitz · 22-10-2020 11:11AM

blanch152 wrote: »

We can't manage remote learning for some in a situation where the teacher unions are refusing to allow simulcasting of lessons. Without that, the service to some will not be as good.

Even crowded classrooms could be sorted if the unions allowed the lesson to be broadcast to a classroom next door or elsewhere in the school.

and who supervises the class next door? and where does this new classroom or 20 of them come from?

blanch152 · 22-10-2020 11:12AM

MOH wrote: »

Funny, I would have thought our current restrictions were in place to drastically curb the spread of Covid-19 and avoid overwhelming the health system.

Enabling schools to stay open should not be the focus of restrictions which will destroy businesses and have serious long-term impact on the economy. Not to mention all the other negative of such severe restrictions.

If it's possible to keep them open without undermining the effect of the restrictions, great, but there's no evidence that's the case.

The primary objective should be ensuring hospitals can continue to function.
The next objective should be to ensure that the next generation can be educated.
The third objective should be to ensure that other essential services can function.
The final objective should be to ensure that sufficient economic activity takes place to pay for the first three objectives.

All else, all other businesses don't matter - this is a pandemic.

blanch152 · 22-10-2020 11:18AM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

and who supervises the class next door? and where does this new classroom or 20 of them come from?

€40m has been provided for extra supervision costs to schools this year.

khalessi · 22-10-2020 11:19AM

There isn't enough staff

meeeeh · 22-10-2020 11:23AM

irishblessing wrote: »

Well you have egg on your face, as per usual.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/were-in-for-a-difficult-winter-but-dont-give-up-hope-says-dr-anthony-fauci-39608868.html

Dr Anthony Fauci, America's leading virus expert, has said schools here should shut if the Government implements Level 5 restrictions due to the "concerning resurgence" of Covid-19.

The director of the US National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases has told the Sunday Independent that when there is significant community spread of coronavirus, it is "difficult" to keep schools open.

Asked how he thought Ireland had responded to the pandemic, he praised Ireland’s response to the virus.

“It really gets down to the point that I am trying to make the enemy is not the public health people who are trying to contain the virus.”

He told host Ryan Tubridy: "Ireland did not get hit as badly (as America), but they got hit badly, you did… and what you did is you put restrictions that were substantial restrictions and you got a base line back down.

"And what your plan is, is that you are going to access where you are and have certain type of guidelines that are appropriate to where you are.

"And if you start to get an uptick, you are going to get restrictions to go to the next level."
"We all want to get the economy back but as I keep saying the best way to get the economy back is to control the virus."

Read More: Dr. Fauci claims European travel to US will be banned for months

He also revealed his own connections to Ireland through his wife Christine Grady, herself a top biologist whose grandparents came from Ireland.

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/fauci-how-he-handles-trump-irish-covid-response

Actually could you show me exactly where is the quote that schools should be closed at level 5. I know you posted some journalist's quick interpretation but please show me the actual quote. It's simple, not seeing what you wish to see, just the simple fact.

Icyseanfitz · 22-10-2020 11:27AM

blanch152 wrote: »

€40m has been provided for extra supervision costs to schools this year.

pure optics, there isn't enough staff to cover the teacher absences as it is, never mind doubling the amount of classes (which 40m would never cover building anyway). The only way to reduce class size is a hybrid/blended approach.

LittleBrick · 22-10-2020 11:30AM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

pure optics, there isn't enough staff to cover the teacher absences as it is, never mind doubling the amount of classes (which 40m would never cover building anyway). The only way to reduce class size is a hybrid/blended approach.

This was also only provided at secondary level. No extra supervision for primary. We now come in to supervise our class 15 minutes early every morning (40 hours extra a year) and are getting no additional pay for this.

wirelessdude01 · 22-10-2020 11:32AM

LittleBrick wrote: »

This was also only provided at secondary level. No extra supervision for primary. We now come in to supervise our class 15 minutes early every morning (40 hours extra a year) and are getting no additional pay for this.

Is your school not using the horrible CP hours to cover this like practically every other school in Ireland?

HerrKuehn · 22-10-2020 11:34AM

Does anyone think it would be a good idea for primary schools, if they need to close for a few weeks, that they just try and make it up at other times? Say take a bit off the xmas holidays/easter/summer? I know with secondary the summer would be difficult due to the exams, but for primary should be no issue.

Icyseanfitz · 22-10-2020 11:38AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Does anyone think it would be a good idea for primary schools, if they need to close for a few weeks, that they just try and make it up at other times? Say take a bit off the xmas holidays/easter/summer? I know with secondary the summer would be difficult due to the exams, but for primary should be no issue.

the department is very very set in its ways with regards holidays and when they fall.

mvl · 22-10-2020 11:39AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Does anyone think it would be a good idea for primary schools, if they need to close for a few weeks, that they just try and make it up at other times? Say take a bit off the xmas holidays/easter/summer? I know with secondary the summer would be difficult due to the exams, but for primary should be no issue.

or can be done next year too - when there is a will, there is a way.

HerrKuehn · 22-10-2020 11:40AM

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

the department is very very set in its ways with regards holidays and when they fall.

Are they so set in their ways, that say for example there was a global viral pandemic going on, that it would be impossible to change them slightly?

meeeeh · 22-10-2020 11:40AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Does anyone think it would be a good idea for primary schools, if they need to close for a few weeks, that they just try and make it up at other times? Say take a bit off the xmas holidays/easter/summer? I know with secondary the summer would be difficult due to the exams, but for primary should be no issue.

If the numbers keep climbing excessively then secondary schools should be closed first. It is completely last resort and complete collapse of public health that should close primary schools. Secondary school kids are better able to work on their own and they transmit more virus than mostof tge ages in primary schools.

For me making up time wouldn't be an issue but between DOE and Unions it would be a miracle if it happened.

wirelessdude01 · 22-10-2020 11:41AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Does anyone think it would be a good idea for primary schools, if they need to close for a few weeks, that they just try and make it up at other times? Say take a bit off the xmas holidays/easter/summer? I know with secondary the summer would be difficult due to the exams, but for primary should be no issue.

But you do know if school buildings are closed that learning just doesn't stop. Yes it won't be something that everyone likes or rates but it is what it is.

Realistically the department probably wouldn't be open to such a suggestion for a variety of reasons, main one which would be money. Schools open outside of traditional time frames mean more money. Govt don't like spending money on education.

irishblessing · 22-10-2020 11:42AM

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually could you show me exactly where is the quote that schools should be closed at level 5. I know you posted some journalist's quick interpretation but please show me the actual quote. It's simple, not seeing what you wish to see, just the simple fact.

I literally put it in bold for you already. You can't miss it. Simple fact he 100% commented on Ireland, so you're wrong there too.

Icyseanfitz · 22-10-2020 11:43AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Are they so set in their ways, that say for example there was a global viral pandemic going on, that it would be impossible to change them slightly?

as you can see by the reopening "plan" they dont like altering or changing anything as it takes effort and money.

HerrKuehn · 22-10-2020 11:45AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

But you do know if school buildings are closed that learning just doesn't stop. Yes it won't be something that everyone likes or rates but it is what it is.

Realistically the department probably wouldn't be open to such a suggestion for a variety of reasons, main one which would be money. Schools open outside of traditional time frames mean more money. Govt don't like spending money on education.

If schools are closed during the year, say in winter for a couple, then open an extra 2 weeks later in the summer, why would it be more money? There would be less usage of electricity and heating surely.

eagle eye · 22-10-2020 11:46AM

mvl wrote:

when ppl seem to talk about homeschool for a while: does anyone what is the process to re-enroll back to taught classes after couple of semesters of home schooling ? e.g. can I make arrangements for homeschooling now, and then re-enroll same year if/when suits ?

Well I've kept my kids home this whole time.
I was in touch with the school, local TD's, the government and Tusla as regards keeping them at home. I told them my intention was to send them back after eight weeks if everything was fine.
Principle of the school initially said they might be taken off the class rolls but that all changed when I said via email that I'd send them in if she could guarantee that they wouldn't contract covid and suffer long term illness from it. I contacted Tusla about her comments as well and they guaranteed that they wouldn't be taken off the class rolls.
If you are doing this just make it clear to Tusla that you are not homeschooling by choice and that you intend to send them back as soon as you deem it safe to do so.

Thats me · 22-10-2020 11:50AM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Just to demonstrate your mistake, I've taken the numbers from here:

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/ireland?country=~IRL

According to this, there were 675973 tests carried out over the last 8 weeks. Of those tests, 24535 were positive. The positivity rate of those tested was 3.63%.

According to the Irish Times, 12500 tests were carried out over 8 weeks and of those, 352 were positive. A positivity rate of 2.81%.

Hi Lillyfae, thanks for your searching this more detailed dataset!

My understanding new_tests column in this data data is all C19 tests done across the coutry. But circumstances in which tests was done matters. I see three major scenarios:

test taken on just average group people from the street to evaluate number asypmtomatic cases in the society
test taken on people with high risk of exposure (medical staff, shop workers, garda etc) as regular measure
test taken at GPs or in the hospitals on patients developed symptoms

In all three cases percentage will be significantly different.
If you would evaluate COVID fatality ratio in the morgue you would get 100% COVID patients died.

Tests within cluster school-related people is clearly p.1

Therefore i think comparing nationwide new cases stats to the population of the country is more correct evaluation until we have no coutry-wide p.1 stats.

Also i'd assume two things:

all patients who has developed symptoms are having test done as a must. At least it should be...
All positive tests automatically becoming new cases, may be not immediately

What is looking interesting in that stats, for period of last two months (between 18-Aug and 18-Oct) there was 2K+ new cases more than positive tests. Not sure what could this mean either some patients were considered C19-positive with no test done or these were hospitalised past C19-phase because of severe subsequences (C19 does not make much harm itself, damage happens when virus is already gone and immune system starts damaging body). In the latter case this should point insufficient amount of testing.

wirelessdude01 · 22-10-2020 11:50AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

If schools are closed during the year, say in winter for a couple, then open an extra 2 weeks later in the summer, why would it be more money? There would be less usage of electricity and heating surely.

Well anecdotally I know some schools have told staff that they will expect teachers to still come in if students are not allowed in the school building. Insurance still has to be paid.

Look I'm not arguing the toss with you, just making the point that our debt are quite intransigent and don't like change.

meeeeh · 22-10-2020 11:52AM

irishblessing wrote: »

I literally put it in bold for you already. You can't miss it. Simple fact he 100% commented on Ireland, so you're wrong there too.

That's not his statement. I know what someone wrote about it but I would like to see direct quote Dr Fauci made. All I can see he said that it is hard to keep schools open when spread is out of control. That's different to what you claim or journalist in Sindo claims (surprise surprise there).

JDD · 22-10-2020 11:54AM

Our primary school have agreed that the kids can take their school books home with them tomorrow. The official line was that "in the unlikely event" that a decision was made to close schools for longer than the one week mid term break children will be given their school books tomorrow. So at least our principal is considering closure as a possibility.

I agree that secondary schools should be closed in the first instance, as secondary students are more able to work online independently. My senior infanter has basically just finished re-learning all the topics that we "covered" from March to June. So she'll start covering the senior infants curriculum after the mid term break. If there is a further disruption, say schools closing until Christmas, that'd be a fair whack of the year that would have to be caught up with - basically all of the senior infants curriculum that would have been taught from September to Christmas.

I'm not saying extending the school year isn't a good idea. But I think it would take more than an extra three weeks during the summer and an extra week at Easter.

sideswipe · 22-10-2020 11:55AM

**Checks in

See's the discussion is now come around to opening the schools next summer.

**Checks out

Thats me · 22-10-2020 11:57AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Does anyone think it would be a good idea for primary schools, if they need to close for a few weeks, that they just try and make it up at other times?

I think any schools must be closed on the Level 5. When and how they make up is different question.

Lillyfae · 22-10-2020 12:03PM

Thats me wrote: »

Hi Lillyfae, thanks for your searching this more detailed dataset!

My understanding new_tests column in this data data is all C19 tests done across the coutry. But circumstances in which tests was done matters. I see three major scenarios:
test taken on just average group people from the street to evaluate number asypmtomatic cases in the society

test taken on people with high risk of exposure (medical staff, shop workers, garda etc) as regular measure

test taken at GPs or in the hospitals on patients developed symptoms

In all three cases percentage will be significantly different.
If you would evaluate COVID fatality ratio in the morgue you would get 100% COVID patients died.

Tests within cluster school-related people is clearly p.1

Therefore i think comparing nationwide new cases stats to the population of the country is more correct evaluation until we have no coutry-wide p.1 stats.

Also i'd assume two things:
all patients who has developed symptoms are having test done as a must. At least it should be...

All positive tests automatically becoming new cases, may be not immediately

What is looking interesting in that stats, for period of last two months (between 18-Aug and 18-Oct) there was 2K+ new cases more than positive tests. Not sure what could this mean either some patients were considered C19-positive with no test done or these were hospitalised past C19-phase because of severe subsequences (C19 does not make much harm itself, damage happens when virus is already gone and immune system starts damaging body). In the latter case this should point insufficient amount of testing.

That's all fine but has absolutely nothing to do with the numbers I was quoting yesterday.

Your own assumptions I have bolded here- opinions have nothing to do with facts. Assumptions are useless in science.

Thats me · 22-10-2020 12:05PM

Lillyfae wrote: »

Your own assumptions I have bolded here- opinions have nothing to do with facts.

OK, i'm waiting for facts.

Lillyfae · 22-10-2020 12:23PM

Thats me wrote: »

OK, i'm waiting for facts.

.

Lillyfae wrote: »

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus/country/ireland?country=~IRL

According to this, there were 675973 tests carried out over the last 8 weeks. Of those tests, 24535 were positive. The positivity rate of those tested was 3.63%.

According to the Irish Times, 12500 tests were carried out *in schools* over 8 weeks and of those, 352 were positive. A positivity rate of 2.81%.

Schools closed until February? (part 3)

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