Edwin Poots

maccored · 19-10-2020 7:14pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

The biggest barrier for the next 100- 200 years will be the unionists kicking up after any border poll, there will be killings for sure. That will take generations to fizzle out, no one reading this now will see the day I reckon.

In around 300 years time no one will care any more and you will have the odd loyalist onclave around Larne or out Strangford. There will be some sort of dispensation given and a united Ireland will literally trickle over the line. It will be no biggie either at that point.

But giving out about tulips like Edwin Poots as if it is some sort of a thing is pointless, he is just drumming a few votes and whipping up fear, that's what politicians do.

how are the unionists going to manage to kill anyone without the help of the british government and the security forces? Or is this your answer - give in to the unionists or else they'll attack?

Theres a certain ilk of posters on here who should just come out clean and admit they are unionists. Theres no harm in being one, but this pretence is just laughable.

maccored · 19-10-2020 7:17pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

thats it, its like a lad on the dole wanting a rolls Royce, it seems brilliant till you think about how utterly unaffordable it is.

if someone really wanted one, then they'd put the work in and get one.

Ive no idea how you can talk of 'unaffordable' when the subject hasnt even been discussed at a national level. Theres no plan as yet as to what a UI will look like, so the idea of the republic buying up the north is a bit silly.

Junkyard Tom · 19-10-2020 7:17pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

unionists kicking up after any border poll, there will be killings for sure.

For what?

That's a simple question I've been asking on boards.ie for a decade and not one person has given me anything approaching a cogent answer.

Have a go yourself and see how you get on.

IAMAMORON · 19-10-2020 7:34pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

For what?

That's a simple question I've been asking on boards.ie for a decade and not one person has given me anything approaching a cogent answer.

Have a go yourself and see how you get on.

I guarantee that given their history that you find more than a handful of intransigent loyalists who will not take kindly to the border poll, if and when it happens. There will be mass protests, riots, the works. That is before the sectarian shootings start and the bomb scares and the business boycotting and the etc etc etc.

I think another poster on the map thread alluded to the Ulster Scots provision being a throw in to the GFA to appease Unionists. I think it is fair to say that the border poll was the same to appease nationalists. I mean it cannot even happen without approval from Westminster?

Even when northern nationalists start kicking up because the British government start kicking the concept down the street there will be trouble. You know this.

Junkyard Tom · 19-10-2020 7:58pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

There will be mass protests, riots, the works. That is before the sectarian shootings start and the bomb scares and the business boycotting and the etc etc etc.

For what?

IAMAMORON · 19-10-2020 8:10pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

For what?

I have answered the question. There is no need to get pedantic because you are not satisfied with the answer.

As soon as any lobbying for a border poll starts getting escalated tensions will go ballistic.

You know this.

Junkyard Tom · 19-10-2020 8:23pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I have answered the question

You haven't answered what aims would be behind the rioting/shooting. Lets say Unionists form a paramilitary group and come up with a list of demands. Can you give me some clue as to what they might be?

Re-partition for a Unionist homeland in Ireland? Where? Unionists are a minority in Belfast, Derry and four of the six counties.

IAMAMORON · 19-10-2020 8:28pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

You haven't answered what aims would be behind the rioting/shooting. Lets say Unionists form a paramilitary group and come up with a list of demands. Can you give me some clue as to what they might be?

Re-partition for a Unionist homeland in Ireland? Where? Unionists are a minority in Belfast, Derry and four of the six counties.

That is exactly what their aim will be. I would not take it lightly either. They will kick up bigtime.

Tbh I am not an expert in paramilitary activity, but yes, I doubt it will take a fortnight for loyalist paramilitaries to come out the alleys and kick off.

Junkyard Tom · 19-10-2020 8:40pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

That is exactly what their aim will be.

Try thinking it through, it's unworkable. The British state wouldn't want it, the Irish state wouldn't want it. Catholics/Nationalists would resist it vigorously with support from all over Ireland and the rest of the World.

The majority of Protestants/Unionists would know it's over and would just want to get on with it.

When there's a pro-UI vote NI is history. Irish Unionism will have to go all-Ireland or cease to exist.

IAMAMORON · 19-10-2020 8:53pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Try thinking it through, it's unworkable. The British state wouldn't want it, the Irish state wouldn't want it. Catholics/Nationalists would resist it vigorously with support from all over Ireland and the rest of the World.

The majority of Protestants/Unionists would know it's over and would just want to get on with it.

When there's a pro-UI vote NI is history. Irish Unionism will have to go all-Ireland or cease to exist.

I doubt it will get as far as a vote. I would say the UDA or UVF strategy would be to start murdering catholics beforehand. it makes the most sense. Once the trouble kicked off again nationalist paramilitries will get their hands forced. They ( the UDA ) did the exact same thing in the 60's.

I agree that most British MP's want rid of the north, but they cannot be seen to be acting in that way. As soon as the violence kicked off you are into the army being redeployed etc etc. It sounds awful but hardline loyalists won't care.

If unionists were at all interested in a republic you would see more evidence of this. For example there would be no bullshight around language provisions or education and domestic policy etc.

More likely I could see a more autonomous 6 county NI developing over the next 100 years. Nationalist rights will improve, language etc, it will be governed by concession. But there will be hard lines, and a full 32 county republic will be one of them. Any mootings of a border poll will cause eruptions on the streets, everyone knows this.

osarusan · 19-10-2020 8:54pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Try thinking it through, it's unworkable.

That wouldn't stop them though. Even if there is no achievable aim, apart from maybe the deluded idea that they could somehow cause enough carnage to stop the results of a border poll being enacted, that wouldn't stop them.

I don't think it would be widespread at all - there would not many of them, but it only needs a tiny number to wreak havoc. There need be no other aim than to go out in a sectarian blaze of glory.

Junkyard Tom · 19-10-2020 9:24pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I doubt it will get as far as a vote. I would say the UDA or UVF strategy would be to start murdering catholics beforehand.

So they make the non-unionist majority frightened and energise the the pro-UI vote and end up with the result they were trying to prevent.

osarusan wrote: »

That wouldn't stop them though. Even if there is no achievable aim ... go out in a sectarian blaze of glory.

So basically just go on a mindless rampage of murder?

It doesn't make sense, it would just create more grief for their own communities.

IAMAMORON · 19-10-2020 9:49pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So they make the non-unionist majority frightened and energise the the pro-UI and end up with the result they were trying to stop.

In an ideal world yes, but it will not be that simple. I am not trying to patronise you here, but you need to see both sides when exercising a logic around it. Put simply it will only take a handful of murdering bad chunts to escalate violence again.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So basically just go on a mindless rampage of murder?

It doesn't make sense, it would just create more grief for their own communities.

I agree, but there was no sense in how it escalated before either. All it takes is a few sectarian murders here or there and things would deteriorate rapidly.

It needs another few generations of peace before it can improve. There are still remnants of hate that have not washed away. Take say Arlene Foster as an example, her father was shot by the RA. That might get forgiven by her.... but she'll never forget it. She will not forget a bomb on her way to school either. This cuts both ways, there are still too many scars from the troubles to leave families and victims without spite. That is a reality that only time can heal.

osarusan · 19-10-2020 9:55pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

So basically just go on a mindless rampage of murder?

It doesn't make sense, it would just create more grief for their own communities.

It doesn't make sense, and would achieve nothing, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't do it.

Now, if we are talking say 30 years from now, when the old loyalist gang leaders are dead and gone, things may well be different.

19-10-2020 10:06pm

Anyone remember the BLM protests. Large groups of people all over the western world out protesting in large groups.

Junkyard Tom · 19-10-2020 10:12pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

I am not trying to patronise you here, but you need to see both sides when exercising a logic around it.

Logic is logic, it doesn't have two sides.

Put simply it will only take a handful of murdering bad chunts to escalate violence again.

Escalate presumes that there would be retaliation by Republicans, to that prediction I would pose the same questions. Who would they shoot in retaliation and what would they hope to achieve?

I agree, but there was no sense in how it escalated before either.

The Provos original actions were largely defensive, thousands of gun battles to keep the BA out of their communities so as to prevent being disarmed. The British did actually consider pulling out of the North and it was a theoretically achievable (if over-ambitious) goal.

Thatcher even threatened to pull out British troops after the Ballygawley bus bombing in a very colonial mask-slipping manner.

There are still remnants of hate that have not washed away. Take say Arlene Foster as an example, her father was shot by the RA. That might get forgiven by her.... but she'll never forget it. She will not forget a bomb on her way to school either. This cuts both ways, there are still too many scars from the troubles to leave families and victims without spite. That is a reality that only time can heal.

That friction will be there for generations, centuries even. No serious person predicts a Coke advert ending to all this.

trashcan · 19-10-2020 10:17pm

endacl wrote: »

I always hear ‘Edwin Poots’ as a phrase, not a name

Very good. The verb to poot.

Quantum Erasure · 20-10-2020 2:27am

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

For what?

‘Our demand is a very simple one. We ask for no privileges, but we are determined that no one shall have privileges over us. We ask for no special rights, but we claim the same rights from the same government as every other part of the United Kingdom. We ask for nothing more; it is our inalienable right as citizens of the United Kingdom, and Heaven help the men who try and take it from us.’

Mad_maxx · 20-10-2020 9:36am

osarusan wrote: »

That wouldn't stop them though. Even if there is no achievable aim, apart from maybe the deluded idea that they could somehow cause enough carnage to stop the results of a border poll being enacted, that wouldn't stop them.

I don't think it would be widespread at all - there would not many of them, but it only needs a tiny number to wreak havoc. There need be no other aim than to go out in a sectarian blaze of glory.

a loyalist terror campaign is something we are going to have to deal with eventually anyway , its a question of when , not if

eventually London will tire of propping up northern ireland , brexit shows that the population never cared enough about it as northern ireland was reason enough alone to vote to remain in the EU but they never considered it

im totally in favour of a united ireland and firmly believe it would be an economic boon , markets love nothing more than borders coming down , i do not believe it is unaffordable and it would be a huge boost to northern ireland , no london government looses out by ignoring northern ireland economically because no one in northern ireland votes either tory or labour , they are the easiest people in the entire UK to take for granted

im also by the way in favour of us rejoining the commonwealth tomorrow as a way of showing unionists that we are not anti british , the commonwealth is a harmless club of nations , canada are members and they are about as british as michael healy rae , the centuries of british oppression is not reason to say NO to rejoining we would do so now from a position of strength

its reasonable to provide assurances to unionists and the commonwealth is a simple token of friendship

NIMAN · 20-10-2020 9:38am

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone remember the BLM protests. Large groups of people all over the western world out protesting in large groups.

SSssshhh..

Not allowed to mention that. They were allowed to spread the virus, in fact Leo even tweeted his delight they marched.

But every other march or grouping of people = BAD!

Politicians aren't stupid. Very few condemned those BLM marches, for fear of political suicide and the mob coming after you calling you a racist.

FTA69 · 20-10-2020 12:14pm

Junkyard Tom is right too though. The idea of some massive Loyalist armed campaign acting as the IRA in reverse so to speak won’t happen. The way the demographics are in the Six Counties, it wouldn’t be feasible. What are you going to have? An independent North Down and Antrim? If we get to that point you’ll probably have a majority of Protestants who will be resigned to the idea and most people there will be happy with continued devolution and cultural protections etc. People on about Republican paramilitary responses etc are deluded. The remnants of armed Republicanism are tiny and uninfluential and if we’re in a situation of unity being facilitated they won’t even serve a political purpose.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see a period of unrest that having been said, similar to the fleg protests etc but you won’t have a massive civil war because there’s no feasible end goal for it. Even that will peter out in a short time I think. Likewise I wouldn’t be surprised to see people moving to Scotland etc but you’ll be looking at a very small and embittered group of people who will do so.

IAMAMORON · 20-10-2020 1:03pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

im also by the way in favour of us rejoining the commonwealth tomorrow as a way of showing unionists that we are not anti british , the commonwealth is a harmless club of nations , canada are members and they are about as british as michael healy rae , the centuries of british oppression is not reason to say NO to rejoining we would do so now from a position of strength

its reasonable to provide assurances to unionists and the commonwealth is a simple token of friendship

I think this is a great idea and I cannot see why it wasn't done years ago. Even at a token level. The only reason we left before was to appease more fanatical republican nationalists who were hell bent on a clean break. Idealistic flutes like Dev etc. Sure that phucker fancied us hanging around the crossroads swapping spuds. They were building motorways in the UK and we were walking barefoot under clowns like him.

Re-joining the commonwealth makes business sense and would certainly go a long way towards soothing Brexit concerns. It certainly would not get in the way of self determination, which for me is what having a United Ireland should be all about.

It is the actions of a few madser fanatics that has us in the Quagmire we are in. If we could take our heads out of the swamp we might see a brighter future for everyone. That makes more sense to me and might be something worth it.

arctictree · 20-10-2020 2:14pm

I think in reality what will happen is that we will enter a period of a nationalist majority in the assembly (and yes, I know how the voting structure works) and uber co-operation with the Republic. We could even end up in a situation with a Sinn Fein first minister and a Sinn Fein Taoiseach. The country would in effect be run as one and Sinn Fein will bide their time and only run a border poll when they are confident of a win.

Zebra3 · 20-10-2020 2:35pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It was considerably worse. A full scale public funeral by law makers breaking their own rules.

The other parties should have walked away from the assembly for a display of absolute gross negligence by a party obviously unfit to govern.

There is no if/buts/maybes. And not ONE of them resigned or was pushed out.

How many resignations over this?

https://www.independent.ie/videos/gardai-line-the-streets-for-colm-horkans-funeral-39303434.html

Are these people fit to police us?

NIMAN · 20-10-2020 3:28pm

FTA69 wrote: »

I wouldn’t be surprised to see people moving to Scotland etc but you’ll be looking at a very small and embittered group of people who will do so.

Like Arlene.

I am not just being pedantic in saying this, she actually said she'd leave the country in the case of a united Ireland.

Think it was a Paddy Kielty documentary on BBC NI a couple of years back.

IAMAMORON · 20-10-2020 3:34pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Like Arlene.

I am not just being pedantic in saying this, she actually said she'd leave the country in the case of a united Ireland.

Think it was a Paddy Kielty documentary on BBC NI a couple of years back.

Where do you think she has her eye on?

In fairness if I was living near Lisnaskea I would be looking to move also:pac::pac:

cameramonkey · 20-10-2020 3:38pm

IAMAMORON wrote: »

That is exactly what their aim will be. I would not take it lightly either. They will kick up bigtime.

Tbh I am not an expert in paramilitary activity, but yes, I doubt it will take a fortnight for loyalist paramilitaries to come out the alleys and kick off.

There might be trouble all right but then again they might see the writing on the wall like the Boers in South Africa, I mean things are only going one way and they need to make an accommodation with the people on the rest of the Island at some stage.

A big problem for Loyalist terrorists will be that unlike last time they will not have the support of the British Army, MI5 and the RUC in carrying out their attack. they will not be supplied with weapons or intelligence information and will not be directed by the UK security forces this time. In fact they UK security services may actually act against them. Without the support of the British military, intelligence and police they would be much easier to deal with.
If you look at Unionist terror organisations the caliber of their members would not be great and they have diversified much more into drug dealing and other forms of crime.

IAMAMORON · 20-10-2020 3:47pm

cameramonkey wrote: »

There might be trouble all right but then again they might see the writing on the wall like the Boers in South Africa, I mean things are only going one way and they need to make an accommodation with the people on the rest of the Island at some stage.

A big problem for Loyalist terrorists will be that unlike last time they will not have the support of the British Army, MI5 and the RUC in carrying out their attack. they will not be supplied with weapons or intelligence information and will not be directed by the UK security forces this time. In fact they UK security services may actually act against them. Without the support of the British military, intelligence and police they would be much easier to deal with.
If you look at Unionist terror organisations the caliber of their members would not be great and they have diversified much more into drug dealing and other forms of crime.

Yeah, your probably right. They will just bow down to their nationalist neighbours and accept a united Ireland with a wry smile. They will give up singing phuck the pope also. I can see them giving up the bonfires and the summer marching too, they are sound like that.

NIMAN · 20-10-2020 3:56pm

Found it, 25:20 into it.

FTA69 · 20-10-2020 4:08pm

She may well do. Some Republicans have this notion of Unionists as deluded dupes but at the end of the day they’re as sincere in their beliefs as anyone else. Foster grew up in an isolated border Protestant community, her local church is filled with graves of people killed by the IRA. They attempted to kill her father as well. Stuff like that runs very deep.

Equally most Irish Unionists are also intensely attached to where they’re from. They have little to no equivalent in Britain itself. I’m working with a large group of binmen in London one of whom is a staunch Loyalist and they all call him “Irish Mark” and see no difference between him and me.

A few will probably leave, but most will get on with things I think. Perhaps the only equivalent they have is in Scotland but there is also a very real possibility of Scottish independence looming again. If Scotland becomes independent then the jig is up completely. The Brits will be immediately onto the Dublin government and putting a framework in place I’d say.

Edwin Poots

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