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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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  • #2642
    pconn062
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,370 ✭✭✭pconn062


    walus wrote: »
    Very sad to hear that. My own grandad died on the 06/10 in very similar circumstances. No one was allowed to see him in his last two months of life. He was not allowed to go out and attend a funeral of his dear wife that only died 2 months earlier. Both were 89 and did not die with Covid.

    It's actually shameful that situations like this are allowed to happen. Absolutely shameful. Similar to dad's to be been kept out of delivery rooms when their partner's are in labour. What kind of society thinks it's fair to keep an elderly wife or husband away from their dying spouse, dying in a hospital with no one beside them but staff?


  • #2643
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,627 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    faceman wrote: »
    A lockdown by any other name is still a lockdown

    The only country in Europe to back in to a 2nd lockdown.

    30 people in ICU in a country of 4.5m putting the health system on the verge of collapse

    The government has failed

    https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1317787092232142849?s=09

    So Ireland citizens, having been under the most restrictions in Europe sine June, will tomorrow increase the level of restrictions on its citizens.

    What a place to be


  • #2644
    Lundstram
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Lundstram


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    We HAVE MM and Donnelly precisely because of the "great" job Leo, Harris and the rest did.. let's not forget that. We also have the situation of the NPHET-tail wagging the Government-dog because of Leo too.

    Harris stepped up during the crisis I'll grant you, but Leo's main contribution was to look serious at press briefings and quote movies

    And the reason we switched midway is because Leo and co didn't want to be accountable for the decisions now having to be made (as evidenced by the effects on the polls and why some are lamenting the "good ole days" under FG), but they're planning to be positioned as the rescuers of the country when the dust has (they're hoping!) settled on this.
    If our electoral system was different, we'd have Sinn Fein in charge right now. Would you prefer them? They backed off when the sh1t hit the fan, FG could have done the same but they didn't. As I said, they're not perfect but you can't really throw them under the bus for their handling of it back in March.

    Communication is a big part of Leo's brief and he does it well, very well. That interview with Claire Byrne was politcking 101. He knows his audience. MM flops his hands around like an octopus while Donnelly goes off on tangents about trampolines. Two spineless idiots.

    The public wanted SF or FF running this country, you could say we deserve what we are getting now.

    Yes, I'm bias. I'm a FG man but you cannot deny they had this country in very very good shape before March 2020 but that wasn't good enough for the majority of our voters.


  • #2645
    Happydays2020
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭Happydays2020


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    Let nobody be under the impression Christmas can go ahead under any circumstances in Ireland.

    People must sit at home on Christmas Day with no visitors awaiting Tony’s message of doom in the late evening.

    He will address the nation from Government Buildings


  • #2646
    thebaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,865 ✭✭✭✭thebaz


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    The father of one of my friends is currently in hospital, a well loved man in his 90's who unfortunately has seen his health get worse over the past few years. He is not in hospital with covid.

    Nobody is allowed in to see him. Nobody allowed to visit, his family not allowed to be with him, his wife not allowed to sit with him. This poor man is going to die alone in a room in a hospital.

    How is that right? How is that humane? What sort of sick ****ing society are we letting develop here that a man who worked hard all his life is left to die alone in a room without his family?

    This is what you get when you allow single issue idiots with no nuance or perspective to dictacte public policy, you get half assed bullshit measures that serve no purpose but are in place because those in charge both cannot see the woods for the trees and are also isolated from their decisions.

    Such a sad post to read , people who question the zero-Covid startegy of NPHET are labeled selfish, but ther are many other issues in society other than Covid - But our new returning leader Dr Holohon only sees one problem, and one way of solving it, regardless that it destroys the rest of society.
    We all should know the new lockdown is not going to create zero cases of Covid in Ireland in 6 weeks, it will be extended , extended until we suddenly realise the carnage the stategy is causing, its not as if the HSE is renowned for superb innovation, every winter the hospitals are over-crowded, how many new ICU beds were created during summer ?.


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  • #2647
    JRant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,200 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    thebaz wrote: »
    Such a sad post to read , people who question the zero-Covid startegy of NPHET are labeled careless, but ther are many other issues in society other than Covid - But our new returning leader Dr Holohon only sees one problem, and one way of solving it, regardless that it destroys the rest of society.
    We all should know the new lockdown is not going to create zero cases of Covid in Ireland in 6 weeks, it will be extended , extended until we suddenly realise the carnage the stategy is causing, its not as if the HSE is renowned for superb innovation, every winter the hospitals are over-crowded, how many new ICU beds were created during summer ?.

    Cervical Tony reminds me of the old saying "if all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail".

    This lockdown will be a complete disaster for 100's of thousands of people but that doesn't seem to be taken into account in these decisions.

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • #2648
    Happydays2020
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭Happydays2020


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    The father of one of my friends is currently in hospital, a well loved man in his 90's who unfortunately has seen his health get worse over the past few years. He is not in hospital with covid.

    Nobody is allowed in to see him. Nobody allowed to visit, his family not allowed to be with him, his wife not allowed to sit with him. This poor man is going to die alone in a room in a hospital.

    How is that right? How is that humane? What sort of sick ****ing society are we letting develop here that a man who worked hard all his life is left to die alone in a room without his family?

    This is what you get when you allow single issue idiots with no nuance or perspective to dictacte public policy, you get half assed bullshit measures that serve no purpose but are in place because those in charge both cannot see the woods for the trees and are also isolated from their decisions.

    A friend in Germany is in the same position with his mother. He is allowed to go in once a week and they give him PPE. That is compassion.

    But does anyone expect compassion from his lordship?


  • #2649
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ShyMets wrote: »
    Nox is a great man for following the restrictions when they suit him

    I’ve followed the restrictions to the letter, in fact I’ve gone far beyond them in most cases and practiced what I thought the restrictions should have stayed as I.e. not meeting friends, not going to pubs or restaurants when they were open etc.

    I’ve no idea where you are getting the idea I am not following the restrictions.


  • #2650
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    pconn062 wrote: »
    It's actually shameful that situations like this are allowed to happen. Absolutely shameful. Similar to dad's to be been kept out of delivery rooms when their partner's are in labour.?

    This is not true even though people keep saying it. They are not into labour wards etc but once in the delivery room the partners are allowed in.

    I am not denying that this need to be look at so that the partners could be there all the time, all they would have to do it test them but it’s not true to say they are missing births.


  • #2651
    FintanMcluskey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,627 ✭✭✭FintanMcluskey


    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-54573288

    “ But she was hopeful that by 2022 there would be no need for people to wear face masks, and was more confident that we could be bringing in 2022 with family gatherings and parties.”

    Someone from the vaccine committee in the Uk.(the vaccine that will neither prevent infection or serious symptoms)

    Bleak stuff.

    Sweden are really going to see an influx of immigrants over the next few months


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  • #2652
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bucketybuck wrote: »
    The father of one of my friends is currently in hospital, a well loved man in his 90's who unfortunately has seen his health get worse over the past few years. He is not in hospital with covid.

    Nobody is allowed in to see him. Nobody allowed to visit, his family not allowed to be with him, his wife not allowed to sit with him. This poor man is going to die alone in a room in a hospital.

    How is that right? How is that humane? What sort of sick ****ing society are we letting develop here that a man who worked hard all his life is left to die alone in a room without his family?

    This is what you get when you allow single issue idiots with no nuance or perspective to dictacte public policy, you get half assed bullshit measures that serve no purpose but are in place because those in charge both cannot see the woods for the trees and are also isolated from their decisions.

    I am not going to deny anything you have said is not very very hard on everyone involved.

    My only comment and it’s not to cause an argument. If we were to open up the country like you and many others want and then try to protect the vulnerable I don’t see how this situation could change much as in an open up scenario the hospitals would have to be as controlled if not more controlled due to much more covid in the community in order to protect the vulnerable.


  • #2653
    hynesie08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭hynesie08


    FintanMcluskey wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-54573288

    “ But she was hopeful that by 2022 there would be no need for people to wear face masks, and was more confident that we could be bringing in 2022 with family gatherings and parties.”

    Someone from the vaccine committee in the Uk.(the vaccine that will neither prevent infection or serious symptoms)

    Bleak stuff.

    Sweden are really going to see an influx of immigrants over the next few months

    Good luck to them, that place is a **** hole.


  • #2654
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,606 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    3xh wrote: »
    If these are Sweden’s total weekly figures for a population of 10m, you will admit they’re good figures? And better than ours.


    I would not look at any exponential rise in numbers as good anywhere.
    If they were on a like for like basis then the would be better than ours, but if you look at the start of the rise in new cases for both, Sweden is around two week behind us.
    Even regardless of that it does not say a lot for this naturally acquired herd immunity that Sweden were chasing with those numbers. Especially where up until the week ending 11 October 35% of their new cases were in Stockholm, their epicenter for the earlier cases.


  • #2655
    hynesie08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭hynesie08


    Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »
    I am not going to deny anything you have said is not very very hard on everyone involved.

    My only comment and it’s not to cause an argument. If we were to open up the country like you and many others want and then try to protect the vulnerable I don’t see how this situation could change much as in an open up scenario the hospitals would have to be as controlled if not more controlled due to much more covid in the community in order to protect the vulnerable.

    This is a reasonable point actually...... Hospitals need to be clean zones at the best of times, even if we were at level 1, there needs to be extra effort put into balancing the physical and mental care involved. Unfortunately like everything else they just labelled it 1-5 and filed it away.


  • #2656
    Nonoperational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,401 ✭✭✭Nonoperational


    Happydays2020 wrote: »
    A friend in Germany is in the same position with his mother. He is allowed to go in once a week and they give him PPE. That is compassion.

    But does anyone expect compassion from his lordship?

    I must say I have worked in two large hospitals here during covid, two of the largest in the country, and in both, dying and critically ill patients can absolutely have family in to visit. It's coordinated between the family and the CNM in charge.


  • #2657
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,653 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Time to get the cans in?


  • #2658
    walus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭walus


    MelbourneMan wrote: »
    'Christmas' could go ahead in some form, but the price would be too high either before, after, or both, economically to justify it at a level 1 or 2 type situation.
    It would require a Level 5+ lock down at this stage for 5-6 weeks in the run in to it. There are vibes that this is why the govt delayed, and is still toying with delaying the strong lockdown for another week. Going too early could lead to a very bad situation in February or so. Certainly, a no restriction Christmas has no possibility of happening. The challenge is to maintain a Level 2-3 status for that period, and that was what was hoped for. It is looking increasingly unlikely or costly at this stage however. Christmas is a worryingly problematic issue in itself now.

    Summer holidays couldn’t go ahead because the government had no balls to open up the country as they sat and watch the number of cases and deaths fall. Now it seems that Christmas will be a car crash whatever level or combination of various restrictions we are on at the time. Procrastination on making a call on the former is the cause for the latter.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • #2659
    walus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭walus


    pconn062 wrote: »
    It's actually shameful that situations like this are allowed to happen. Absolutely shameful. Similar to dad's to be been kept out of delivery rooms when their partner's are in labour. What kind of society thinks it's fair to keep an elderly wife or husband away from their dying spouse, dying in a hospital with no one beside them but staff?

    It does not end there. While I could attend the first funeral, I could not be at the grandad’s as at that stage Ryanair pulled the flights and I could not get there in time. The chain of cause-and-effect...

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • #2660
    Rrrrrr2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Rrrrrr2


    walus wrote: »
    Summer holidays couldn’t go ahead because the government had no balls to open up the country as they sat and watch the number of cases and death fall. Now it seems that Christmas will be a car crash whatever level or combination of various restrictions we are on at the time. Procrastination on making a call on the former is the cause for the latter.

    I’ve written off the whole lot personally and well into 2021 and beyond. Absolutely nothing is going to change in this **** show. Luckily I’ve lots of work projects to keep me very busy so will be getting stuck into those.
    I’m not that interested in fighting it anymore as the hypochondriacs have gotten their selfish way as appears to be the case since March over and over.
    I reckon shops etc will be closed for at least 2 months, my gym did mention they might be setting up zoom classes- they’re not great but better than nothing or waiting to die like most of the population seem to be resigned to.


  • #2661
    walus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭walus


    Rrrrrr2 wrote: »
    I’ve written off the whole lot personally and well into 2021 and beyond. Absolutely nothing is going to change in this **** show. Luckily I’ve lots of work projects to keep me very busy so will be getting stuck into those.
    I’m not that interested in fighting it anymore as the hypochondriacs have gotten their selfish way as appears to be the case since March over and over.
    I reckon shops etc will be closer for at least 2 months, my gym did mention they might be setting up zoom classes- they’re not great but better than nothing or waiting to die like most of the population seem to be resigned to.

    Yeah, I must get onto my gym and borrow some gear yet again tomorrow. I’ll be off to Sweden for Christmas though to get some normal life time.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



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  • #2662
    Rrrrrr2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Rrrrrr2


    walus wrote: »
    Yeah, I must get onto my gym and borrow some gear yet again tomorrow. I’ll be off to Sweden for Christmas though to get some normal life time.

    Yea our lot mentioned maybe letting people borrow some weights and stuff if forced to close down again.
    Been looking into going away to the sun to shorten the insanity and get away from this lunatic asylum. Looking at the flight bookings it appears a lot have the same idea. If you are retired or wfh it makes total sense


  • #2663
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,606 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Blut2 wrote: »
    @charlie14 you seem to have ignored the data that doesn't support your view. But you're still repeatedly posting about how Sweden doesn't have herd immunity. So how do you explain the above?



    We know with this virus deaths inevitably follow rising numbers. What those deaths will be are governed by those that are infected.
    Young and fit then they will be low. If they are elderly, have underlying conditions, health services not over-run etc. then they will be higher.
    Herd immunity is having so many immune that these will shield those unable to acquire immunity themselves. If you have herd immunity ideally you would have no rise in new cases, or at least have very low numbers.

    Sweden similar to the last surge look to be lagging behind most other countries by a few weeks, Ireland included, in the latest rise in cases, yet last week still had 4,749 new confirmed cases and 24 deaths.
    For herd immunity you would expect it to be most pronounced for your epicenter, but for week ending 11 October Stockholm had 35% of Sweden`s new cases.


    There may be a case to be made for Sweden having so many infection prior to this surge that it has resulted in some very limited immunity.
    But herd immunity with these new case, I`m afraid the number just do not support it.


  • #2664
    walus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭walus


    Just a thought, and half cooked at that, but is it possible that moving up the level(s) of restrictions we are indeed going to see the number of cases fall? I’m thinking that that is exactly what is going to happen. However considering the correlation vs causation issue my bet is that the real cause for the numbers to fall is going to be not the actual status of the spread of this virus but the fact that there will be much fewer people from the controlled environments (restaurants, pubs etc.) which are easy to trace more likely to be identified as positive. I would like to see how the positivity rate of testing changes along with level of restriction and time, as that could be an indication that what I’m saying might be correct. Fewer people to trace, lower positivity rate.
    I recon that the virus is going to continue to spread regardless and while the number of cases will fall they will shoot right back strongly when we relax the restrictions.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • #2665
    robbiezero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Michael McNamara has called in and is making complete sense, saying that people don't want their lives micromanaged by Government, that NPHET's level 5 call based on deaths yesterday which they then admitted had historical figures in there, and that the situation has gotten to where anyone questioning all this is painted as a heritic

    Can we make him Taoiseach?


    What is the story with deaths? Please correct me if I'm completely wrong below, I'm not really bothering with Covid stuff much these days.

    If we are testing people and hitting say a 5% positivity rate -
    we do 20K tests, we get 1K cases, the vast majority of which will have no more than a sniffle.
    If ~80 people die every day in Ireland, would we be expecting that 4/5 of those will have the Covid and that in some of those at least, the Covid would have had no impact?


  • #2666
    Rrrrrr2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Rrrrrr2


    walus wrote: »
    Just a thought, and half cooked at that, but is it possible that moving up the level(s) of restrictions we are indeed going to see the number of cases fall? I’m thinking that that is exactly what is going to happen. However considering the correlation vs causation issue my bet is that the real cause for the numbers to fall is going to be not the actual status of the spread of this virus but the fact that there will be much fewer people from the controlled environments (restaurants, pubs etc.) which are easy to trace more likely to be identified as positive. I would like to see how the positivity rate of testing changes along with level of restriction and time, as that could be an indication that what I’m saying might be correct.
    I recon that the virus is going to continue to spread regardless and while the number of cases will fall they will shoot right back strongly when we relax the restrictions.

    No I reckon case numbers are going to keep rising and rising. I see nothing to suggest otherwise given what we know about how it’s spread- ie domestic settings


  • #2667
    charlie14
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,606 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    robbiezero wrote: »
    What is the story with deaths? Please correct me if I'm completely wrong below, I'm not really bothering with Covid stuff much these days.

    If we are testing people and hitting say a 5% positivity rate -
    we do 20K tests, we get 1K cases, the vast majority of which will have no more than a sniffle.
    If ~80 people die every day in Ireland, would we be expecting that 4/5 of those will have the Covid and that in some of those at least, the Covid would have had no impact?


    It is not that simple though to calculate possible deaths from confirmed cases.
    If the are all young and no underlying conditions the number will be low. Aged (as we know this from nursing homes) or have underlying conditions the number will be much higher


  • #2668
    robbiezero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭robbiezero


    charlie14 wrote: »
    It is not that simple though to calculate possible deaths from confirmed cases.
    If the are all young and no underlying conditions the number will be low. Aged (as we know this from nursing homes) or have underlying conditions the number will be much higher

    I agree, so as per usual we are reporting the worst case scenario.
    I know they are at pains to say "Died with Covid" these days, but the impression given is "killed by Covid".


  • #2669
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,713 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Rrrrrr2 wrote: »
    No I reckon case numbers are going to keep rising and rising. I see nothing to suggest otherwise given what we know about how it’s spread- ie domestic settings

    Which is why we need to stop the mixing of houses along with the other restrictions. It can’t spread domestically if people are not mixing with other households.

    Due to the level of idiot in this country who won’t do it by being told we need to bring in curfews and fines for people breaking the restrictions and meeting in groups in houses etc.


  • #2670
    Rrrrrr2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Rrrrrr2


    walus wrote: »
    Summer holidays couldn’t go ahead because the government had no balls to open up the country as they sat and watch the number of cases and deaths fall. Now it seems that Christmas will be a car crash whatever level or combination of various restrictions we are on at the time. Procrastination on making a call on the former is the cause for the latter.

    Summer holidays won’t go ahead next year either- we are taking what, only 6-8 months away- absolutely nothing is changing in that time. If you can just get out of here maybe book closer to the time so you won’t get caught out of the latest prison dictats


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  • #2671
    Rrrrrr2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 982 ✭✭✭Rrrrrr2


    Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »
    Which is why we need to stop the mixing of houses along with the other restrictions. It can’t spread domestically if people are not mixing with other households.

    Due to the level of idiot in this country who won’t do it by being told we need to bring in curfews and fines for people breaking the restrictions and meeting in groups in houses etc.

    Yawn zzzzzz


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