Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

walus · 18-10-2020 10:42AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

While that is a rather biased and negative way to put it, essential, yes. A more reasonable description of the approach is flexible adaptation to the situation as it evolves to optimise overall outcomes. The concern about the disruption, hardship, and worry the crisis will cause is understandable. The irrational and unrealistic expectaction that the government should have a plan to avoid those problems is not. There is no solution at the moment. The model, and experience in implementing it is evolving in all countries, Ireland included, and a system of closed loop feedback of restrictions being raised and lowered according to various measurement data and prediction models, is a good as it gets for the forseeable.

Why what I say is biased? Negative? I’d say it is factual. They have proven that have abysmal decision making skills and the plan they came up with (4 months late) is useless as they tinker with it every 3 days.

MelbourneMan · 18-10-2020 10:48AM

walus wrote: »

Why what I say is biased? Negative? I’d say it is factual. They have proven that have abysmal decision making skills and the plan they came up with (4 months late) is useless as they tinker with it every 3 days.

Apologies. I took your use of the phrase "making it up as they go along" as inherently pejorative. But acknowledge you were not in fact criticising the approach.

rob316 · 18-10-2020 10:52AM

So ****ing pointless closing shops it will achieve nothing only hammer the last nail into retail and send the country further into the red.

I could take it some bit serious if we were closing schools too.

walus · 18-10-2020 10:55AM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

Apologies. I took your use of the phrase "making it up as they go along" as inherently pejorative. But acknowledge you were not in fact criticising the approach.

Thanks, no problem at all. I’m trying to think from a perspective of people who have businesses to run and who may see the vaccine as a cure to a complete lack of predictability of what the next week is going to bring. Same goes for our private and family lives.

Blut2 · 18-10-2020 11:05AM

Blut2 wrote: »

The deaths started dropping off in April - long before any summer holidays:

Again, for reference. So again - why did this happen, if not herd immunity? What explanation can you give for this if you're claiming its not herd immunity? Because its not from them implementing a lockdown.

@charlie14 you seem to have ignored the data that doesn't support your view. But you're still repeatedly posting about how Sweden doesn't have herd immunity. So how do you explain the above?

_Kaiser_ · 18-10-2020 11:14AM

I'm having a lazy morning and stuck on the radio and landed on R1

I've no idea who was speaking just now (Dan something) but his whole point is around dialing back the hysteria and looking at the wider picture and perspective. Also questions why we're doing things differently than other countries and being more restrictive than places that have more of a problem to deal with

Next speaker says that she has been in interviews where the balanced view is being deliberately rejected for the more dramatic statements etc. This would certainly fit with the overwhelming negativity in the coverage.

Very good discussion actually and surprisingly on R1 of all places

_Kaiser_ · 18-10-2020 11:30AM

Michael McNamara has called in and is making complete sense, saying that people don't want their lives micromanaged by Government, that NPHET's level 5 call based on deaths yesterday which they then admitted had historical figures in there, and that the situation has gotten to where anyone questioning all this is painted as a heritic

Can we make him Taoiseach?

Tenzor07 · 18-10-2020 11:33AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Michael McNamara has called in and is making complete sense, saying that people don't want their lives micromanaged by Government

Those who do want Government to micromanage their lives can emigrate to the People's Republic of Jacinda....
....though they most likely won't accept you...

_Kaiser_ · 18-10-2020 11:34AM

Anthony Staines on and takes a swipe at the "intellectual power" of the UK Conservative party in their response (very mature) and is advocating for zero covid.

Is now being comprehensively taken apart by Dan

Great show that everyone should listen back to.

faceman · 18-10-2020 11:34AM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Michael McNamara has called in and is making complete sense, saying that people don't want their lives micromanaged by Government, that NPHET's level 5 call based on deaths yesterday which they then admitted had historical figures in there, and that the situation has gotten to where anyone questioning all this is painted as a heritic

Can we make him Taoiseach?

McNamara is the only one asking the hard questions in an educated, rational manner. His chairing of the special committee hearings are well worth a watch. They’re on YouTube

facehugger99 · 18-10-2020 11:36AM

If anyone thinks these zero-covid zealots in NPHET will recommend going back to Level 2 restrictions in the run-up to Christmas, when our health service will be under it's usual winter-strain, they have simply not been paying attention.

I fear the Government will do what they have done throughout this mess. When faced with the choice of pissing away billions of our money or being labeled 'granny-killers on social media, there is no choice.

Expect to see hundreds of business sacrificed in the run up to Christmas and hundreds of thousands out of work.

As an electorate, we have only ourselves to blame for the generation of spineless cowards we find ourselves with.

_Kaiser_ · 18-10-2020 11:37AM

faceman wrote: »

McNamara is the only one asking the hard questions in an educated, rational manner. His chairing of the special committee hearings are well worth a watch. They’re on YouTube

Yep I've seen the ones in the other thread recently and watching the "experts" squirm and admit their entire means of quantifying of where we are with this disease is suspect is invaluable and not getting nearly enough coverage

faceman · 18-10-2020 11:43AM

Here’s what I don’t get. I’m not supposed to visit my parents right now. But I can book a hotel and party in the bar.

Apparently the bar in the Iveagh Gardens hotel was jammers last night with “residents”. There was a hen party there too.

I’m not pro-lockdown, level 3 is the guts of a lockdown for my line of work anyway. There is a massive disconnect here though.

18-10-2020 11:43AM

I see France have not introduced a curfew from 9pm to 6am yet I was told curfews are for North Korea? We need to implement similar with our level 5 and school closure as this really would help I’m stopping house parties etc. Severe fines for breaking curfew also.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm having a lazy morning and stuck on the radio and landed on R1

I've no idea who was speaking just now (Dan something) but his whole point is around dialing back the hysteria and looking at the wider picture and perspective. Also questions why we're doing things differently than other countries and being more restrictive than places that have more of a problem to deal with

Next speaker says that she has been in interviews where the balanced view is being deliberately rejected for the more dramatic statements etc. This would certainly fit with the overwhelming negativity in the coverage.

Very good discussion actually and surprisingly on R1 of all places

Do these people realise how dangerous it is to be undermining everything by downplaying the seriousness of this virus?

We need people trying to get the country to realise they have to respect the guidelines and not break the restrictions not people on giving people excuses to. Disgraceful really.

bush · 18-10-2020 11:45AM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

Do these people realise how dangerous it is to be undermining everything by downplaying the seriousness of this virus?

We need people trying to get the country to realise they have to respect the guidelines and not break the restrictions not people on giving people excuses to. Disgraceful really.

Paddygreen has nothing on you

FintanMcluskey · 18-10-2020 11:47AM

facehugger99 wrote: »

If anyone thinks these zero-covid zealots in NPHET will recommend going back to Level 2 restrictions in the run-up to Christmas, when our health service will be under it's usual winter-strain, they have simply not been paying attention.

Let nobody be under the impression Christmas can go ahead under any circumstances in Ireland.

People must sit at home on Christmas Day with no visitors awaiting Tony’s message of doom in the late evening.

_Kaiser_ · 18-10-2020 11:47AM

bush wrote: »

Paddygreen has nothing on you

I just ignore. There's no point. It highlights the point raised by one of the guests I referred to above and the dangers of one-sided catastrophising of this entire issue.

MelbourneMan · 18-10-2020 11:47AM

faceman wrote: »

Here’s what I don’t get. I’m not supposed to visit my parents right now. But I can book a hotel and party in the bar.

Apparently the bar in the Iveagh Gardens hotel was jammers last night with “residents”. There was a hen party there too.

I’m not pro-lockdown, level 3 is the guts of a lockdown for my line of work anyway. There is a massive disconnect here though.

I can explain this one. The aim of the restrictions is to reduce people's interactions. While booking a hotel and partying in the bar is possible, the number of interactions is still greatly reduce because the number of people who can or would book into a hotel is a tiny fraction of the people who would visit parents, family or whoever. Allowing hotels to function - for the moment - still allows some essential use of that service, even if it might be abused by some. But the number of abuses is insignificant in the overall picture.

ShyMets · 18-10-2020 11:47AM

bush wrote: »

Paddygreen has nothing on you

Nox is a great man for following the restrictions when they suit him

MelbourneMan · 18-10-2020 11:53AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Let nobody be under the impression Christmas can go ahead under any circumstances in Ireland.

People must sit at home on Christmas Day with no visitors awaiting Tony’s message of doom in the late evening.

'Christmas' could go ahead in some form, but the price would be too high either before, after, or both, economically to justify it at a level 1 or 2 type situation.
It would require a Level 5+ lock down at this stage for 5-6 weeks in the run in to it. There are vibes that this is why the govt delayed, and is still toying with delaying the strong lockdown for another week. Going too early could lead to a very bad situation in February or so. Certainly, a no restriction Christmas has no possibility of happening. The challenge is to maintain a Level 2-3 status for that period, and that was what was hoped for. It is looking increasingly unlikely or costly at this stage however. Christmas is a worryingly problematic issue in itself now.

bucketybuck · 18-10-2020 12:18PM

faceman wrote: »

Here’s what I don’t get. I’m not supposed to visit my parents right now. But I can book a hotel and party in the bar.

The father of one of my friends is currently in hospital, a well loved man in his 90's who unfortunately has seen his health get worse over the past few years. He is not in hospital with covid.

Nobody is allowed in to see him. Nobody allowed to visit, his family not allowed to be with him, his wife not allowed to sit with him. This poor man is going to die alone in a room in a hospital.

How is that right? How is that humane? What sort of sick ****ing society are we letting develop here that a man who worked hard all his life is left to die alone in a room without his family?

This is what you get when you allow single issue idiots with no nuance or perspective to dictacte public policy, you get half assed bullshit measures that serve no purpose but are in place because those in charge both cannot see the woods for the trees and are also isolated from their decisions.

faceman · 18-10-2020 12:30PM

MelbourneMan wrote: »

I can explain this one. The aim of the restrictions is to reduce people's interactions. While booking a hotel and partying in the bar is possible, the number of interactions is still greatly reduce because the number of people who can or would book into a hotel is a tiny fraction of the people who would visit parents, family or whoever. Allowing hotels to function - for the moment - still allows some essential use of that service, even if it might be abused by some. But the number of abuses is insignificant in the overall picture.

I get what you're saying. There seems to be a significant delta in what either the government or NPHET are allowing as a risk tolerance. (Although I suspect this is the government more so then NPHET)

What doesn't seem to be factored in is the optics. I assume its fair to say that there is more than 1 hotel up to this. The optics looks incredibly negative regardless of whether someone is pro or anti-lockdown and runs risk of a greater percentage of people who will flout the restrictions.

_Kaiser_ · 18-10-2020 12:32PM

Harris still thinks he's minister for Health

Minister for Further and Higher Education Simon Harris has said Level 3 Covid-19 restrictions are not working.

“The Government will act tomorrow. Action will be decisive and it will be right across the country,” he said.

Mr Harris said Government needed to balance restrictions “with our honest view on what people can bear or sustain”.

Just like Leo though, anything to get his name in the press! Not so good on actual delivery though, again just like his mate.

hamburgham · 18-10-2020 12:39PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Anthony Staines on and takes a swipe at the "intellectual power" of the UK Conservative party in their response (very mature) and is advocating for zero covid.

Is now being comprehensively taken apart by Dan

Great show that everyone should listen back to.

Have to second that. Couldn’t believe how much sense I was hearing, even some from Brendan and it was great to hear Dan taking out Anto.
Also Michael MaNamara has been fantastic.

Lundstram · 18-10-2020 12:42PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Harris still thinks he's minister for Health

Just like Leo though, anything to get his name in the press! Not so good on actual delivery though, again just like his mate.

Will have to disagree here. Leo and Harris were much more competent when they held the reins. MM and Donnelly do not inspire confidence in the slightest and are not at all reassuring when speaking to the public.

I still can't get my head around the fact we completely changed our cabinet in the middle of a pandemic. Also, Tony leaving and then swanning back in should have never been allowed to happen.

Strap in, folks. It's going to be a long and lonely winter for many people but that's fine 'cos we saved a few 84 year olds and extended their lives by 6 months. Crass? Maybe. Too much sacrifice for little gain.

_Kaiser_ · 18-10-2020 12:47PM

Lundstram wrote: »

Will have to disagree here. Leo and Harris were much more competent when they held the reins. MM and Donnelly do not inspire confidence in the slightest and are not at all reassuring when speaking to the public.

I still can't get my head around the fact we completely changed our cabinet in the middle of a pandemic. Also, Tony leaving and then swanning back in should have never been allowed to happen.

Strap in, folks. It's ging to be a long and lonely winter for many people but that's fine 'cos we saved a few 84 year olds and extended their lives by 6 months. Crass? Maybe. Too much sacrifice for little gain.

We HAVE MM and Donnelly precisely because of the "great" job Leo, Harris and the rest did.. let's not forget that. We also have the situation of the NPHET-tail wagging the Government-dog because of Leo too.

Harris stepped up during the crisis I'll grant you, but Leo's main contribution was to look serious at press briefings and quote movies

And the reason we switched midway is because Leo and co didn't want to be accountable for the decisions now having to be made (as evidenced by the effects on the polls and why some are lamenting the "good ole days" under FG), but they're planning to be positioned as the rescuers of the country when the dust has (they're hoping!) settled on this.

Ashleigh1986 · 18-10-2020 12:49PM

3 o clock on Christmas Day the Brits will be tuning into the queens speech ....while we will be watching " o holahans speech "....
THEY BOTH WILL BE TALKING BLL**** ABOUT .. "WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER "... One from their ivory tower the other from Buckingham palace .

walus · 18-10-2020 12:50PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

The father of one of my friends is currently in hospital, a well loved man in his 90's who unfortunately has seen his health get worse over the past few years. He is not in hospital with covid.

Nobody is allowed in to see him. Nobody allowed to visit, his family not allowed to be with him, his wife not allowed to sit with him. This poor man is going to die alone in a room in a hospital.

How is that right? How is that humane? What sort of sick ****ing society are we letting develop here that a man who worked hard all his life is left to die alone in a room without his family?

This is what you get when you allow single issue idiots with no nuance or perspective to dictacte public policy, you get half assed bullshit measures that serve no purpose but are in place because those in charge both cannot see the woods for the trees and are also isolated from their decisions.

Very sad to hear that. My own grandad died on the 06/10 in very similar circumstances. No one was allowed to see him in his last two months of life. He was not allowed to go out and attend a funeral of his dear wife that only died 2 months earlier. Both were 89 and did not die with Covid.

faceman · 18-10-2020 12:54PM

A lockdown by any other name is still a lockdown

The only country in Europe to back in to a 2nd lockdown.

30 people in ICU in a country of 4.5m putting the health system on the verge of collapse

The government has failed

https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1317787092232142849?s=09

Micky 32 · 18-10-2020 12:54PM

It will be great to see the logo change to “ stay at home” on the top right of our tv screens on RTE. Can’t wait, exciting stuff.....

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

Comments

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings