Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings

charlie14 · 17-10-2020 05:10PM

Blut2 wrote: »

Seems to be working out pretty well for them.

Especially considering their society is currently open, and not facing into more lockdowns of indefinite duration like Ireland. Other health services like cancer screening haven't collapsed, and mental health isn't suffering.

Like everywhere else during the earlier height of the epidemic they closed down much of their screening programmes and surgical services.
But that is not what I was asking.
In March the architect of their strategy Johan Giesecke said they would have herd immunity within a month or two. That was what I was referring to when I asked, how is that working out.

moonage · 17-10-2020 05:11PM

MadYaker wrote: »

Sweden's health minister says they are rolling out their vaccine program at the start of next year just like everyone else and over 70s are getting it first.

What exactly will the over 70s be getting in a few months time?

A vaccine that hasn't passed safety and efficay trials?

MadYaker · 17-10-2020 05:17PM

moonage wrote: »

What exactly will the over 70s be getting in a few months time?

A vaccine that hasn't passed safety and efficay trials?

The pfizer one looks like it might be ready to go by early/mid 2021. The swedes seem optimistic anyway https://www.thelocal.se/20201015/heres-in-what-order-stockholmers-will-get-vaccinated-for-coronavirus

What will slow down the rollout isn't vaccine development, that is almost done, its making the numbers of doses needed that will take time. Manufacturing vaccines isn't the same as manufacturing cars or even prescription drugs.

3xh · 17-10-2020 05:24PM

MadYaker wrote: »

He's being a bit obtuse alright but the point he is making is that we have no idea what the actual death rate is and we won't until this is over, all we have at the moment are guesses and estimates.

But we never will know. You need to know how many people had it to work out the death rate.

Doing the sum now or in 10 years doesn't change anything.

charlie14 · 17-10-2020 05:26PM

3xh wrote: »

You’re the kind of adult that would think buying an item with an inflated price tag but then a subsequent large discount applied is better value than a similarly priced item without a discount because ‘it was on sale’

Other, more patient posters here, have kindly tried to teach you something about statistics and how you’re wrong in your understanding of the death rate. It’s your prerogative to ignore them and keep harping on about how others are wrong instead.

Maybe somebody who thinks this covid stuff is all so deadly and level 5 is needed will PM you and tell you to stop embarrassing yourself.

Anyway, our to-and-fro is over before The Mod here comes in to tell us to stop.

You appear to have little understanding of how statistics are actually calculated.
When it comes to the ratio between two verified numbers, you can patiently sit watching both until you are blue in the face. It will not change the ratio of one to the other.

I would not really call it much of a to-and-fro on ratios though on that basis alone.
Anyway as I wont be hearing from you again, good luck and mind yourself.

17-10-2020 05:32PM

charlie14 wrote: »

I really wasn`t that interested in when you expected vaccines to be available or whether you will avail of it or not.

What I was interested in is after me humoring you, that you would do the same as to my question of what was your credible alternative to a solution without a vaccine, and when could we expect this to occur.

I do not mean to labor that point, I have asked it often enough here of late without any viable credible answer, so if you just do not have an answer, then fair enough.

you know a famous NON scientist once said if you stare at the tip of a finger too long you focus so much that you miss all the other possibilities.. This is the problem I have with your thought process. You're demanding " Anti VAX" minded folk should offer up a viable alternative to the Vaccine..here's one for you, what makes you think there should be one?? there was none in 1918, not a sign on one at the plague around the fall of the roman empire, there was none when one 3rd Europe were pulling at their armpits and groins, squeezing oozing buboes!! the sheer arrogance that something scientist actually promote as being so very deadly, can be turned off in the worlds fastest race for a vaccine since the scramble for the final golden ticket in willy wonka, is laughable

nature moves in waves and when a Tsunami hits, the weakest and oldest, will be taken more easily..the subsequent waves are a little less harsh and will take less due to stronger and yes younger swimmers being able to thread water and see it through... I use that analogy and it helps me sleep ant night.. every now and again a new wave comes and when we don't see it, we're caught off guard but I don't for one minute believe this is our meteor Vs the dinosaurs moment so we need to just let it take it's course because the resistance alone is self evident as to the affects mentally on BOARDS.ie alone...even I admit that.

charlie14 · 17-10-2020 05:35PM

MadYaker wrote: »

The pfizer one looks like it might be ready to go by early/mid 2021. The swedes seem optimistic anyway https://www.thelocal.se/20201015/heres-in-what-order-stockholmers-will-get-vaccinated-for-coronavirus

What will slow down the rollout isn't vaccine development, that is almost done, its making the numbers of doses needed that will take time. Manufacturing vaccines isn't the same as manufacturing cars or even prescription drugs.

The leading candidates have quite a few million ready to go.
With how confident Sweden seem to be on their 6 million with a further option on 2 million, AstraZeneca alone seem to have quite a few ready so I would not expect the others to be any different.

Micky 32 · 17-10-2020 05:38PM

walus wrote: »

From experience I know that things that haven’t been done before I.e. genuinely new products take longer and often way longer 2-4x than most people anticipate.

It’s not what i asked you And you were the one giving out earlier for no one answering your questions lol

walus · 17-10-2020 05:45PM

Micky 32 wrote: »

It’s not what i asked you And you were the one giving out earlier for no one answering your questions lol

Sorry, I was rushing out the door and missed a part of your post. I think the next 6 months will be exactly as they are now. From spring we will start adopting Swedish approach. By then they would have it proven to the most stubborn sceptics that how they have done it is the only reasonable and balanced way for the live of us all to continue.

To do so it will take a change of personnel at nphet. If Tony doesn’t get a chop today/soon (which he should) he is going to see it through the winter and into spring. By that time Sweden will be completely out of the woods.

Edit: And why on earth would I hope that vaccine wouldn’t work? Completely puzzled here.

MadYaker · 17-10-2020 05:54PM

3xh wrote: »

But we never will know. You need to know how many people had it to work out the death rate.

Doing the sum now or in 10 years doesn't change anything.

That is actually true, though we will have a much more accurate estimate than we do now.

Blut2 · 17-10-2020 06:07PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Like everywhere else during the earlier height of the epidemic they closed down much of their screening programmes and surgical services.
But that is not what I was asking.
In March the architect of their strategy Johan Giesecke said they would have herd immunity within a month or two. That was what I was referring to when I asked, how is that working out.

How do you explain the complete dropoff in Swedish deaths, given their policy hasn't changed at all, other than herd immunity?

Their daily deaths quite clearly started declining from mid-April onwards, which would suggest that prediction of "within a month or two" was spot on.

moonage · 17-10-2020 06:09PM

MadYaker wrote: »

The pfizer one looks like it might be ready to go by early/mid 2021.

Not only will the rushed vaccines not provide immunity, they also won't prevent serious disease:

"We all expect an effective vaccine to prevent serious illness if infected. Three of the vaccine protocols—Moderna, Pfizer, and AstraZeneca—do not require that their vaccine prevent serious disease, only that they prevent moderate symptoms which may be as mild as cough, or headache."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/09/23/covid-19-vaccine-protocols-reveal-that-trials-are-designed-to-succeed/#19a27f085247

These early vaccines seem a bit of a joke. This wouldn't be so bad if the vaccines were harmless, but corners have been cut in the safety testing.

_Kaiser_ · 17-10-2020 06:10PM

8 deaths they say... Oh but wait, 1 of those was in June and 2 in September he says on the 6.1

NPHET/HSE still playing with the numbers to justify the "advice" and scare people into accepting it it seems. I'm sure it's only a coincidence they're in with Micheal, Leo and Co as we speak :rolleyes:

I am more sick of this utter nonsense than I'm statistically ever likely to be from CV-19

walus · 17-10-2020 06:20PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

8 deaths they say... Oh but wait, 1 of those was in June and 2 in September he says on the 6.1

NPHET/HSE still playing with the numbers to justify the "advice" and scare people into accepting it it seems. I'm sure it's only a coincidence they're in with Micheal, Leo and Co as we speak :rolleyes:

I am more sick of this utter nonsense than I'm statistically ever likely to be from CV-19

I’m the same. The only benefit of this new normal that I can see is that my kids have never been so sniffle free for so long. I hope that this hands and surface cleaning habits continue beyond cv-19 period.

17-10-2020 06:25PM

8 deaths today, we need to buckle up and get serious about stopping this virus spread.

The open up brigade really need to take a long hard look at themselves when they see the death and pain that’s going to come of we don’t seriously lockdown and get this virus under control.

hynesie08 · 17-10-2020 06:27PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

8 deaths today, we need to buckle up and get serious about stopping this virus spread.

The open up brigade really need to take a long hard look at themselves when they see the death and pain that’s going to come of we don’t seriously lockdown and get this virus under control.

Except their wasn't, was there??

risteard7 · 17-10-2020 06:33PM

Without harping on but I'd honestly say more people have died in the last 3 months from 2nd hand smoke

Jizique · 17-10-2020 06:45PM

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

8 deaths they say... Oh but wait, 1 of those was in June and 2 in September he says on the 6.1

NPHET/HSE still playing with the numbers to justify the "advice" and scare people into accepting it it seems. I'm sure it's only a coincidence they're in with Micheal, Leo and Co as we speak :rolleyes:

I am more sick of this utter nonsense than I'm statistically ever likely to be from CV-19

Any age given on the deaths? Any of them under 85? Any underlying issues?

SusieBlue · 17-10-2020 06:45PM

There was a woman on the local radio yesterday from Cork who was unwell earlier this year so got a referral for a gynaecologist, who discovered a ‘shadow’ on her womb. The consultant said she would need further tests to determine what the issue was, but then we went into lockdown and her follow up appointments were cancelled.

She finally got seen to in august where she learned that the ‘shadow’ had turned into a tumour the size of a watermelon over that space of time, and spread to other areas of her body too.
She’s now had to have a full hysterectomy and is waiting to find out if her cancer is terminal or not.

She is a young woman with two small children. She won’t be the first or last to become seriously ill due to missed appointments and cancer screenings during these dragged out lockdowns.
The fact that this woman and many others couldn’t access necessary healthcare for 6 months is an absolute disgrace and complete inexcusable.

Why does their health not matter? Why do their deaths not matter? Why is coronavirus more important than their suffering?

It’s beyond selfish and heartless to expect people to go without healthcare for months on end instead of just having those who are at risk cocoon. It’s so so selfish. Coronavirus isn’t the only illness or the most important illness a person can get.

There is no balance whatsoever here.
The cost of the sacrifices we are making is way too high and I guarantee after the inevitable tribunals in a few years we will look back in horror at how we allowed thousands of young people die preventable deaths, sacrificing them and their futures under the false premise of ‘saving lives’ from coronavirus.

There seems to be a lot more anger and opposition out there the last few days. For every one comment I’ve seen supporting the idea of level 5, I’ve seen at least 10 against it.
Hopefully this is the start of the tide turning against King Tony.

Kermit.de.frog · 17-10-2020 06:52PM

A leaked letter suggests Wales going in to full lockdown on the 23rd. From the Guardian

The Welsh Government will announce on Monday a ‘circuit break’ lockdown to begin at 1800 on Friday 23 October and continue in force until 0001 on Monday 9 November.

We have met with officials this morning, but as this is a very fast moving situation with decisions still to be made by ministers, much of the detail has not yet been agreed by the Government.

Nevertheless I wanted to let you know what we know so far.

However, it seems quite likely the whole UK will enter lockdown in the next two weeks. Across Europe measures are being taken or about to be taken.

Ireland is FAR from alone in it's measures. Time to quash that untruth.

MadYaker · 17-10-2020 06:56PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

There seems to be a lot more anger and opposition out there the last few days. For every one comment I’ve seen supporting the idea of level 5, I’ve seen at least 10 against it.
Hopefully this is the start of the tide turning against King Tony.

People have been saying that in this thread since the beginning. Its the slowest tide I've ever seen.

facehugger99 · 17-10-2020 06:56PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

8 deaths today, we need to buckle up and get serious about stopping this virus spread.

The open up brigade really need to take a long hard look at themselves when they see the death and pain that’s going to come of we don’t seriously lockdown and get this virus under control.

There was probably around 88 deaths today.

Only 5 of these were people with Covid.

The rest died of cancer or heath disease or strokes.

They didn't make the news headlines so let's not worry about them.

walus · 17-10-2020 06:56PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

However, it seems quite likely the whole UK will enter lockdown in the next two weeks. Across Europe measures are being taken or about to be taken.

Ireland is FAR from alone in it's measures. Time to quash that untruth.

At the same time instead of short circuiting their lives Sweden will be putting up Christmas lights soon. Christ, I might actually go there for Christmas. A bit of snow and normal life wouldn’t do any harm I’d say.

JoeA3 · 17-10-2020 06:58PM

A fair and balanced sum up of the disillusionment among Joe public - by RTE’s Fergal Bowers:

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1016/1172039-fergal-bowers-analysis/

SusieBlue · 17-10-2020 06:58PM

Those countries enjoyed some bit of normality and businesses there had opportunities to earn some revenue during the summer months.
Meanwhile here there were days where we had less than 5 cases a day and no deaths and still the government still wouldn’t entertain the idea of letting some industries open up.
We all knew the cases would go up when society reopened, and we all knew that this illness spreads more in winter/flu season, I remember this being discussed on these threads back in April.

So what did we do?
We kept many industries closed for the whole summer, back when it actually WAS safe to open, only to briefly allow them to reopen in autumn, to close them again a few weeks later when flu season begins and the schools go back.
Which was absolutely idiotic and a really stupid move from the government.

We should have been open for business while every other country was, when the cases were negligible during the summer. If we had actually gotten a break from all this and businesses had a chance to recover from the first lockdown there wouldn’t be so much opposition but you can see why people & businesses are fatigued from it.
We’re barely out of the first one and we’re back for another round. Meanwhile in other parts of Europe you could go for a pint in the pub a solid two months before you could get your dog groomed in Ireland.
What an absolute joke.

FintanMcluskey · 17-10-2020 06:59PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Ireland is FAR from alone in it's measures. Time to quash that untruth.

Ireland is alone and has been since June.

They may have company if what you quoted is correct

Some_Person · 17-10-2020 06:59PM

Jorge Limited Maze wrote: »

8 deaths today, we need to buckle up and get serious about stopping this virus spread.

The open up brigade really need to take a long hard look at themselves when they see the death and pain that’s going to come of we don’t seriously lockdown and get this virus under control.

Funny that you didn't give a damn about deaths from standard flu every year before this nonsense started, nevermind all other types of illness treatments and appointments that were cancelled due to these lockdowns.

Life went on as normal before this propaganda induced hysteria.

SusieBlue · 17-10-2020 07:00PM

MadYaker wrote: »

People have been saying that in this thread since the beginning. Its the slowest tide I've ever seen.

The change in attitude is undeniable, this lockdown will get nowhere near the same level of adherence, compliance or public support as the first one.
The public buy in simply isn’t there this time around.

MadYaker · 17-10-2020 07:02PM

I suspect you'll be completely wrong again but ok.

Kermit.de.frog · 17-10-2020 07:04PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

The change in attitude is undeniable, this lockdown will get nowhere near the same level of adherence, compliance or public support as the first one.
The public buy in simply isn’t there this time around.

Then even stricter measures will be needed. I dont think anyone wants that either.

I completely disagree that public backing is not there either going on opinion polls. Most wanted increased measures before now.

Most people are not selfish in this regard and will actually follow the rules to protect the health of themselves and others.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VI - Read OP for Mod Warnings